Indians and Democracy/Secularism - can someone explain something to me?

[afriend]

hehe, i stopped reading after that, so it comes to this again, it seems you illustrate my initial post rather well.

tell me one thing, how on earth can one person so effusively gush about
being wonderfully democratic/secular and then in the very next moment produce a racial/religious stereotype that is so very antithetical to what he preaches?

From what i have read, r3alist, i am sorry to say, you are just beating around the bush with the prejudice that you have about India. Generalisation is the problem that we have here. I am sure you have heard good comments from India members, but instead of framing an opinion from diverse posts coming in from Indian's, it sad that you chose to frame an opinion from the bad ones.

 

[r3alist]

The same way you guys can gush on and on about Islamic tolerance while systematically ensuring your country "cleanses" itself over the past 6 decades of all non-Islamic "kafirs" (or nearly all ..... no one's perfect ).

And of course, the sheer irony of a Pakistani wanting to "discuss" "genuinely" Democracy and Secularism with an Indian would not be lost on you too I am sure! LOL

Cheers, Doc

you do realise that most of your posts on this thread clearly validate my initial post yet here you are i presume trying to argue against it.

 

[r3alist]

From what i have read, r3alist, i am sorry to say, you are just beating around the bush with the prejudice that you have about India. Generalisation is the problem that we have here. I am sure you have heard good comments from India members, but instead of framing an opinion from diverse posts coming in from Indian's, it sad that you chose to frame an opinion from the bad ones.

your charge that i have prejudcues about india are unsunstantiated, are they not?

also, that particular person was rather shrill about telling us what he was and was not, only to be taking bull all this time, i felt it was apropriate to point this out since it validates my post.

 

[vsdoc]

you do realise that most of your posts on this thread clearly validate my initial post yet here you are i presume trying to argue against it.

I realise a number of things my friend, an important one being that contrary to popular opinion, education and jingoism can and often do go hand in hand.

As for your assumption above, that is your opinion and you are of course welcome to it.

When you are in less of a preaching mode, and more open to honest give-n-take, you will be surprised by responses to the same question your first post dealt with.

Till then, you can continue to

Cheers, Doc

 

[r3alist]

As for your assumption above, that is your opinion and you are of course welcome to it.

its not really subject to question or debate.

you talk about how secular and democratic you are only to come out with a racial/religious stereotype the next sentence.

from that moment on everything you can say or have said on this thread can be logically discarded.

 

[vsdoc]

from that moment on everything you can say or have said on this thread can be logically discarded.

That is your prerogative my friend.

For my part, I am pretty clear in my mind where me and my countrymen stand on these issues, and would welcome a debate with EVEN Pakistanis (as mentioned before, them being the last people on earth qualified as worthy opponents in said debate) provided its with open minds on both sides, evidence of which has been sorely lacking in this thread and others elsewhere.

And just to clarify, i am not stereotyping your race or your religion, but your nationality and your people, as too you started this thread of yours with stereotyping mine.

Cheers, Doc

POST NOTE: Having said my piece, I will excuse myself voluntarily from this non-value-adding exercise and adopt the stand of discretion being the better part of valour as I approach my 100th post here ..... wanting it to be of some substance, unlike our recent exchange.

 

[r3alist]

(as mentioned before, them being the last people on earth qualified as worthy opponents in said debate)

can some indians please stop this guy from talking on this thread, he is embarassing you lot

And just to clarify, i am neither stereotyping your race or your religion, but your nationality and your people, as too you started this thread of yours with mine.

once again, someone put this guy out of his misery and tell him to have a nap.


his next post will be about the universalist principles he has, lol.

 

[afriend]

Well, vsdoc, i respect your posts, but i would say, sterotyping a nation is not right, and that is what our dear friend who started this thread was trying to do, and now i am afraid you also are doing.

I am of an opinion, that an r3alist doesn't make pakistan, and afriend doesnt make india.

And r3alist and vsdoc, we should spend more time here and see the diverse nature of comments, you definitely can see both sides of the spectrum's from both countries.

 

[r3alist]

but i would say, sterotyping a nation is not right, and that is what our dear friend who started this thread was trying to do

no no, i feel you are quite wrong on this.


i put a question to our indian posters, i made no definitive statements and i qualified my remarks to an extent by saying this is the impression i have got, "so lets discuss".

some people like vsdoc have perfectly demonstrated my contention, some have imo not, i am making no closed stereotype and i certainly do not intend to.

 

[praveen]

About Stereotypes

Stereotypes/Generalisations are derived by situations .Which need to be explained and explanations draw on analyses of the evidence, providing generalizations that derive from the logic of the argument. With new evidence or fresh interpretations of existing evidence, a new understanding of the past can be achieved. But interpretations have to conform to the basic requirements of using reliable evidence, analytical methods and arguments drawing on logic.
Not my words but thats how the things are.

 

[praveen]

Now first things first, please dont take this as having a pop at india, I am just asking a query.

Fine

There is something that puzzles me a great deal about indians and their democratic and secularist epithet - they dont seem to understand or grasp the notion themselves imo.

They understood the notion very much.It was the belief in the democratic notion .That pulled us out of the cesspool we were
at independence

I base this on the premise that 90% of the time, whenever india is mentioned in such a way that demonstrates india is not behaving in a secularist/democratic way they always bring pakistan into it and how crap pakistan is in such and such a way (not always unfairly so i should add).

But what on earth have pakistani affairs got to do with indian credentials as a credible and strong secular/democratic nation?

Their POV is pakistan should never question a belief which it never believed or practiced:Secularism and Democracy

Is pakistan india's benchmark?

NO,never

Why does pakistan need to be a factor in indian issues?

Major factor in internal security.

Then this leads me to my next query, why do indians get so defensive about any criticism.

Do they not understand that to be secularist and democratic is to invite and acknowledge faults in your society?

If the faults were shown by someone who believes those
beliefs it is very much welcome .But from others no

As such I have come to a conclusion that whilst india is still definitely a democracy it as an "immature" one whose people largely do not understand it or worse still they do not wish to fully understand and implement it, instead they use it as just an epithet to bolster its image rather than genuinely act upon and implement its universal principles - this is and can have a very dangerous effect imo.

How did you come to such an opinion

 

[hembo]

Why democracy works in India ?


```
After that we had good leaders like Rajiv gandhi,VP Singh,Narsimha Rao, Vajpyee and MMS
``````

V P Singh, a good leader???

You must have been sleeping throughout his very short tenure as PM. He has done India worst damage in his short tenure then anyone else. By allowing the "Mandal commission" on reservation, he had taken India backward by atleast 20 years. BTW, I am an OBC.

 

[praveen]

V P Singh, a good leader???

You must have been sleeping throughout his very short tenure as PM. He has done India worst damage in his short tenure then anyone else. By allowing the "Mandal commission" on reservation, he had taken India backward by atleast 20 years. BTW, I am an OBC.

My friend he gave extraordinary powers to the Election Comission.The Election Comission is in the present manner due to the reforms he initiated.

Positive discrimination is necessasary my friend.Look at the south Andhra and Tamil nadu had reservation from the 80's itself just look at the development among the BC's in these two states and compare
it to rest of India you will know what I mean.I even suggest Intra reservation among the BC's based on economic,social and regional factors .Intra competition among the BC's will itself ensure that the best come out themselves.

Besides I am an OC and I hail from Andhra

 

[r3alist]

Their POV is pakistan should never question a belief which it never believed or practiced:Secularism and Democracy

If the faults were shown by someone who believes those
beliefs it is very much welcome .But from others no

you see, this just goes to clearly illustrate my contention, you just dont understand what you preach, you dont get it.

why can an individual pakistani not have a view on something in india (that is to say their universal right according to your own beliefs) just because some indians have some type of racial/religious steroetypes on that individual which according to them excludes them from universalist principles, it (you and others) make no sense at all, you contradict yourself and hold contrarian views in the same breath.

you seriously seem to believe that every pakistani is an air tight container of your (indian) perceptions/stereotypes therefore he/she is excluded from voicing an opinion/fact -because thats the perception you have of pakistani's - then in the next sentence you will talk about universal principles.


so then, what do you make of american criticisms towards india then?

i dont hear anyone here approving them as valid.

How did you come to such an opinion

what you just said completely validates my contention.

on the one hand you talk about india being democratic (and how pakistan or pakistani's are not), on the other hand you think certain people do not have democratic rights, proof by contradiction. QED.

 

[Durran3]

I've been saying this for quiet sometime that people need to stay on topic and discuss the issues relevent to that topic rather than justifying your answers by merely comparing your country with another country. This applies to Both Pakistani's and Indians

@Realist

Your beating a dead horse again and again and have constantly failed to refute any of Vsdoc's arguments. I am assuming you either didn't read his posts carefully or like you said that you never bothered reading after a supposedly racial remark which i didn't find racially offensive at all and neither should anyone else with half a brain. Pakistani's ARE generally brought up to be a little anti-indian, its pretty evident in our education system whether you like it or not. Those who are perusing A-levels tend to be a bit better than those who are brought in a strict conservative educational environment. I know from personal experiences and from the Pakistan studies courseware which more or less shows a very biased perspective. I fail to see how by pointin that out, its a racially offensive remark. Would you like to elaborate please?

And by you going in circles again and again i fail to see the point of this thread because it seems you either are not going to agree with anyone, which is fine or your just arguing for the sake of argument