Indian officers killed in Occupied Kashmir

[Keysersoze]

THREAD RE_OPENED

Any off topic or personal posts will be deleted......

 

[su-47]

By same formula when fighting against "rebels" as india called them one should ensure that civilians are not kidnapped, tortured, killed in fake encounters.

This is hyped up. some soldiers might violate the rules and shoot civilians, but that doesnt mean the army's mindset is to kill civillians. if it was, then IA would have conducted genocide like saddam did against the Kurds.

Oh you mean India only wants Resources of Kashmir and disowns the Kashmiris ?? Than stop bickering by saying Kashmiris are 'indian citizens' if you do not own them.

BTW india has no claim over Kashnir rather India is occupting Kashmir.

No. i didnt say that. I said that Kashmir belongs to India, but the people of Kashmir are not forced to saty in India, just like no Indian citizen is forced to stay in india. The Kashmiris, if they feel that India doesnt suit them, are free to go outside india.

 

[Flintlock]

Just a Quick question: What is the legality of Pakistan over NWFP and Balochistan?

 

[Spring Onion]

Just a Quick question: What is the legality of Pakistan over NWFP and Balochistan?

There are no UN resolutions on these Provinces unlike Indian Held Kashmir Kashmir

Nor there is any mass movement in these provinces for Freedom unlike Indian Held Kashmir.

Nor the Khans of Mirs of these Provinces sold these Provinces unilke Indian Held Kashmir which was sold by Mahraja against the wishes of Kashmiris .

 

[Flintlock]

There are no UN resolutions on these Provinces unlike Indian Held Kashmir Kashmir

Nor there is any mass movement in these provinces for Freedom unlike Indian Held Kashmir.

Nor the Khans of Mirs of these Provinces sold these Provinces unilke Indian Held Kashmir which was sold by Mahraja against the wishes of Kashmiris .

Ok let us just put the UN resolution aside for a moment.

How do we know if there is a mas movement? Has a poll been held in Balochistan to determine the same? I have heard that they have a separatist movement there as well.

By the way...wasn't Balochistan illegally occupied by the British, and hence became a Part of Pakistan? So why is Pakistan occupying it?

 

[Spring Onion]

Ok let us just put the UN resolution aside for a moment.?

Lolz why we should put UN resolution aside SA ?

How do we know if there is a mas movement? Has a poll been held in Balochistan to determine the same? I have heard that they have a separatist movement there as well.?

hahhahahhah SA you had excluded NWFP and only mentioning Balochistan beacuse there is Indian based terrorists are blowing gaslines

for determining mass movements we do not need to conduct poll my dear Stealth.
Does just a Poll was determinental that there is Freedom Movement in Indian Held Kashmir or is it thousands of Kashmiris who want Freedom.

We dont have 70,000 troops in Balochistan unlike Indian force in Held Kashmir.

By the way...wasn't Balochistan illegally occupied by the British, and hence became a Part of Pakistan? So why is Pakistan occupying it?

The entire Sub-continent was occupied by the Britishers illegaly so how is India occupying most of Indian states ? When there are people of different ethnecities

 

[Bull]

hahhahahhah SA you had excluded NWFP and only mentioning Balochistan beacuse there is Indian based terrorists are blowing gaslines

When bombblasts and mass rebellion happens in NWFP and Baluch its India and when the same happens in Kashmir its freedom fight.

We dont have 70,000 troops in Balochistan unlike Indian force in Held Kashmir.

Your inabilty to post enough troops in Baluch int India's mistake.

 

[Spring Onion]

When bombblasts and mass rebellion happens in NWFP and Baluch its India and when the same happens in Kashmir its freedom fight.

In NWFP bomb blasts are not due to any Freedom Movement nor by Freedom Fighters unlike Indian Held Kashmir where Kashmiris want freedom from India.

Your inabilty to post enough troops in Baluch int India's mistake.

hahhah its not inability.

we do not need to deploy 70,000 troops there as we are not faced with any Freedom movement there unlik Indian Held Kashmir.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Ok let us just put the UN resolution aside for a moment.

How do we know if there is a mas movement? Has a poll been held in Balochistan to determine the same? I have heard that they have a separatist movement there as well.

By the way...wasn't Balochistan illegally occupied by the British, and hence became a Part of Pakistan? So why is Pakistan occupying it?

Thats a ridiculous statement. How do we know that that there isn't a mass movement in Wisconsin to seperate from the U.S? I heard that they are sick and tired of not getting enough money for their cheese.

In fact, the question you posed is one that you should answer. How do we know? What similarity does the situation have to Kshmir? How about you first prove your hypothesis before trying to substantiate your argument with it.

Is there a "mass movement" in Baluchistan and FATA? If so, start a thread and prove it.

Bringing in tangential issues every time Kashmir comes up only indicates that there is a realization that there is a lack of moral justification for the Indian stance. The "best" justification for the Indian presence was given by Blitz, which was something to the effect of; "Might is right, India controls it, and ain't giving it back". Hardly a position that points to a "just, tolerant, and righteous India".

 

[Flintlock]

Lolz why we should put UN resolution aside SA ?

Just for the sake of discussion dear!!

hahhahahhah SA you had excluded NWFP and only mentioning Balochistan beacuse there is Indian based terrorists are blowing gaslines

for determining mass movements we do not need to conduct poll my dear Stealth.
Does just a Poll was determinental that there is Freedom Movement in Indian Held Kashmir or is it thousands of Kashmiris who want Freedom.

We dont have 70,000 troops in Balochistan unlike Indian force in Held Kashmir.

You do have plenty of troops there dear....if not as many as India!! Those 700,000 troops are also there to prevent any attempt from Pakistan to help them gain "freedom"
Not to mention the "freedom fighters" who all seem to be from Pakistan. Hmmm....I wonder why the Pakistanis are so much more enthusiastic about the freedom movements than the Kashmiris themselves!

The entire Sub-continent was occupied by the Britishers illegaly so how is India occupying most of Indian states ? When there are people of different ethnecities

Exactly!! We have finally come to the point:

India isn't occupying any state. Infact, all the different states simply joined to form India. India is in the states, and without the states there is no India!!

We are a nation of minorities!!

There is no "legality" involved in deciding the map of Pakistan!! Things just happened to be this way at independence!

The balochis are busy claiming that Pakistan is occupying their land!! Are they wrong??? No!!
They are fully entitled to ask for a separate homeland aren't they? By your reasoning, if the Balochis want to separate, they should be allowed to!! But will Pakistan let this happen? Of course not.

Guess what they are saying...that the ruler of Balochistan was forced to sign the instrument of accession by Jinnah!! Hmmm....now where have we heard that before??

If you want to see the Balochi point of view, just go to wikipedia dear!! It seems to be totally pro-free-balochistan!!


My point is , that with the advent of democracy, the idea of "freedom" movements has become redundant!! If the people are choosing their rulers, then they are free already!!

 

[Flintlock]

Thats a ridiculous statement. How do we know that that there isn't a mass movement in Wisconsin to seperate from the U.S? I heard that they are sick and tired of not getting enough money for their cheese.

Exactly!! There is no way to determine if there is a mass movement in kashmir either!!
If most of the extremists come from Pakistan, how can they be named freedom fighters??

In fact, the question you posed is one that you should answer. How do we know? What similarity does the situation have to Kshmir? How about you first prove your hypothesis before trying to substantiate your argument with it.

Ah....it is similar to kashmir because both states have Nationalists who claim that their territory has been illegally occupied!!
I just read up the Balochi freedom movements....it has a long history!! And several times the army was called in to keep the situation under control!! I read about the armed struggle of '71 as well!! Now what do you call that?

It was apparently brutally suppressed in teh 70s by Gen Zia!

Bringing in tangential issues every time Kashmir comes up only indicates that there is a realization that there is a lack of moral justification for the Indian stance. The "best" justification for the Indian presence was given by Blitz, which was something to the effect of; "Might is right, India controls it, and ain't giving it back". Hardly a position that points to a "just, tolerant, and righteous India".

AH....You still don't get it!! India is made up of many states and Kashmir is just a part of the union!!
Its not like USA is coming and occupying Timbuktu!!
Kashmir is just part of the union that was created at the time of independence!!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Exactly!! There is no way to determine if there is a mass movement in kashmir either!!
If most of the extremists come from Pakistan, how can they be named freedom fighters??

At least now you are back to the subject instead of dragging in irrelevant issues.

Here is one recent "independent" poll, conducted by an Indian organization that shows 87% of the people of Kashmir desire independence. There is also the CIA study conducted in 1967(?) that was released recently that presented the same picture, i.e the desire of the majority of Kashmiris to gain independence.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/6852-60-years-87-kashmiris-want-independence.html

Ah....it is similar to kashmir because both states have Nationalists who claim that their territory has been illegally occupied!!
I just read up the Balochi freedom movements....it has a long history!! And several times the army was called in to keep the situation under control!! I read about the armed struggle of '71 as well!! Now what do you call that?

It was apparently brutally suppressed in teh 70s by Gen Zia!

I need to point out one major difference to throw your analogy out the window. Here are two

1. Kashmir is territory contested by Two nations, Baluchistan and FATA are not
2. Kashmir has UN resolutions applying to it that substantiate the "disputed" status and recognize the right of the Kashmiri people to decide their destiny - Baluchistan and FATA do not (could it be because a large majority of the residents of those areas do not desire independence from Pakistan?)

And once again - You need to substantiate your allegation of "freedom movements" in FATA and Baluchistan, in another thread please, before using them to substantiate your argument here.

AH....You still don't get it!! India is made up of many states and Kashmir is just a part of the union!!
Its not like USA is coming and occupying Timbuktu!!
Kashmir is just part of the union that was created at the time of independence!!

Whats to get here? Kashmir cannot be part of the Indian Union until it is recognized by the UN and/or Pakistan as such. Next thing you know, you'll be occupying some part of Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh and be using the same argument- that does not make it true - wishful thinking is more like it.

Kashmir will be part of the Indian union when the LOC is an international border.

 

[Bull]

In NWFP bomb blasts are not due to any Freedom Movement nor by Freedom Fighters unlike Indian Held Kashmir where Kashmiris want freedom from India..

Well i have answered this before.
Bomb blasts in pakistan is bcoz of consipracy and everwhere else its bcoz of oppression whether it be Chechnya, London, Iraq, Afghanistan and Kashmir.

Who is fighting PA? RAW/ CIA/Mossad? And you mean PA is surrendering to them? You mean Ghazi showed his dissidence againt PA's NWFP operations on India's order?

hahhah its not inability.we do not need to deploy 70,000 troops there as we are not faced with any Freedom movement there unlik Indian Held Kashmir.

Well yes and all those gun ships, fighter jets and artillery are there for exhibition.

 

[Spring Onion]

.
Bomb blasts in pakistan is bcoz of consipracy

Beacuse of our fight against the Terrorism for making the world a safe place to live.

and everwhere else its bcoz of oppression whether it be Chechnya, London, Iraq, Afghanistan and Kashmir.

1. The blasts in Chechnya, London had never been supported by any one us
Nor we had ever termed these as justified.

2. Iraq and Afghanistan case is totally different there common people the nationals of these countries want the outsiders out of their country.

3. Now Finally please have some sharam Bull Kashmir is totaly different case and the entire world knows it.
It is shamful if someone combine the Kashmir issue with those of London or Chechnya.

I wonder you did not mentioned Palestine.
BTW what you say about Palestine

Who is fighting PA? RAW/ CIA/Mossad? And you mean PA is surrendering to them? You mean Ghazi showed his dissidence againt PA's NWFP operations on India's order?

Combination of all these pluse the Al-Qaeda scum.
ahhh that Ghazi did not showed his own dissidence rather the poor soul was forced by the militants and he payed for his relations whith Abdullah Mehsud who is dacning on tune of anti-Pakistan elements.

Well yes and all those gun ships, fighter jets and artillery are there for exhibition.

Bull in major cities we have units of aviation having gunships, fighter jets and artillery depending upon the location and strategic importance of the area.

 

[Flintlock]

At least now you are back to the subject instead of dragging in irrelevant issues.

Analogies are never irrelevant Agnostic Muslim!!

Here is one recent "independent" poll, conducted by an Indian organization that shows 87% of the people of Kashmir desire independence. There is also the CIA study conducted in 1967(?) that was released recently that presented the same picture, i.e the desire of the majority of Kashmiris to gain independence.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/6852-60-years-87-kashmiris-want-independence.html

Yes I saw that poll too!!
Here is my opinion: The poll just took the opinion of a few hundred people at max, and that too in the middle of muslim dominated Srinagar.
Now here is what I feel: The reporter obviously went around asking if the people want "azadi". Obviously the people are disgruntled with the present state of affairs, so they simply replied "yes, why not??" .

Azadi is a really evocative word isn't it?? You ask anyone if they want "azadi", they will surely agree if they are fed up with the current state of affairs!!

I need to point out one major difference to throw your analogy out the window. Here are two

1. Kashmir is territory contested by Two nations, Baluchistan and FATA are not
2. Kashmir has UN resolutions applying to it that substantiate the "disputed" status and recognize the right of the Kashmiri people to decide their destiny.

Firstly, Pakistan never took the Balochistan issue to the UN. If they had, surely the UN would have delivered the same verdict!!
They never had to, because as you say, the territory is not disputed by 2 established states.

However, there was a powerful uprising which was brutally suppressed!! Do I really need to start a new thread to prove this?? isn't it all in the history books?
Well if the need be....and if I am jobless enough....I'll try to get some info on the web and put it up.

Whats to get here? Kashmir cannot be part of the Indian Union until it is recognized by the UN and/or Pakistan as such. Next thing you know, you'll be occupying some part of Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh and be using the same argument- that does not make it a true, wishful thinking is more like it. Kashmir will be part of the Indian union when the LOC is an international border.

No we won't!! The Indian union only comprises the territories in the present day India. Nothing more.
It is not wishful thinking my friend....Kashmir already is part of the Indian Union!!