Indian Navy still have eyes on F-35

[Echo_419]

Thank you for correcting my little mistake.


Make that 10. I doubt PA's budget is going to increase for newer gadgets for at least another 10 years, unless it's urgently needed.

What i am saying is that since PA is engaged in a war on the NW front most of the budget will go towards PA & Counter Insurgency Equipment

 

[kaykay]

indian navy should be joking

F-35 is a mere joke

pierre sprey , the designer of F-16 and A-10 explains why :

if i was indian , i would wait for the naval version of PAK-FA . cause that plane is simply awesome


u dont say ?

 

[That Guy]

What i am saying is that since PA is engaged in a war on the NW front most of the budget will go towards PA & Counter Insurgency Equipment

I know, I just added to it.

 

[danger007]

I know, I just added to it.

you want to say FC-1 and JF 17 are different. ???? T 50 is proto PAK FA and FGFA single seat and dual seat variants ... We were involved in this project both economically and technically ... Both India and Russia need to agree to export any of these... I hope you read my post .. If India is threat to EU, US will not sell F -35. .. many of these EU countries intended to buy F -35. . why would EU sell equipment that can counter their own jet...

 

[sancho]

we cannot compromise on the engine front the engine must be 100% Indian,since it is the most crucial part of a plane,if it cannot e developed by JVs we should try to do it on our own.Take it up as a national project

That's the same mistake we did with LCA and Kaveri, thinking it needs to be 100% Indian and kept „hoping“ on it, but the engine, the radar and so many other things are only subsystems! The only thing that matters is, that the fighter is designed and developed by us, according to the requirements of the forces and suitable to our needs in geographical or climate related sense.
Nobody cares if the Gripen uses an US engine, nobody cares if J10, 11 and 17 uses Russian engines, nobody cares if the Korean T50 uses a US engine, Israeli radar and so on..., all that matters is, that we get the fighter project done!
We will need a lot of work to get Kaveri to a level to power the Migs, if we can improve it to power AMCA is a long shot and needs to be seen. That's why even recent DRDO officials seems to seperate the AMCA project from Kaveri (but it's DRDO, lets see when they will come up with the next dream) and basically confirm foreign engines for AMCA.

But the Super Hornet is not a fighter that has the same growth potential as the F-35 nor is is a next generation platform

The F35 is a stealth fighter but that's it, while Rafale offers far more NG capabilities. So NG is not limited by the airframe shaping and the Silent Hornet without the need of external fuel tanks, with internal weapon carriage and upgraded avionics will have several NG features too, that's why it would be the best compromise for us. The best NG fighter remains the FGFA, which is not "only" a stealth fighter, but a true NG fighter.

If larger aircrafts can be launched by catapult why not fighters ??

It's not about the size, but if the aircraft is designed to be used with catapults or not. The Mig 29K or Pak Fa are not, if the Russians develop EMALS, they will develop new AEW aircrafts for the use on them too and most likely suitable UCAVs.

 

[Echo_419]

That's the same mistake we did with LCA and Kaveri, thinking it needs to be 100% Indian and kept „hoping“ on it, but the engine, the radar and so many other things are only subsystems! The only thing that matters is, that the fighter is designed and developed by us, according to the requirements of the forces and suitable to our needs in geographical or climate related sense.
Nobody cares if the Gripen uses an US engine, nobody cares if J10, 11 and 17 uses Russian engines, nobody cares if the Korean T50 uses a US engine, Israeli radar and so on..., all that matters is, that we get the fighter project done!
We will need a lot of work to get Kaveri to a level to power the Migs, if we can improve it to power AMCA is a long shot and needs to be seen. That's why even recent DRDO officials seems to seperate the AMCA project from Kaveri (but it's DRDO, lets see when they will come up with the next dream) and basically confirm foreign engines for AMCA.



The F35 is a stealth fighter but that's it, while Rafale offers far more NG capabilities. So NG is not limited by the airframe shaping and the Silent Hornet without the need of external fuel tanks, with internal weapon carriage and upgraded avionics will have several NG features too, that's why it would be the best compromise for us. The best NG fighter remains the FGFA, which is not "only" a stealth fighter, but a true NG fighter.



It's not about the size, but if the aircraft is designed to be used with catapults or not. The Mig 29K or Pak Fa are not, if the Russians develop EMALS, they will develop new AEW aircrafts for the use on them too and most likely suitable UCAVs.

My point was we should develop engine as a National project,de link it from fighter program & then when it is ready strap it to whatever we want,engine is the core thing we must make a priority to master it

 

[sancho]

My point was we should develop engine as a National project,de link it from fighter program & then when it is ready strap it to whatever we want,engine is the core thing we must make a priority to master it

That's correct, but you prefered the fighter option that would take Kaveri as the engine, while we could take the western options, with most likely better consultancy partners.
Personally I do think an indigenous engine development is important, but with out options, we can do fine with foreign engines too. It's not the most important thing we need, a propper indigenous radar is more important, since we need to be able to integrate any weapon to the fighters, that suits our requirements and to use them according to our operational needs. Something that will be difficult with US fighters and US radars!

 

[Echo_419]

That's correct, but you prefered the fighter option that would take Kaveri as the engine, while we could take the western options, with most likely better consultancy partners.
Personally I do think an indigenous engine development is important, but with out options, we can do fine with foreign engines too. It's not the most important thing we need, a propper indigenous radar is more important, since we need to be able to integrate any weapon to the fighters, that suits our requirements and to use them according to our operational needs. Something that will be difficult with US fighters and US radars!

We can always rely on others to give us Radars,but engines are very important & takes years to develop[even the Chinese are not able to develop a reliable one]we should start R&D for every type of Engine from Marine to Air variant

 

[sancho]

We can always rely on others to give us Radars,but engines are very important & takes years to develop[even the Chinese are not able to develop a reliable one]we should start R&D for every type of Engine from Marine to Air variant

To sell us radars, not to integrate any weapon we want. We can get French radars, but can't integrate any Russian weapon that needs radar guidance without source codes and approval. We can even buy US export radars, but with even more restrictions and US fighters will most likely come with US weapons, without the possibility to add Indian let alone Russian stuff.
Look at our vessels, they also use US engines, but the important stuff are the mix of Indian, Russian and western avionics and weapons. That makes them lethal and capable and same will be the case with LCA or AMCA, even if they would have the GE 414 engine. Add an fully developed Indian radar and a mix of French / Israeli avionics and weapons and you have a great mix of capabilities!

 

[Abingdonboy]

Who says I'm talking about the FGFA? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Russians were planning on building a variant on their T-50 prototype for export that didn't involve India, as India has already said it is unwilling for the FGFA to be exported to other foreign nations.

That's not true- the Indians are funding the T-50/PAK-FA program as a whole, you don't pay $30BN (X2) for a variant alone. India WILL have a say in any 3rd party sales by Russia, to think any differently is quite ludicrous.

 

[Echo_419]

To sell us radars, not to integrate any weapon we want. We can get French radars, but can't integrate any Russian weapon that needs radar guidance without source codes and approval. We can even buy US export radars, but with even more restrictions and US fighters will most likely come with US weapons, without the possibility to add Indian let alone Russian stuff.
Look at our vessels, they also use US engines, but the important stuff are the mix of Indian, Russian and western avionics and weapons. That makes them lethal and capable and same will be the case with LCA or AMCA, even if they would have the GE 414 engine. Add an fully developed Indian radar and a mix of French / Israeli avionics and weapons and you have a great mix of capabilities!

Well then we should take up Both a Radar & Engine on a national product basis

 

[sancho]

Well then we should take up Both a Radar & Engine on a national product basis

We should, but not like we did it in LCA, by making the fighter development dependent on the success of indigenous radar, engine or FCS developments. The fighter is the most important part and we can't afford to risk a success, just for the pride of having indigenous subsystems too.
Dhruv is still the best example how to do it! No matter if it was designed by the Germans, no matter if the early version had French engines and a lot of Israeli subsystems, it is an Indian helicopter and we constantly improved it with more and more Indian stuff. More importantly, we constantly learned throughout it's development, production and induction into the forces, which now gets us the know how to re-design it to Rudra => LCH and even go to a fully indigenously developed LUH. Start simple, learn and move on, not make it as complicated as possible, for shallow pride reasons and delay things over and over again!

 

[Echo_419]

We should, but not like we did it in LCA, by making the fighter development dependent on the success of indigenous radar, engine or FCS developments. The fighter is the most important part and we can't afford to risk a success, just for the pride of having indigenous subsystems too.
Dhruv is still the best example how to do it! No matter if it was designed by the Germans, no matter if the early version had French engines and a lot of Israeli subsystems, it is an Indian helicopter and we constantly improved it with more and more Indian stuff. More importantly, we constantly learned throughout it's development, production and induction into the forces, which now gets us the know how to re-design it to Rudra => LCH and even go to a fully indigenously developed LUH. Start simple, learn and move on, not make it as complicated as possible, for shallow pride reasons and delay things over and over again!

Yeah de-link these things with our Aircraft program & when they are ready integrate them,also why isn't HAL taking the Dhruv route to devlop LCA-Mk2 & AMCA is beyond me,perhaps no one wants to help us to build fighter aircraft

 

[sancho]

Yeah de-link these things with our Aircraft program & when they are ready integrate them,also why isn't HAL taking the Dhruv route to devlop LCA-Mk2 & AMCA is beyond me,perhaps no one wants to help us to build fighter aircraft

Simple, because HAL is not the developer of LCA nor AMCA, they only have to produce what ADA designs and DRDO tries to develop. They are surely much happier with FGFA and MTA developments and more capable Russian partners. Help is available (Israelis on radar and avionics, French and Germans on design, French and Russian on engines, even partial help from the US was and is available), only our internal problems are limiting us.

 

[Echo_419]

Simple, because HAL is not the developer of LCA nor AMCA, they only have to produce what ADA designs and DRDO tries to develop. They are surely much happier with FGFA and MTA developments and more capable Russian partners. Help is available (Israelis on radar and avionics, French and Germans on design, French and Russian on engines, even partial help from the US was and is available), only our internal problems are limiting us.

Without massive reforms i don't think that these orgs will ever change the ways in which they function,they should be made accountable for their work