Indian strategic thinking and Pakistan.

[Ticker]

There is no evidence of this.

You need to read books written by your own.

No,they cannot change the demography of N-E.

Visit the thread on recent Assam violence and see what the Indians are quoting and saying.

Sir,Congrats on your biggest achievent that "you are still here"..Care to tell me how is it an achievement..Did India ever announce that it is going to destroy pakistan on so and so date?

Almost every Indian here threatens to destroy Pakistan. Even the Indian leaders have made such statements. Despite your attempts and threats, we are here.

Regarding poverty..we are working on it.We were much poorer when we got independence.We cant leave all the development to eradicate poverty.It will take some time but it will surely be eradicated.

Tell me when it does. It wont happen in my life time.

Thank you..You may continue as well.

OK.

Noone captured Sikkim.The IA didnt force them to join us.

And you want us to believe that they did it voluntarily. dah.

What should we do in your opinion..Attack evryone in the neighbourhood.We are a peace loving nation.

If you don't want to threaten and attack or threaten your neighbourhood, then why keep the third largest force in the world with offensive weaponry.

Who said i am angry?..I am not in a mushaira here.

Oh so mushairas get you angry - I don't like'em either.

Our Army cares for its citizens so it is worried..It is not like other armies who want to commit suicide and take the entire nation alongwith them.

Your army does not have to go to war with its neighbours to kill people, it kill Indians in scores instead. AFSPA allows it to kill as many as they want and nobody can challenge them.

Post a good picture and not a wishful 2050 capability that you seek to achieve in 3000.

We have our problems..atleast we dont send people to kill innocents across the border.We are fighting our own problems..We are not being someones problem atleast.

Your army does not have to go to war with its neighbours to kill people, it kill Indians in scores instead. AFSPA allows it to kill as many as they want and nobody can challenge them.

Why is your country unable to share the evidence of India's involvement in the International communtiy then?Do what we did after 26/11..Everyone knows Kasab is a Pakistani.

The information has been shared with concerned countries in the world. Everybody knows Sarabjit Singh as well and many more much before kasab came to be known.

The fact of the matter is that you have no evidence...OTOH the world knows that Pakistan was involved in bombing the indian embassy in Kabul.It is for no reasons that Countries ask you to take action against the terrorists again and again.

There are terrorists in FATA area. Our army is conducting operations against them and those who are being supported by the Indians to perpetrate terror inside Pakistan.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

You need to read books written by your own.

I dont read books but can you name a few i should look up for that particular incident.

Visit the thread on recent Assam violence and see what the Indians are quoting and saying.

They are over reacting.They are not in so big numbers that the entire demography can be changed.

Almost every Indian here threatens to destroy Pakistan. Even the Indian leaders have made such statements. Despite your attempts and threats, we are here.

Sane Indians want a peaceful relationship if and only if its possible.Not of the kind where A.B Vajpayee went on a bus to Lahore and we got Kargil in return.Financing terrorists has to stop.

Tell me when it does. It wont happen in my life time.

It wont if you are 96 years old.

And you want us to believe that they did it voluntarily. dah.

Why isnt there a freedom movement going on there then?

If you don't want to threaten and attack or threaten your neighbourhood, then why keep the third largest force in the world with offensive weaponry.

To protect our vast coastline and islands.To protect our sea routes.

Post a good picture and not a wishful 2050 capability that you seek to achieve in 3000.

Whats the need for me to make the effort.Visit the Indian Defence thread everyday and you will get to know.BTW news of the day is that IA ordered 100 155mm 45 calibre arty guns besides the 145 M777 on order..People were criticising our Artillery..In a few years we will sort it out too.

The information has been shared with concerned countries in the world. Everybody knows Sarabjit Singh as well and many more much before kasab came to be known.

Sarabjit Singh didnt kill 200 Pakistanis.I hope you know to differentiate between people like Sarabjit Singh and Ajmal Kasab.

There are terrorists in FATA area. Our army is conducting operations against them and those who are being supported by the Indians to perpetrate terror inside Pakistan.

Kindly provide the evidence here also.I can post video of surendered Pakistani terrorists if you want...Can you?

 

[Ticker]

@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

ha ha ha ......

I won't post any more replies to this going around in circles game.

Cheers!

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

ha ha ha ......

I won't post any more replies to this going around in circles game.

Cheers!

Atleast post the name of the book where i can read about the Gymkhana incident.

 

[Contrarian]

Beautiful thread...gone down the drain.
Im inclined to blame Ticker.

 

[Ticker]

Beautiful thread...gone down the drain.
Im inclined to blame Ticker.

Because I responded to opinions expressed against my initial post in response to @Ban Galore. And then when I saw that it was not going anywhere with @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR, I pulled out.

And you only blame me for spoiling it. OK.

Reinvigorate it with your opinion instead of positing blame.

 

[Nassr]

Beautiful thread...gone down the drain.
Im inclined to blame Ticker.

Sir,
I am sorry, I would tend to disagree with you. A civil discussion amongst knowledgeable people having divergent opinion is always refreshing. @Ticker and @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR, contrarily, kept the discussion alive and the two should not be criticised for expressing their opinion, whatever it may be. Infact, I would like to appreciate @Ticker for realising that probably the discussion is going nowhere and he said so. I would also like to appreciate @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR, for being a good sport for a nice reply to end the discussion.

I believe that there still is a lot left in this very good thread indeed, and nobody who came here has acted as a spoiler.

Thank you gentlemen for expressing your opinions, particularly @ajtr for starting this interesting thread, @Jinx1, @Joe Shearer, @notorious_eagle and many others who made the discussion worthwhile indeed.

 

[dragger]

We have our problems..atleast we dont send people to kill innocents across the border.We are fighting our own problems..We are not being someones problem atleast.



Why is your country unable to share the evidence of India's involvement in the International communtiy then?Do what we did after 26/11..Everyone knows Kasab is a Pakistani.

The fact of the matter is that you have no evidence...OTOH the world knows that Pakistan was involved in bombing the indian embassy in Kabul.It is for no reasons that Countries ask you to take action against the terrorists again and again.[/QUOTE]

How wrong I was when I wrote that you are ill-informed. In fact you are grossly ill-informed. You suffer from total lack of information/knowledge about your own house. You just remember the name of Kasab but you would not ever mention the names of those who blasted 'Samjhota Express' within your own country. Let me give you some information. This clipping is from an Indian newspaper:

"NEW DELHI: Hindu extremists carried out the 2007 false flag attack on the Samjhauta Express, which was previously blamed on Muslim groups, local reports said citing police interrogation of an arrested suspect.

They said Kamal Chauhan, a disgruntled worker of the Hindu revivalist Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh (RSS, National Volunteer Corp), was arrested on Sunday by the National Intelligence Agency (NIA) from Noida near Delhi.

According to the NIA, Mr Chauhan had planted the bombs on board the Samjhauta Express after undergoing training in arms and explosives in Haryana and Madhya Pradesh."

You may say that these people did not kill innocent people. Unfortunately there is a tendency in India to blame Pakistan on every thing or any thing happening in India. This is exactly what they did after Samjhota Express blast.
"World" knows that Pakistan was involved in bombing of Indian Embassy in Kabul? Which "world"? The problem is that all Indians are living in that "world". Others do nor resort to such insane blame game, so they live in a different world.
I would suggest that you get some information and knowledge about Indian activities in and around Pakistan. You may be having some friends in the "relevant quarters". Once you gain sufficient knowledge then your thinking and approach would become more positive and constructive.
Till then have a smile and a glass of cold water:

 

[deltacamelately]

They are reading us just right. It ain't 9 fronts for nothings....the adversary's motivation must diminish, not replenish.

1. India-China- Burma three country border; - Democratic India feeding the Junta isn't by choice.
I believe the motivation was elsewhere; our MEA is the fifth greatest enemy of Indian military capability, after the PLA, PA, the Indian political class and the IAS.

However, the effect is what could have been wished for.

There is precious little else India can do vis-a-vis China, while considering the Burmese front. That the GoI is still feeding the Junta implies, that it must have secured tangible assurances therein. Its fool hardy to assume otherwise.

2. Eastern Arunachal - the Walong sector; - Mostly academic.
Why so? Although the Indian resistance in 1962 was far more effective than people realize, it is still almost sure that in case the PLA attacks, it will do so at least on one main front and another feint. Within the Arunachal sector, or front, another attack in eastern Arunachal is a distinct possibility.

The Dong Hill East of Lohit river, Maha Plateau, Ladders West of Lohit river, Dong plateau, Lachman Ridge, Slopes of Dong Hill are the probable thrust points and we have committed the requisite forces in advance, not to mention our established presence in Richu, East Ridge, Kibithoo, and the Ladders areas. So it will at best be an academic discussion on what the PLA can possibly commit and what we already have.

3. Western Arunachal - the Tawang sector; - Short of Namka Chu and Thagla.
I did not understand. This is our most vulnerable sector.

Yes that's what I implied, Namka Chu and Thagla. Short of that they can do precious little.

4. Bhutan; - NA
Again, not understood. Do you mean not applicable? Why so? Why would the PLA refrain from violating the neutrality of Bhutan, if only on the grounds of existing Indian military presence there?

No Arguments.

5. Sikkim; - NA
Are you saying that this is the least vulnerable due to the fierce concentration of XXXIII Corps on this sector?

Ditto. However, the XXXIII are sitting pretty and they have their job cut-out perfectly.

6. Nepal; - The International Community will bring down hell for the PRC.
Imagine a scenario where a Maoist regime actually invites them in.

Besides, the PLA has a huge temptation to overcome. Following the clash between the two Army factions, when General Panag was summarily transferred to Central Command, that command was simultaneously emasculated. There is nothing to oppose the PLA rolling down to the Gangetic Plain, horse, foot and artillery.

The Nepalese military establishment has very strong traditional ties with the IA, not something that the PLA enjoys. PLA rolling down the plains will first and foremost devastate the logistical tail and tie-up their forces till annihilation. A sizeable portion of the Nepalese population doesn't views India in the same colour, as does the Nepalese Maoists. It is thus unlikely that the Chinese would embark upon a military misadventure in Nepal, like they did in Vietnam in 1979. China wanted to teach Vietnam a lesson, but got a bloody nose instead. In that kind of scenario the international community will not stand by, nor will the IA.

7. Uttaranchal/Himachal; - The Lowest / Least battle incentive choice for the PLA.
I wholly disagree, except from the point of view of it being an extra stretch for the PLA, in terms of logistics.

You tell me, which PLA Division has its ORBAT and Logistics geared to that end?

8. Southern Ladakh - Pangong Tso to Lahaul-Spiti border; - The Lake is allowed free for boating by them, NOT by us.
Not clear. We are vulnerable here, being at the end of our supply chain, while it is also one of the two sectors where the Chinese can deploy armour.

So would we. And the Lake and the terrain in question is a BIG equalizer.

9. Northern Ladakh - Nubra Valley to Pangong Two. - They still need the road, we just need a landslide.
Are you referring to the Aksai Chin road? Yes, they do need it, an there is precious little we can do about it. Th reference to a landslide was not clear. If it is still a reference to the Aksai Chin road, I am surprised. That road runs through a cold desert plain, with hundreds of kilometres of flat land on either side.

I think I didn't make myself clear here. What it means is, its only a Landslide that hinders our troop movement getting up the heights. And slides are manageable. They require that supply road open round the year, which will be prone so much so, that it can jolly well become a nightmare for the PLA engineers.

 

[Jinx1]

The thread has generated some very interesting discussion.

Indian strategy with regard to military operations in NE India has been discussed at some length. However, their military operations along western Nepalese border and Leh area have not been given ample treatment. Particularly with regard to Chinese actions and Indian response.

The thing which seems to have been left out almost completely is the Indian Army’s offensive against Pakistan.

It has been discussed that the war against Pakistan would be short and intense.

This, due to the reason that the Indian forces would be needed for Chinese front after taking care of Pakistan.

The objectives would be shallow in order to avoid crossing of Pakistan’s nuclear thresholds.

The aim of such operations may not only be capturing of territory, but also the destruction of Pakistani Armed Forces, which incidentally is also one of the declared Pakistani nuclear thresholds.

Which means that the destruction or degradation element will have to be carefully calibrated, in order to avoid crossing of this declared nuclear threshold.

If all the objectives of Indian Army are not achieved, some of the additional forces needed for Chinese front may not be available.

Pakistan may still be left with considerable strength to conduct operations inside Indian territory and or to reclaim the lost territory.

What would be depth of these shallow objectives. Will it be 70-90 km deep as practiced by Indian Army in some of their exercises.

Or will the depth of these objectives be further reduced.

What will be total strength of Indian offensive in a two front war environment against Pakistan. In earlier cases when the Chinese front was peaceful, forces from NE India and other places along the Chinese border would be relocated against Pakistan.

This may not happen and would result in reduced strength for the offensive. Is shallow objectives is the answer in this case.

If in case, the Chinese front remains peaceful, would India still relocate forces from Chinese front, and if so, how much additional strength would then be made available.

And in such a case, would the objectives still remain shallow.

The PAF has considerably improved its response capability. Would the IAF be able to effectively support the Indian Army as well as be able to launch counter air operations against both China and Pakistan or against either one, when either of the two fronts is peaceful.

How would Indian Navy’s response unfold. Will it be able to effect a naval blockade against Pakistan as well as respond to Chinese naval threat.

These are some very interesting questions that arise.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I have to disagree on some of these. My response is broken up into the constituent elements of the theaters.

There is precious little else India can do vis-a-vis China, while considering the Burmese front. That the GoI is still feeding the Junta implies, that it must have secured tangible assurances therein. Its fool hardy to assume otherwise.

The point is that the Junta does not exercise complete control over these areas. A large section of the Sino-Burmese border is taken up by the Kachin State, and to its south south-east, bordering Arunachal and Nagaland, is a state with Shan and Naga minorities, Sagaing State. How will the Junta assure us, or the Chinese for that matter, of control over the robust Kacjhin Independent Army? Our diplomacy will not permit us to make direct contact with insurgent elements among the Kachin and the Shan. Is Chinese diplomacy similarly inhibited?

These regions are wide open to purchase or to subversion; we will take them for granted in a military sense only at great risk.

 

[Nassr]

I have to disagree on some of these. My response is broken up into the constituent elements of the theaters.

There is precious little else India can do vis-a-vis China, while considering the Burmese front. That the GoI is still feeding the Junta implies, that it must have secured tangible assurances therein. Its fool hardy to assume otherwise.

The point is that the Junta does not exercise complete control over these areas. A large section of the Sino-Burmese border is taken up by the Kachin State, and to its south south-east, bordering Arunachal and Nagaland, is a state with Shan and Naga minorities, Sagaing State. How will the Junta assure us, or the Chinese for that matter, of control over the robust Kacjhin Independent Army? Our diplomacy will not permit us to make direct contact with insurgent elements among the Kachin and the Shan. Is Chinese diplomacy similarly inhibited?

These regions are wide open to purchase or to subversion; we will take them for granted in a military sense only at great risk.
Original Post By deltacamelately

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...tegic-thinking-pakistan-10.html#ixzz22IfRr2jh


To add to your comment,

The Chinese are also in direct contact with these tribes or people in these regions, in addition to maintaining relations with the Burmese government. To quote a recent occurrence, when Burmese troops launched some operations in these areas and the refugees started moving in to Chinese territory, the Chinese government reacted with anger towards Burmese government's operations. The Burmese government had to scale down their effort.

This indeed shows interest of Chinese in these areas, not only with regard to various types of exports for which these areas are needed, but also in order to keep these people on their side for political as well as military needs.

Therefore, the Indian government's policies to placate the Burmese government only, may fall short in achieving their objectives.

 

[Joe Shearer]

To continue, and I hope Nassr keeps on taking an interest in these preliminaries to deliberating policy on the western front -

The Dong Hill East of Lohit river, Maha Plateau, Ladders West of Lohit river, Dong plateau, Lachman Ridge, Slopes of Dong Hill are the probable thrust points and we have committed the requisite forces in advance, not to mention our established presence in Richu, East Ridge, Kibithoo, and the Ladders areas. So it will at best be an academic discussion on what the PLA can possibly commit and what we already have.

Not to be condescending, but this is a startlingly detailed and knowledgeable summary, with some loss of detail inevitable in a summary.

My comment, supportive in this case, is that while the choice of points to defend is a tactical issue, I would hope to see a well-articulated and WELL-REHEARSED doctrine for defense of these points, their set-up and mutual interdependence to allow aerial support for supplies, and the response to the initial thrusts, it is hoped from a mobile reserve well-placed to move to the point of greatest strategic impact, rapidly, with sufficient force.

Until the doctrine is in place - and there is no sign of it - and until we have enough rotary wing aircraft to ship at least a brigade to the hot spot, it remains, to me, a work in progress.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Atleast post the name of the book where i can read about the Gymkhana incident.

The Indian Army Chief, Gen. J. N. Chaudhry was so confident of defeating the Pakistani troops guarding the area and capturing Lahore that he announced to all and sundry that he would have a large peg of whisky at the Lahore Gymkhana Club in the evening of the 6th.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/7154-1965-series-articles.html#ixzz22JD1BHCr

P.S. We are talking about a present or future confrontation, please keep the past out of it. Thanks

To continue, and I hope Nassr keeps on taking an interest in these preliminaries to deliberating policy on the western front -

I agree. It would be nice to have a discussion regarding IA's policy on the Western front. I think it would be wise if we talk a bit about the Cold Start Doctrine. It appears that IA is keen to adopt and implement this strategy on the battlefield. What i cannot get my head around is what exactly are going to be IA's objectives? Anything less than destruction of Pakistan's offensive capabilities will keep India's Western flank perpetually vulnerable. The more i read into India's planning, the more i am amazed about China. China has managed to successfully check mate India by propping up Pakistan. Instead of focussing all her might against China, India is forced to allocate the majority of her elite fighting units to deal with Pakistan. This strategy is simply a master piece. This makes sense why China always accepts every demand that is made by either of the three armed services of Pakistan.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The Indian Army Chief, Gen. J. N. Chaudhry was so confident of defeating the Pakistani troops guarding the area and capturing Lahore that he announced to all and sundry that he would have a large peg of whisky at the Lahore Gymkhana Club in the evening of the 6th.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/7154-1965-series-articles.html#ixzz22JD1BHCr

P.S. We are talking about a present or future confrontation, please keep the past out of it.

Sir, I beg to disobey for just a fleeting moment, to set the record right.

General Chaudhuri never made such a remark. This remark occurs again and again but only among PA circles, in all cases attributing it to the General's remark to a group of journalists. No such record exists in any journalist's account, there is no newspaper report, or radio broadcast confirming it. Mentions of this are purely Pakistani.

Lt. Gen. Lodhi has been cited in this case. General Lodhi is the patron of Defence Journal of Pakistan, and a nice man from all accounts, but not above a little light line-shooting from time to time. All his pieces delivered 'ex cathedra' are rather high-pitched propaganda pieces, denigrating the Indian Army - and Air Force and Navy - and not above some judicious slanting. His lead piece and the battlefield accounts, especially the SSG account , are flatly contradictory.

In contrast, General Chaudhuri, whom my parents knew personally, and under whose son I worked, was a taciturn officer, not given to talking out of turn. He was always a man of few words - like 'K', and Teppy Raina - and certainly not given to bombast! Note that I have not commented on other intervening Chiefs, in one case, because the man loved the sound of his own voice, and never failed to exercise his wit, to the quiet fury of his politician victims, in the other, because we honestly knew little about him personally.

I reiterate: there is no record, none whatever, of this apocryphal remark having actually been made, although it has consoled very heavy hearts on the other side of the border for years now.