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Indian strategic thinking and Pakistan.

My contention was, apart from the Thagla Ridge and Namka Chu, all other possible points of ingress are watched too. Its no more like what the IA forward units experienced back in 1962. The entire military intelligence was clueless about the PLA thrust points.

To borrow a quote from somebody - We still aren't aware of the exact names of the PLA Units tasked with the NEFA onslaught. I am sure such isn't the situation now.


I am not sure when did I challenge you on this? 62 was both a military as well as PR defeat. I just compared the situation then with what we have now, asserting simultaneously, that the IA was overrun not just because of superior PLA/inferior IA battle tactics, but majorly due to shortage of men and material. How do you explain troops getting deployed at 14000+ elevation in summer clothing, no acclimatization, weapons getting jammed, ammo running out with an operation underway and sundry? Or do you suggest otherwise?

Perhaps I got the wrong impression from this:

Post of the post overrun were not teneble because of shortage of men and material

And are you so sure, given the quality issues with the INSAS rifle, with ammunition shortages and with rations scandals which field officers should be among the first to flag, that the situation you have described will not recur?


How do you explain troops getting deployed at 14000+ elevation in summer clothing, no acclimatization, weapons getting jammed, ammo running out with an operation underway and sundry? Or do you suggest otherwise?
 
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I appear to have given offence in some way not clearly understood, so it seems better to leave these preliminary remarks aside until greater comprehension is achieved.

It is a failing of any brief note or comment that much valuable detail gets lost.

The PLA can afford to run rail lines right up until the border, since it has a high plateau to deal with, and sufficient ground between mountain ranges to build roads and railways. The IA cannot. It had entirely different terrain.

The intention was to convey the need to strengthen and expand existing lines, and allow more traffic to pass. The intention was also to enable strategic reserves from the left bank of the Brahmaputra to move forward fast and at lower cost than by lorry.

Both, as far as I can make out.

This will also address the popular demand for better roads in the hill country.

As for time frames, the background preparation, infrastructure building, re-orientation of troops, all such things considered, fitness to meet the needs of the northern border may take five years to bring about.

Delays taken into account, around five years is the estimate.

This is in any case necessary in order to try and put in place a permanent and lasting peace both on the west as well as on the north.

It is difficult to see dissuasive Strategy and deterrent strategy as working at cross purposes.

A purely dissuading strategy is not possible, because this region is well-populated, not thickly so, but enough to count in a democracy. Development has to come to the hills, along with infrastructure, so maintaining a wilderness as a defence is not much more than an accidental option, one which will disappear very shortly.

On the other hand, it is possible to postulate a fortress defence at known locations of geographic or strategic importance, coupled with a plan for swift and sufficient reinforcement on the direction of thrust and the dimensions of thrust of the enemy becoming clear, and with clear ideas about the critical tip-over point between defence and structured withdrawal.

Counter-attacks are seen as completely independent of this. But counter-attacks will also have to cope with the PLA's own tactics of flanking enemy positions, enfilading them and rolling them up from one end in a concentrated, asymmetric attack, while mounting ambushes on probable lines of retreat. Catching an enemy in flank who is himself moving fast to inflict flanking attacks on one's garrison troops, in mountain terrain, in the fog of war, with uncertain communications links in the mountains, is a hazardous task at best. It requires very high standards of physical effort, and of battlefield command abilities by field officers. Only a dedicated force, trained to the inch, can even think of pulling this off.

It has already been discussed that such a strategy may not be available for very long. However, to examine the potential of this partial capability scenario, we note that 1000 MT may be transported at a time. That defines the size of force that might intervene at a time. Of course, admittedly, this effort can be repeated after a gap, once enemy intentions become clearer, but it all depends on the size of the enemy effort, and it does not seem wise to keep such a partial capability in place.

Oho – no offence was meant or intended. I think, the light hearted comment got lost somewhere between, English, Urdu and Bengali languages. Ha ha ha

In the absence of having physically seen the areas under discussion, I am at a clear disadvantage and beyond a certain level my analysis may just be nothing more than being speculative.

I can merely make general comments about India-China military environment after having gained information from the discussion here. If I may, I will highlight some of these:

China’s defence effort is much bigger than that of India. This can pose a potent threat to India.

A major geographical imbalance places many of India’s political and economic centres close to the Himalayan Ranges.

Siliguri Corridor places India in a delicate position if there is uncertainty in the area.

Contrarily, almost all of China’s economic and political centres of gravity are in Eastern China though Tibet certainly is a sensitive region.

China has carried out major improvements in her logistical infrastructure in areas to support operations inside India.

The possibility of Chinese gaining a strategic surprise against India are indeed low, with fair bit of warning time available to India.

China is unlikely to embark on any major adventure to disturb the status-quo along the border in the near to mid-term future, unless events spiral out of control.

Indians feel that the Chinese would be able to deploy about 33 Divisions against them which indeed is a potent threat.

The Indians feel that as Chinese and Indian interests clash, Chinese may enhance military presence and may initiate support to insurgent groups in disputed areas.

The Chinese could also use Burmese territory to extend threat and may use Bay of Bengal for limited projection of power.

India is likely to follow a strategy of dissuasive defence. However, as dissuasion being a comparatively weaker option, it will be coupled with strategic offensive capability having a potent deterrence.

Indians are putting due emphasis on improved logistics infrastructure while reducing the teeth to tail ratio.

To gain appropriate warning time, India is enhancing its integrated surveillance capability linked with satellite based surveillance. Improved intelligence acquisition capability in particular collusion with Americans and allied Western nations.
 
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I am taken aback. How do you define a defeat? A post over-run is not a defeat? Then the arguments the Pakistanis use about Kargil hold good, that we used vastly superior force and hence it should not be considered their defeat or our victory.

What according to you happened in 62? a series of logistical failures?

I am not attempting to hijack the thread. But I would like to offer my view on this.

In my opinion, nuclear powers with strong armed forces like Pakistan and India, Kargil and 62 are setbacks and are not defeats.

I wont go beyond this because it entails a totally different debate.
 
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>And are you so sure, given the quality issues with the INSAS rifle, with ammunition shortages and with rations scandals which field officers should be among the first to flag, that the situation you have described will not recur?<


John Masters did his staff college in 1942. He either served in the staff college earlier or later, I don't remember, but mentions in his book, "A Road Past Mandalay", that the staff college is still the same; wife swapping parties still take place and the Quarter Master still sells the coal.

The Army doesn't stop functioning. The big machine keeps on churning and normally for the better, because the enemy doesn't let it. It learns from its past and prepares for the worst. If it doesn't, its not the army that loses, it is the nation that suffers.
 
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Perhaps I got the wrong impression from this:



And are you so sure, given the quality issues with the INSAS rifle, with ammunition shortages and with rations scandals which field officers should be among the first to flag, that the situation you have described will not recur?
Point taken. I am amply aware about the issues with the INSAS. I have personally debated over the designers inabilities and have laughed out over their continued efforts on coming out with the carbine version.

That being said, my whole contention throughout this debate, is the difference in posture and standing between 62 and today. The IA might not be superior to the PLA in this regards, however, the PLA too is nowhere close to its 62 standing, where it can overrun one post after another.

The Chola incident was not lost on anybody who mattered.
 
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There is one aspect which emerges from the discussion on this thread and in other Indian analyses as well. And this involves the confidence exhumed by the Indians in their ability including the ability of their armed forces. It indeed is noteworthy however, on many occasions this results in overlooking the improvements carried out by their adversaries and the resultant underestimation of the adversaries response capabilities.

This can also spring in a major surprise as enemy's capabilities are either not known in detail or if known are underestimated and therefore own capabilities are overestimated.
 
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There is one aspect which emerges from the discussion on this thread and in other Indian analyses as well. And this involves the confidence exhumed by the Indians in their ability including the ability of their armed forces. It indeed is noteworthy however, on many occasions this results in overlooking the improvements carried out by their adversaries and the resultant underestimation of the adversaries response capabilities.

This can also spring in a major surprise as enemy's capabilities are either not known in detail or if known are underestimated and therefore own capabilities are overestimated.

I am surprised to read this, after trying to convey the exact opposite in all my comments.

Ah, well, a salutary reminder. Back to the drawing board.
 
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I am surprised to read this, after trying to convey the exact opposite in all my comments.

Ah, well, a salutary reminder. Back to the drawing board.

No. You are one distinctive and singular gentleman whose analyses are realistic, very impressive and indeed worth reading. I don't include you in the general impressionists. You are a specialist with some more of your countrymen posting here and are impressive. You exhume knowledge, realism and prudence. There is a difference in what you analyse and what I see in general.
 
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I am surprised to read this, after trying to convey the exact opposite in all my comments.

Ah, well, a salutary reminder. Back to the drawing board.

Sir you indeed are an exception.

But if you read the comments of your fellow brethren, you will know what Jinx1 is talking about. After a very long time i have had quality discussion from individuals of both side of the borders. I am used to reading jingoistic remarks from Indian fanboys.
 
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I am very grateful for the very nice compliments paid by jinx1 and by notorious_eagle.

Regarding the hubris in the posts of my countrymen, I daresay there is some element of anxiety lest members from a rival country should pick on our self-admitted weakness and chafe us about it. That may prevent searching introspection that is needed.
 
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I believe you are very wrong Jinx1. When it comes to China and PLA, all who matter in the government are extra cautious and under confident of achieving anything - thus always check twice before.

The collective polity and to a rather smaller extent the military suffers from being overly and excruciatingly overcautious when it comes to military preparations against PLA.

What you say might be applicable to Pakistan, its quite the opposite in this scenario. Any achievement of China that has a military bearing on India - particularly logistics is analyzed in great detail and to death.
 
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What you say might be applicable to Pakistan, its quite the opposite in this scenario. Any achievement of China that has a military bearing on India - particularly logistics is analyzed in great detail and to death.
Not necessarily true - For example, can you list the Chinese regiments and their Senior Colonels opposite the Indian side?
 
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Joe,
Sorry, I can only reply when I have over 1000 posts. It'll take a lifetime for me to reach that stage. :)

Unless you can PM an email contact.
 
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I believe you are very wrong Jinx1. When it comes to China and PLA, all who matter in the government are extra cautious and under confident of achieving anything - thus always check twice before.

The collective polity and to a rather smaller extent the military suffers from being overly and excruciatingly overcautious when it comes to military preparations against PLA.

What you say might be applicable to Pakistan, its quite the opposite in this scenario. Any achievement of China that has a military bearing on India - particularly logistics is analyzed in great detail and to death.

I sincerely hope you are right.

Not necessarily true - For example, can you list the Chinese regiments and their Senior Colonels opposite the Indian side?

These are not widely known. Even the orbat of 1962 is not very well known, leading to accounts of human wave assaults.
 
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