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Indian research scholar at Oxford: Pakistan Army not involved in Bangladesh

Let's bust some Indian ignorant claims, Mr Ayyer already claimed Indians are ignorant and your Judge claimed 90 percent indians are stupid, they were both right actuall


The very same judge also claimed that Pakistan is a filled state, so stop quoting the stupid guy, it makes you look more foolish.

On topic- A war is going to have casualties and this one is almost 50 years old, it would be great if the BD's could forget, forgive and move on and it would be a great gesture if the leadership of Pakistan could ask for an apology. Both have nothing to loose.
 
26K Bengalis did die from a period of March 29 1971 through December 16 of 1971. As per Pakistani government's Hamoodur Rehman commission. That's what should matter to you and not some Tom, Krishna, or Akram on PDF.

If someone is denying it, well you could always question their mental health.

Bottom line: you gotta calm down a bit, instead of the usual $hit shoveling Pak-ind style. OK.


As far the killing, if you want to hammer home the term "genocide", you gotta learn about the history beyond a 4th grade sarkari school book in India. or something more than usual Amma Abba discussion in front of a cheap talk show being run by the likes of Zaid Hameed.

In the then E. Pakistan, a lot of people died. But many of them in the hands of Indian insurgents (Manekshaw accepted it), Mukti Bahini, local militias and off course Pak army. Majority of them died in the India camps.


Thus the reasons so many bengalis died, that more than one player was involved in Killing inside E. Pakistan.

India must take the responsibility for the deaths of 1000s of bengalis in the 3 camps where inadequate living conditions were deliberately created by the Indian baboos.

If a Kashmir runs from India and settles in Pakistani area, then dies within few months. That death cannot be counted as Indian army physically murdering him.



Hope you understand that deaths occurring in Indian area are Indian responsibility and the ones occurring in E. Pakistan were Pakistani responsibility.


You f@rt about genocide against Bengalis. If W. Pakistanis were so committed to genocide, why did they not kill 100s of 1000s of bengalis who were in W. Pakistan at that time.

Why?

Anyone who wanted to stay in Pakistan stayed, and the ones who wanted to go to BDesh were sent over to BDesh.




In short you are talking about stuff that you have no idea. And your motivation is to simply shovel $hit on Pakistan in the name of pseudo love for Bengalis.



Please avoid this stinky business if you can (unless it is your family obligation).

Thank you.



p.s. Here are the definitions of genocide, Rebellion, and insurgency for those who are interested.



Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."


Rebellion, uprising, or insurrection is a refusal of obedience or order.[1] It may, therefore, be seen as encompassing a range of behaviors aimed at destroying or taking over the position of an established authority such as a government, governor, president, political leader, or person in charge



An insurgency is an armed rebellion against a constituted authority (for example, an authority recognized as such by the United Nations) when those taking part in the rebellion are not recognized as belligerents.
sorry, no time for your post, not worth reading because frankly I dont expect any post with any knowledge from you, keep writing sh*t and peace (p i s s?) in every post, and I wonder what your profession is. :chilli:

change your id to fakehistorian, suits you better.
 
3. Bengalis:

Last but not least. Bengalis must take some responsibility. For pursuing anarchy in the name of democracy, and killing my fellow Beharis and putting them in concentration camps where many dwell today.
Yes. Absolutely. Agree '400%'.

A rape victim must take 'some' responsibility for rape. Particularly if the victim has grievously injured the rapist in the name of self-defense.

Peace.
 
Sarmila Bose not again.
Folks here are busy giving PA a clean chit when the American themselves contemplating on the role played by Nixon, Kissinger in Bangladesh genocide. And finding these duo were equally responsible for in human slaughter of Hindus and Muslim intellectuals in Bangladesh war.

The Blood Telegram: Nixon, Kissinger, and a Forgotten Genocide
Gary J. Bass (Author)

Book Description
Release date: September 24, 2013
A riveting history--the first full account--of the involvement of Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger in the 1971 atrocities in Bangladesh that led to war between India and Pakistan, shaped the fate of Asia, and left in its wake a host of major strategic consequences for the world today.

Drawing on recently declassified documents, unheard White House tapes, and investigative reporting, Gary Bass gives us an unprecedented chronicle of a crucial but little-known chapter of the Cold War. He shows how Nixon and Kissinger supported Pakistan's military dictatorship as it brutally quashed the results of a historic free election. The Pakistani army launched a crackdown on what was then East Pakistan (today an independent Bangladesh), killing hundreds of thousands of people, and sending ten million refugees fleeing into India--one of the worst humanitarian crises of the twentieth century. It soon sparked a major war. But Nixon and Kissinger remained untroubled by Pakistan's massacres, secretly encouraged China to mass troops on the Indian border, and illegally supplied weapons to the Pakistani military--an unknown scandal that presages Watergate. And Bass makes clear how the United States's embrace of the military dictatorship in Islamabad would affect geopolitics for decades. A revelatory, compulsively readable work of essential recent history.
 
Yes. Absolutely. Agree '400%'.

A rape victim must take 'some' responsibility for rape. Particularly if the victim has grievously injured the rapist in the name of self-defense.

Peace.


You my dear are surely in possession of mental faculties as grand as a pigeon.

How on earth one could ever present Mukti Bahini, Shah beg Bahini, and deserters from EPR as "rape victims". Those were all 99% guys.


And if even a single Bengali woman was raped, why you all are having mental orgasm now.

Don't you even know that

You all Indians keep on bringing accusations, that should be directed to Indira administration.


If she had any iota of proof of rapes by Pak army or Pak officials, she should have hanged them in the middle of Dhaka.

Why? We do not want to see any Pak army jawan and officer committing such horrible crime.

And if Indira had any proof, and she could not prosecute because she just wanted to have sex with Pak army generals.

then at least the great grand kids of hers should have descency to hand that proof to us.

Where is your moral outrage.

Perhaps you are missing it.

And just using rape accusations to help yourself perform some handjob on your frustrated self.



She had our POWs from General to Sipahi all of them who were in E. Pakistan in December 1971.


But she had no proof.


Neither do you.


And yet, like typical Pak-Ind $hit shovelers, you have made it a family business to keep spreading accusations on a group of people who had no fing control whatsoever.


For crying out loud, most of us were not even born in 1971, let alone making decisions that are still burning the @rse holes of so many Indians.


Pathetic.

Just pathetic
 
Instead of lapping some gora $hit, bring on the reports of Indian investigators.

And ask yourself,

Why the heck they didn't prosecute Pak generals (in Indian jails) for the crimes you accuse them for?


But you can't.

40+ years have gone by, and you still are forced to copy paste Rummel.

Even when Rummel himself says, he takes the low number and high number and averages it out. That's his forumla.

What is yours?


May be your "formula" is to shovel $hit on Pakistanis and on daily basis. As if it was your Khandani paisha to shovel $hit.


Sorry to say

I don't know what points you make in long comments. Here is the proof of type of brainwashing Pakistani kids receive in school about Bangladesh war.

BBC News - Scars of Bangladesh independence war 40 years on

I was born in the middle of a cold winter night in December 1971 in Sindh, Pakistan. There was a blackout and bombs were falling.

Pakistan was losing a war and it was also losing its eastern half, separated from the rest of the country by more than 1,600km (990 miles) of India.

After nine months of internal strife and a military crackdown against Bangladeshi separatists, the full-scale war with India was swift and decisive. It lasted just 13 days.

The defeat of the Pakistani army on 16 December 1971 was a triumph for India and the Bengali insurgents it had assisted.

For Pakistan, it was perhaps the darkest moment in its history and the ultimate humiliation. The army stood accused of mass murder, torture and rape. Tens of thousands of Pakistani soldiers were taken prisoners of war.

Forty years on, I decided to examine the legacy of this brief but bitter war.

Growing up in Pakistan, we did not talk much about the war at home. In school, we seemed to rush through that period of our history.

On a recent visit to my old school in Karachi, I picked up an officially approved history book.

The book recognises that East Pakistanis felt culturally subjugated and economically exploited by their dominant Western half.

But it suggests the causes for separation include India, Hindu propaganda and international conspiracies
.

At my old school I asked a group of teenage students if they had heard of the Bangladeshi accusations of genocide or widespread rape by the Pakistani army.

"That's wrong, that's propaganda!" several said.

"The Pakistani army is a professional army. They are Muslims. They couldn't have done that to their brothers and sisters over there."


'Foolish operation'

But if Pakistan has tried to treat the events of 1971 as a closed chapter, in Bangladesh, the wounds of the war are very fresh.

Professor Serajul Islam Choudhury remembers colleagues at the Dhaka University memorial

On my first ever visit to Dhaka, it was immediately clear that the Bangladeshi narrative of 1971 remains firmly focused on the violence unleashed by the Pakistani army.

Many Bangladeshis still feel very bitter about their treatment by West Pakistan, with discriminatory policies over economics and language.

In 1971, the West Pakistan leadership appeared to have made up its mind to answer this resentment with military force.

"It makes me think how foolish the entire operation was, how mad it was and how tragic it was," said Serajul Islam Choudhury, a professor at Dhaka University.

"There's no possibility of bringing down an entire people by the military coming from abroad. The loss we suffered was enormous."

As he stared at the list of names on a memorial honouring the teachers, students and staff of Dhaka University who died in 1971, his emotion is palpable.

"To this day, I feel very sad thinking of my colleagues who were killed during the military operations."

The Bangladeshi government says that three million people were killed during the nine months of conflict. Some say that figure is too high and unverifiable.

And the mainstream Bangladeshi narrative is also accused of omitting alleged atrocities perpetrated by Bengali separatists against communities who were deemed loyal to Pakistan.

Entire villages are reported to have been attacked, homes burnt and families killed.

Aly Zaker was among thousands of Bengalis who took up arms to fight for independence.

"Our target was the Pakistan occupation force and their cohorts, who were created within the confines of Bangladesh with quislings," he says.

He believes that minorities only faced retribution after they had acted as proxies of the Pakistani army and killed Bengalis.

Existential fear

As I learned more about 1971, it seemed to me that many of the geopolitical patterns of Pakistan and the region were formed during that conflict.

Back then, the Pakistani army was accused of forming militia groups to do its bidding in East Pakistan. Since then, it has been seen to use similar tactics in Afghanistan and Kashmir.

Many warn that the dangerous nexus between the military and ****** militant groups is now threatening Pakistan from within.

Ikram Seghal, a defence analyst who lectures in Pakistani military colleges, believes the biggest internal challenge to Pakistan today is terrorism.

But like many in the military, he sees India as the principal external threat.

"If you look at the Indian armed forces deployment along the Pakistani border - their forward bases, their armoured divisions, their strike divisions - they can mobilise and go to war with us in 72 hours.

"While for us, short of a nuclear strike, we cannot hold them."

This existential fear of a bigger, hostile India is central to Pakistan's security paradigm. In 1971 this fear was reinforced by the crucial role India played in the break up of Pakistan.

For India, the situation became serious when nearly 10 million Bengali refugees crossed the border into its territory. There was a humanitarian crisis, but also an opportunity to cut Pakistan down to size.

Pakistan's army today

AK Khandker is a senior minister in the Bangladeshi government and served as a separatist commander in 1971.

He says India started providing weapons and training to the rebels in May of that year, and stepped up the programme after signing a pact with the Soviet Union in August.

According to Mr Khandker, the attacks by Indian-trained separatist fighters were so effective, that by November "the Pakistani army was physically and morally exhausted."

Today he says that without India, the independence of Bangladesh "would have been extremely, extremely difficult".

"The help that India gave to us, we are so grateful to them," he says.

One might expect that the Pakistani army's failure in 1971 would have diminished its power in the country. But in my lifetime, its influence in shaping and running the country has grown exponentially.

It seems the conclusion the Pakistani army drew from its defeat in 1971 was to grow stronger; to exercise more control over civilian affairs.

Many in Pakistan still regard the army as a saviour, the glue that holds the country together, saving it from corrupt politicians and enemies like India - and increasingly America.

But others feel it was the army's tight grip on power that contributed to the break up of Pakistan in the first place.

They believe that the military has stifled the country's democratic development, undermining its very fabric.

"I'm a soldier and proud of being a soldier. But all the ills of Pakistan are because of the armed forces intervention in the civilian affairs," says Lt Gen Abdul Qadir Baloch.

He retired from the army just a few years ago and is now a member of parliament.

"If the army had not imposed as many martial laws in this country - four so far - we would have had 15 to 20 elections by now and a much better lot of politicians than the sort of pygmies we have got today."

Boundaries of Blood will broadcast on BBC Radio 4 on Tuesday, 13 December at 20.00 GMT and on Your World on the BBC World Service.
 
How on earth one could ever present Mukti Bahini, Shah beg Bahini, and deserters from EPR as "rape victims". Those were all 99% guys.
All that you mentioned happened after the massacre of March 26. That marked the beginning of rape.

I am not aware of any 'Shah beg Bahini' though.

… she should have hanged them in the middle of Dhak.
That was not her job, neither was she in any way, by any international law entitled nor obligated to do that.

If only you were not that self-absorbed, you would have realised that the International Commission of Jurists (ICJ) did take it up on Bangladesh’s insistence. Guess which country refused to co-operate with ICJ?

Do you want me to post their report?

Rest of your post is just typical Pakistani flatulence.

Peace.
 
@Aeronaut This thread too, please close it.
 
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She has made tall claims without any proof, but by her own made conviction.:lol: Neither it will change the past or future, only thing it has changed is that Now we know there is an author of the name 'Sarmila Bose'.
 
There are apologists indeed.

1. Apologists for the "perceived" massacres in BD
2. Apologists for the "lies" of INdian media and Sh Mujeeb.


Take your pick. And it is obvious which side you are on.



Pakistani army made blunders in BD. Who can deny that.


The only issue at hand is to prosecute the "perpetrators".

Let's look at it.

so we are now in Jan 1972.

** 50,000 Pak army troops, 40,000 others from Pak are in Indian jails.
** Indira Gandhi is assembling a star team of lawyers and investigators to prosecute these SOBs whose crimes?

** They (Pakistanis) killed 3,000,000 Bengalis and raped 6,000,000 Bengali women.

Every Tom, Shunker, and Lallu knows about it.

Obviously it is an

** open and shut case.

** you got the perpetrators (those 90,000 Muslas from West)

** you got the 3 million killing and 6 million raping.

** you got the motive that Western Muslas wanted to teach a lesson to these hapless Bengalis.

** you got the star lawyers.


the only thing you need is a shred of evidence that proves the guilt of 90,000 Muslas.

the only little ittsy bittsy evidence is all you need.

And then 90% of these SOBs the generals the bureaucrats these damned Pakistanis will be hanging on the gallows.

So the star team of lawyers start compiling evidence upon evidence.

They do that for 12 damned months throughout 1972.


They look for evidence for 3,000,000 dead bodies in BD from Pak army ops starting in March 1971, ending in December 1971, period of 9 months.

They look for babies born to 6,000,000 million raped Bengali women tarting in March 1971, ending in December 1971, period of 9 months.

Woops.

they can't find even a 0.1% of these numbers in BD.

No Pakistani looking kids to raped Bengali women.
No mass graves dug up by Pakistani buldozers. No nothing.

so unless Pakistanis used some star war weapon that made 3,000,000 murdered Bengalis to instantly evaporate,

or Pakistanis were firing blanks and not a single baby was born to 6,000,000 raped women.



To make the matters worse, these INdian investigators found that most of the killings and raping of Bengalis took place in the camps inside India.


When Indira saw all that, she must have said. "Baap ray baap: (meaning nehru ray nehru),

I am in a deep $hit. I cannot prosecute even one general for the war crimes.

So she had to let them go.



and you guys want to talk about apologists?



p.s.
Sorry to be brutally honest. But we have to be. We are talking about million upon million killings and raping. This is no easy charge. So please don't be childish or queasy about question it.

Were you trying to tell a funny story?
Try reading Anthony Mascarenhas (of the BBC) account of those times. He was the first Western Journalist to expose the "killing games".
Of course after the event; the apologists have been making their periodical "stage appearances".
Is this time an exception?
 
Were you trying to tell a funny story?
Try reading Anthony Mascarenhas (of the BBC) account of those times. He was the first Western Journalist to expose the "killing games".
Of course after the event; the apologists have been making their periodical "stage appearances".
Is this time an exception?

BBC had one account.

However if you have BBC vs. Gen. Manekshaw.

Who carries more weight?


BBC or Gen. Manekshaw, BBC or Gen. Manekshaw, BBC or Gen. Manekshaw, BBC or Gen. Manekshaw.


Even the OP is much more scholarly than anything BBC ever put out.


Off course some here are so Gora slaves that they want to ignore their own Generals and their own scholars.

What a pity.



p.s. I presented several scenarios. You are latching on to just one. sadly.
 
The 40,000 had guns. The millions of Bangladeshis did not.
A few thousand Nazis at the death camps murdered millions upon millions of Jews, Poles, Russians.


Nonsense, if there was so much evidence, then how come india did not execute every 40,000 PA soldier for "war crimes"?????

The massacre started from late 1950s .. 20 years was a good time to get the million kills !
Your claim is illogical, not even Mujib made such a claim.

Now, one question to you and your fellow bharatis:

If there was evidence, mass graves, etc, then how come you indians did not execute 40,000 PA soldiers, generals, and officers for war crimes?
 
Unfortunately pakistan did not have nuclear weapons otherwise they have bomb bengali a$$ with nuke then we can reach millions of death .

And about rapes they got the allien technology of fcuking with eyes the technology was undevelopment thats why did not result in any prenancy but the side effect was they made the women very horny .
 
The verbally violent Bangladeshis are unusually and conspicuously silent on this thread.

Kya hua? This is about your people who were raped and murdered, not Indians or Pakistanis.
 
From the headline "Indian research scholar at Oxford" I was curious to know who the person was, but turned out it's the same old Sarmila Bose, I am disappointed. :angry:
 
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