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Indian research scholar at Oxford: Pakistan Army not involved in Bangladesh

Yaar Peshwa Bhai,

Choro yaar. Kiyon kuraidtay ho Zakhmon kho (why to open old wounds)..

You think we get any pleasure to see or hear any harm done to anyone in the then E. Pakistan? do you?

There are some numbers. The most authentic official source from Pakistan is Hamooder Rehman report.

check that out if you can find it.

Thank you

Didnt mean to take any potshots...

I just wanted to know the level of discrepancy in the numbers between the official vs. "popular" belief of the events...

The point is, at the end of the day.... Bengalis got what they wanted, Pakistan has apologized while hopefully learning from their mistake, India achieved its objective of minimizing its threat from 2 sides...pretty much settles the issue.

Essentially, unless Pakistan is absolutely denying that any excesses happened, we (Indians) have no business settling others scores, especially the Bengalis...If the Bengalis still harbor ill will, they should use whatever leverage they have to get Pakistan to punish/provide reperations....

But lets not be surprised...No civil war has ever been without some bloodshed..so this shouldnt come as a shock to anyone...
 
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Didnt mean to take any potshots...

I just wanted to know the level of discrepancy in the numbers between the official vs. "popular" belief of the events...

The point is, at the end of the day.... Bengalis got what they wanted, Pakistan has apologized while hopefully learning from their mistake, India achieved its objective of minimizing its threat from 2 sides...pretty much settles the issue.

Essentially, unless Pakistan is absolutely denying that any excesses happened, we (Indians) have no business settling others scores, especially the Bengalis...If the Bengalis still harbor ill will, they should use whatever leverage they have to get Pakistan to punish/provide reperations....

But lets not be surprised...No civil war has ever been without some bloodshed..so this shouldnt come as a shock to anyone...

fair argument.

I wish every Indian learns from your humility and humanity.

I do find offensive to count dead people, and raped women as if they were bags of corn.

Pakistanis (majority of them) have made peace long time ago. We regretted back then and do the same even now. you think it is fun to go through a trauma of being invaded by your arch enemy and seeing your country split.

Do you?

Unfortunately the cheapness and pettiness comes from some of the the Indian and Mujibites posters. They apparently take great pleasure (read mental masturbation) by repeating and inflating the rape numbers and death number over and over again.


peace to you.
 
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According to pakistan's official stance, "only" 26,000 civilians were murdered.

26000 is a big number.. officially 25000 people died in bosnian genocide. (3 year conflict)
Of course bosnians muslims will disagree and will point to mass graves to show many more died.

The world has failed bengalis, too bad they are not europeans nor the perpetrators.
 
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fair argument.

I do find offensive to count dead people, and raped women as if they were bags of corn.

Its strange to see people take pleasure at others misery simply to spite an adversary or throw it in their face....a purely PDF phenomenon and I agree very disrespectful to the dead....

Pakistanis (majority of them) have made peace long time ago. We regretted back then and do the same even now. you think it is fun to go through a trauma of being invaded by your arch enemy and seeing your country split.

Do you?

See here is my problem with what I see on this forum....
This topic was brought about by an Indian to embarass Pakistanis on a military defeat...shameful and regretful since we should be concerned over the atrocities and injustice associated with this incidence instead of gloating...But thats not the case...so Indians have no moral high ground when commenting...

However, the Pakistanis are no better either...to many here, the only embarassment is to be defeated at the hands of India...NOT the shame associated with killing innocent people...

We are nothing more than pigs slinging mud at each other while enjoying how much the other gets dirty...

Unfortunately the cheapness and pettiness comes from some of the the Indian and Mujibites posters. They apparently take great pleasure (read mental masturbation) by repeating and inflating the rape numbers and death number over and over again.

Sorry to say but this isnt just about Indians or Mujibites....Pakistanis are equally bad if not on this topic, then about Kashmir, Anti-Sikh riots etc...so this "mental masterbation" as you put it is not an exclusive phenomenon...
Indians are equally petty as Pakistanis to return the favor of Kashmir etc by bringing this up....

Frankly I dont believe in beating a dead horse...especially when '71 has a topic has been discussed to death...

Move the **** on and just dont repeat it....but thats too much to expect it seems.
 
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Its strange to see people take pleasure at others misery simply to spite an adversary or throw it in their face....a purely PDF phenomenon and I agree very disrespectful to the dead....
......

Amen brother. May peace be upon you.







.....so Indians have no moral high ground when commenting...
....

Fully agreed.


I.....
However, the Pakistanis are no better either...to many here, the only embarassment is to be defeated at the hands of India...NOT the shame associated with killing innocent people........


Absolutely.


please keep up your struggle for THIS enlightenment among your fellow Indian posters.

And

You know I already have started this.


It is a tough job but somebody has to do it.


peace
 
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26000 is a big number.. officially 25000 people died in bosnian genocide. (3 year conflict).

One death is too many. I hope you are not having mental orgasms repeating the number. I just hope.




...

The world has failed bengalis, too bad they are not europeans nor the perpetrators.


Let's not make grandiose statements like "World has failed doooh daaaah deeeeh".


Bengalis were failed by following three and ONLY these three (let's not drag the whole fing world in it when they had no say nor role in this horrible horrible tragedy:


1. Pakistanis:


We should have sensed it in 1960s and figured out some kind of mutually agreed peace formula.
Something in between a federation where E.Pakistan will have lot more say on their affairs.

or

solution adopted by Czechs and Slovaks.



2. Indians:

Why the f destroy your neighbor when you are fing 10 times bigger with an ancient history and civilization.

Why?

Why do stuff that a pathetic African tribal warlord would do to his neighbor.


3. Bengalis:

Last but not least. Bengalis must take some responsibility. For pursuing anarchy in the name of democracy, and killing my fellow Beharis and putting them in concentration camps where many dwell today.




This is just a high level view. Where books can be written.

However I wanted to make sure, you my dear poster, do not f@rt as a nobel laureate which you are not.


Thank you.
 
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Its strange to see people take pleasure at others misery simply to spite an adversary or throw it in their face....a purely PDF phenomenon and I agree very disrespectful to the dead....



See here is my problem with what I see on this forum....
This topic was brought about by an Indian to embarass Pakistanis on a military defeat...shameful and regretful since we should be concerned over the atrocities and injustice associated with this incidence instead of gloating...But thats not the case...so Indians have no moral high ground when commenting...

However, the Pakistanis are no better either...to many here, the only embarassment is to be defeated at the hands of India...NOT the shame associated with killing innocent people...

We are nothing more than pigs slinging mud at each other while enjoying how much the other gets dirty...



Sorry to say but this isnt just about Indians or Mujibites....Pakistanis are equally bad if not on this topic, then about Kashmir, Anti-Sikh riots etc...so this "mental masterbation" as you put it is not an exclusive phenomenon...
Indians are equally petty as Pakistanis to return the favor of Kashmir etc by bringing this up....

Frankly I dont believe in beating a dead horse...especially when '71 has a topic has been discussed to death...

Move the **** on and just dont repeat it....but thats too much to expect it seems.

the bold bit is wrong, the topic was brought by a norweigian(?) to deny genocide has happened by nitpicking the number. If 25k bosnian death is genocide why not bengali?

And people here denying that it happened, even going on to blame it on Indian forces.(the actual act of rape and murders).

This is not about 71 war.
 
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One death is too many. I hope you are not having mental orgasms repeating the number. I just hope.







Let's not make grandiose statements like "World has failed doooh daaaah deeeeh".


Bengalis were failed by following three and ONLY these three (let's not drag the whole fing world in it when they had no say nor role in this horrible horrible tragedy:


1. Pakistanis:


We should have sensed it in 1960s and figured out some kind of mutually agreed peace formula.
Something in between a federation where E.Pakistan will have lot more say on their affairs.

or

solution adopted by Czechs and Slovaks.



2. Indians:

Why the f destroy your neighbor when you are fing 10 times bigger with an ancient history and civilization.

Why?

Why do stuff that a pathetic African tribal warlord would do to his neighbor.


3. Bengalis:

Last but not least. Bengalis must take some responsibility. For pursuing anarchy in the name of democracy, and killing my fellow Beharis and putting them in concentration camps where many dwell today.




This is just a high level view. Where books can be written.

However I wanted to make sure, you my dear poster, do not f@rt as a nobel laureate which you are not.


Thank you.
sorry, I tend not to rejoice at death and destruction of others. Tell me if you ever had such orgasm when you hear genocide.
When I said world, that includes India, obviously.

You are also not some historian, the level of personal abuse in your post makes me feel you are an illeterate.
In most of the posts on this thread, you are shown your level by other members.
Still you shamelessly keep ranting.
I dont get it how you are jr TT, and razpak is not. :cheers:
 
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If 25k bosnian death is genocide why not bengali?

And people here denying that it happened, even going on to blame it on Indian forces.(the actual act of rape and murders).
r.

26K Bengalis did die from a period of March 29 1971 through December 16 of 1971. As per Pakistani government's Hamoodur Rehman commission. That's what should matter to you and not some Tom, Krishna, or Akram on PDF.

If someone is denying it, well you could always question their mental health.

Bottom line: you gotta calm down a bit, instead of the usual $hit shoveling Pak-ind style. OK.


As far the killing, if you want to hammer home the term "genocide", you gotta learn about the history beyond a 4th grade sarkari school book in India. or something more than usual Amma Abba discussion in front of a cheap talk show being run by the likes of Zaid Hameed.

In the then E. Pakistan, a lot of people died. But many of them in the hands of Indian insurgents (Manekshaw accepted it), Mukti Bahini, local militias and off course Pak army. Majority of them died in the India camps.


Thus the reasons so many bengalis died, that more than one player was involved in Killing inside E. Pakistan.

India must take the responsibility for the deaths of 1000s of bengalis in the 3 camps where inadequate living conditions were deliberately created by the Indian baboos.

If a Kashmir runs from India and settles in Pakistani area, then dies within few months. That death cannot be counted as Indian army physically murdering him.



Hope you understand that deaths occurring in Indian area are Indian responsibility and the ones occurring in E. Pakistan were Pakistani responsibility.


You f@rt about genocide against Bengalis. If W. Pakistanis were so committed to genocide, why did they not kill 100s of 1000s of bengalis who were in W. Pakistan at that time.

Why?

Anyone who wanted to stay in Pakistan stayed, and the ones who wanted to go to BDesh were sent over to BDesh.




In short you are talking about stuff that you have no idea. And your motivation is to simply shovel $hit on Pakistan in the name of pseudo love for Bengalis.



Please avoid this stinky business if you can (unless it is your family obligation).

Thank you.



p.s. Here are the definitions of genocide, Rebellion, and insurgency for those who are interested.



Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."


Rebellion, uprising, or insurrection is a refusal of obedience or order.[1] It may, therefore, be seen as encompassing a range of behaviors aimed at destroying or taking over the position of an established authority such as a government, governor, president, political leader, or person in charge



An insurgency is an armed rebellion against a constituted authority (for example, an authority recognized as such by the United Nations) when those taking part in the rebellion are not recognized as belligerents.
 
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the bold bit is wrong, the topic was brought by a norweigian(?) to deny genocide has happened by nitpicking the number. If 25k bosnian death is genocide why not bengali?

And people here denying that it happened, even going on to blame it on Indian forces.(the actual act of rape and murders).

This is not about 71 war.

I suppose I meant to say that the topic of 71 and Bengali genocide has been used in the past as a means to smear Pakistanis....ur right that this instance wasn't so....

Nevertheless I do sense the hypocrisy in many Pakistanis when they level the same exaggeration in our situation as an indisputable occourance...it just gets monotonous either way...

Note: on the topic of these crimes like rape being prevalent in the Indian camps is news to me....so far I haven't read much that suggests that such happened or was perpetrated by Indian forces....the Bengalis would have demonized us quadruple if this was true...tho I would like to read up on where people have gotten this information from
 
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In the then E. Pakistan, a lot of people died. But many of them in the hands of Indian insurgents (Manekshaw accepted it), Mukti Bahini, local militias and off course Pak army. Majority of them died in the India camps.

Id like some clarity on a few of the mentioned comments here...
1. What is an "Indian insurgent" vs. a Mukti bahini? how did we come to this new term? What Maneckshaw has accepted is pushing a few thousand E.Pakistanis (displaced Bengalis) that were trained in India into BD...who were the core of the mukti bahini.
What you're implying is that those part of the "Indian insurgent" category were indians pretending to be Bengali pushed into E.Pak? (Read similar to a Pakistani Pakhtoon fighting in the soviet-afghan war)...I have not come accross any such report that indicates that..
Could you please expand on this?

2.Majority of them died in india?? Please provide your source for this as i am very curious...

Thanks in advance..


Thus the reasons so many bengalis died, that more than one player was involved in Killing inside E. Pakistan.

India must take the responsibility for the deaths of 1000s of bengalis in the 3 camps where inadequate living conditions were deliberately created by the Indian baboos.

This statement is very perplexing...
Mainly because it seems that you're comparing deaths at a refugee camps due to say disease, heat, maybe even lack of food to systematic political targeting and elimination.. a condition brought upon by Pakistan NOT India due to the political/civil warlike situation

So I fail to see how India was responsible for anything but taking in political refugees that were forced upon us and sheltering them with whatever little we had....We were spending on these people from our pocket, at the cost of our poor...
And not to forget that this shelter saved the lives of millions of Bengalis who without it would have been nothing more than target turkeys....

But Im sure you have your reasons, so I look forward to your reply...
 
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I suppose I meant to say that the topic of 71 and Bengali genocide has been used in the past as a means to smear Pakistanis....ur right that this instance wasn't so....

Nevertheless I do sense the hypocrisy in many Pakistanis when they level the same exaggeration in our situation as an indisputable occourance...it just gets monotonous either way...

Note: on the topic of these crimes like rape being prevalent in the Indian camps is news to me....so far I haven't read much that suggests that such happened or was perpetrated by Indian forces....the Bengalis would have demonized us quadruple if this was true...tho I would like to read up on where people have gotten this information from


Well said.


1971 E. Bengal insurgency and rebellion and war of liberation etc. should be studied.

But we should also do some sort of controlled study.

some thing like "What would Jesus do" :lol:

That is. Given the same or similar circumstances, what would another country in the world would do.




Since many Indians are sensitive (and perhaps hypocritical in some cases) so I won't ask you guys to discuss Punjab insurgency/uprising, or Kashmir insurgency/uprising.


But how about BDeshis themselves.


Would they now take it lightly if there are bunch of Islamist "separatists" or "rebellion" or "Jih@di" want to take over the government, or separate a piece of BDesh.


Would BDeshis say, "Yeap, you have all the right to go your own way". Here is the deed to your land.

Would BDeshis happily give up some land where Chakma tribes live?


Would they?


If you don't like this controlled study, pick your favorite.


Here are some others.

Would Americans had let the Southern States go? (for a moment not including Slavery in the debate and keeping it purely as the struggle for the rights of Southern states).


Would they.



Should China let the Xinjiang province go (for a moment not view it as Muslim problem and just state's rights), because people there are not happy with the Beijing government?



Please enlighten me.


As I am sick and tired of looking at the same issue from the same angle over and over and over again.


you all have made up your mind.


hence the need of new comparative studies.


Thank you.
 
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Many Researcher, Archive, News Channels, Doctors, Historian, victims, eyewitness said "Pakistan did crime of Century in BD" no one bother...

One Sharmila bose Wrote pro Pakistan report, she became prophet, Her words became word of God.. :P


Publicity:
a) I kill many I am undetected, I kill PM of any country I become famous.
b) I talk about Human right of Security personal , I am undetected, I raise Human right of OBL, I am famous..
 
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Since many Indians are sensitive (and perhaps hypocritical in some cases) so I won't ask you guys to discuss Punjab insurgency/uprising, or Kashmir insurgency/uprising.



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Please coin the hypothetical scenario and i would be more than happy to provide my views...
 
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According to pakistan's official stance, "only" 26,000 civilians were murdered.
Absolute nonsense. Utter lies. Disgusting propaganda.

Sarmila Bose, after painstakingly meticulous research, has proven that a total of 26 civilians were murdered and 2 women were raped. When she was unjustly criticized, she did some more meticulous research and rectified her mistake.

Those 26 civilians actually committed suicide and those 2 women actually had consensual sex.
 
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