Indian defence & religion

[Subramanian]

Aren't you oversimplying the reasons for the Congress defeat? If rice shortage and hindi agitation were the two reasons Congress lost, then you would have seen Congress still powerful today and would have ruled Tamilnadu anytime in the past 47 years. The fair skinned MGR would not have won the elections if he joined Congress.

And about Periyar - there are certain beliefs(or for that matter most beliefs) of his which I do not subscribe to but I have respect for him as he was not a hypocrite - Atleast he hated christianism and islamism in the similar way he hated hinduism.

no,he did not.

You go read up about him fully from original sources and the nature of his movement,he was a moron and people just piggybacked on him to win some random glory.

You think Congress died in TN,


In 1980 and 1991 in the Lok Sabha elections congress won a great majority,

In 1980,the Indira Gandhi wave won her all the 40 in TN along with DMK and against a populist CM like MGR.

Similarly in 1991, people voted in a novice like Jayalalitha along with the Congress against the DMK led by stalwarts.

If you go and analyze the politics,it is not so straight as you think.

It has Congress,Communists,BJP,the atheistic,tamil nationalist DMk as well as a bunch of Caste parties,AIADMK which is a pure cadre based party supported by a couple of castes and people who want to stop DMK domination.

Every district of TN is a different place on its own.

Is a whole country on its own.

 

[Rig Vedic]

We are not talking about your private home rituals sunny but rather on opening of national projects with Hindu rituals. Obviously you do know that most of these National projects have members of different religious groups. Isn't it imposing on their faith by simply ignoring their sentiments. Why not have a Christian opening ceremony?


Don't tell me that you believe Hindu religious ceremony only entail a crushing of lemon or breaking of coconut. Its an elaborate process sometimes lasting hours appeasing Hindu Gods. Your comparison of secular champagne breaking (read no rituals involved) with Hindu religious Bhumi Puja is beyond ridiculous. All we are saying is India is secular country as such National projects should also be secular in character.

See, the Indic traditions are a part of the civilizational heritage of the "minorities" also.

People like APJ Abdul Kalam have no problem celebrating their own Indic heritage. It's fascists calling themselves liberals who have a problem with people like Kalam.

And in any case, if people want to hold ceremonies from non-Indic traditions also, I am sure nobody will have any problem with that.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

....and what religion would that be? "Joe Shearer" is just a moniker; does not imply that he belongs to a particular religion though for the life of me, I can't figure out why that should be relevant.

There are all kinds of dumb people in this world, including but not limited to these clown who will draw conclusions based on insufficient information.

But some of the most funny clowns I've met are the "Rahu Kalam Clowns". Some years ago, we were helping to set up a multimillion dollar purchase deal with a group from Chennai. Since I'm from India, I was sent home to nurse it through. It just so happened that the time set (to account for time-zone differences) for signing on the dotted line coincided with (I was told) with "Rahu Kalam". So the signatory on this end balked at signing. The deal flopped and the purchasers/receivers had to re-negotiate and cough up a premium just to not let it slip out of their fingers.

And I had a hard (but somewhat amusing) time try to explain that phenomenon to my principals in N.America. They could'nt believe it. While somebody paid for it, of course!

 

[Sashan]

no,he did not.

You go read up about him fully from original sources and the nature of his movement,he was a moron and people just piggybacked on him to win some random glory.

You think Congress died in TN,


In 1980 and 1991 in the Lok Sabha elections congress won a great majority,

In 1980,the Indira Gandhi wave won her all the 40 in TN along with DMK and against a populist CM like MGR.

Similarly in 1991, people voted in a novice like Jayalalitha along with the Congress against the DMK led by stalwarts.

If you go and analyze the politics,it is not so straight as you think.

It has Congress,Communists,BJP,the atheistic,tamil nationalist DMk as well as a bunch of Caste parties,AIADMK which is a pure cadre based party supported by a couple of castes and people who want to stop DMK domination.

Every district of TN is a different place on its own.

Is a whole country on its own.

Mate - I have read some of his books and my opinion was formed because of this. And if you call him moron for his anti-brahminism, you are entitled to. If you ask me, I would call him moron for his separate Dravida state call.
But again he was not a hyprocrite when it came to religion unlike Karunanidhi who would say anything against Rama but will not raise a voice against the Abrahamic religious gods.
As for the AIADMK, it is very moderate when it comes to representing dravidian principles or none but I would want to see how this party will fair the moment the letter D or the word Dravida is removed from the AIADMK.
Most parties in TN need the word Dravida in their party names to survive. (except PMK and other caste based parties). The reason Congress still wins seats in Tamilnadu because of the seat arrangement it has with either ADMK or DMK. Left for themselves, I doubt they would win more than 2 or 3 seats.

 

[Subramanian]

Care to explain the non-practical nature of sacrificing a goat in front of a tank? And aren't you making a sweeping statement when you say nobody will sacrifice or attempt to sacrifice a goat in front of a tank?

Anyways, in a hypothetical situation when someone attempts this, would you tolerate this practice especially if that person tries it in your workplace?

First of all understand the nature of the rituals,

Goat sacrifice is a ceremony that happens only in someone's ancestral village and not in any random place.

Not even in a random place inside that village.

Coconut breaking is a normal ritual which can happen anywhere.

I dont understand how a peaceful 2 minute ritual faces so much flak.

Mate - I have read some of his books and my opinion was formed because of this. And if you call him moron for his anti-brahminism, you are entitled to. If you ask me, I would call him moron for his separate Dravida state call.
But again he was not a hyprocrite when it came to religion unlike Karunanidhi who would say anything against Rama but will not raise a voice against the Abrahamic religious gods.
As for the AIADMK, it is very moderate when it comes to representing dravidian principles or none but I would want to see how this party will fair the moment the letter D or the word Dravida is removed from the AIADMK.
Most parties in TN need the word Dravida in their party names to survive. (except PMK and other caste based parties). The reason Congress still wins seats in Tamilnadu because of the seat arrangement it has with either ADMK or DMK. Left for themselves, I doubt they would win more than 2 or 3 seats.

Dude,

Most of the money spent by Azhagiri & Co came from Congress,you still under estimate the value of money in elections and mass mobilizing.

There are various local guys who enjoy loyalty in an area and often they win regardless of the party they are in,like feudal lords.

Basically you purchase them,you win the elections.

Periyar is not a moron for anti brahminism but he was quite half baked,he had no serious understanding of the society and he was just a reactionary guy with a loud mouth.

As much as his dravida statehood is dangerous and even his ideas otherwise are worthless.

The british used him efficiently to divide society by maligning the brahmins.

Even without him many things had stopped,child marriage/widows issue and all.

He just flared up things unecessarily and even he has supported abrahamic religions.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

See, the Indic traditions are a part of the civilizational heritage of the "minorities" also.

People like APJ Abdul Kalam have no problem celebrating their own Indic heritage. It's fascists calling themselves liberals who have a problem with people like Kalam.

And in any case, if people want to hold ceremonies from non-Indic traditions also, I am sure nobody will have any problem with that.

I am pretty sure of that!

Actually the scientists in ISRO should have slaughtered a buffalo (like they do at the Kamakhya Temple in Assam) to propitiate the gods. That would have been appropriate, enough meat to go around for a celebratory feast. May be the blood could have worked to improve the performance of the heat shield.
At the very least it ought to have been a large Goat as at the time of Dussera.

 

[Sashan]

First of all understand the nature of the rituals,

Goat sacrifice is a ceremony that happens only in someone's ancestral village and not in any random place.

Not even in a random place inside that village.

Coconut breaking is a normal ritual which can happen anywhere.

I dont understand how a peaceful 2 minute ritual faces so much flak.

If it is about a 2 min coconut breaking ritual and if they don't want my presence, I do not give a hoot. I understand certain religious sentiments which helps with their work in that it provides them the peace of mind. For example, the lorry drivers in TN praying to local dieties on the roadside before driving up a treacherous route. I would say I do not want to sit in a lorry having prevented that driver in spending 2 mins to pray.

But complications arise the moment the ritual becomes elaborate - like the bhoomi pooja running for hours and the superior who believes in this wants everyone's presense. That is the part I am opposed to.

 

[protest]

See, the Indic traditions are a part of the civilizational heritage of the "minorities" also.

People like APJ Abdul Kalam have no problem celebrating their own Indic heritage. It's fascists calling themselves liberals who have a problem with people like Kalam.

And in any case, if people want to hold ceremonies from non-Indic traditions also, I am sure nobody will have any problem with that.

Of course, Minorities would probably not say anything against such rituals. I don't care what they think but I as a secular Hindu would not want to discomfort my fellow countrymen, who are involved just as me, by doing an elaborate appeasement to my Gods before every project.Just because APJ kalam has no issue with it, one should not generalize it to every one else.

How is praying to 'vinayak' a Indic tradition not a religious ritual? If there is a Puja involved it cannot be a tradition. I am believer as you are but I am not blind to the sensitivities of others.

 

[Subramanian]

what harm is a bhoomi pooja man?

to be honest,even my own family does elaborate rituals for many things,they used to bore me,

but when i go to the village i see many rituals there and i quite like them,have done 2-3 myself.

all religions have rituals like lent/ramadhan and things like that.

big deal.

 

[Sashan]

First of all understand the nature of the rituals,

Goat sacrifice is a ceremony that happens only in someone's ancestral village and not in any random place.

Not even in a random place inside that village.

Coconut breaking is a normal ritual which can happen anywhere.

I dont understand how a peaceful 2 minute ritual faces so much flak.



Dude,

Most of the money spent by Azhagiri & Co came from Congress,you still under estimate the value of money in elections and mass mobilizing.

There are various local guys who enjoy loyalty in an area and often they win regardless of the party they are in,like feudal lords.

Basically you purchase them,you win the elections.

Periyar is not a moron for anti brahminism but he was quite half baked,he had no serious understanding of the society and he was just a reactionary guy with a loud mouth.

As much as his dravida statehood is dangerous and even his ideas otherwise are worthless.

The british used him efficiently to divide society by maligning the brahmins.

Even without him many things had stopped,child marriage/widows issue and all.

He just flared up things unecessarily and even he has supported abrahamic religions.

I do not underestimate what money can do when it came to elections in TN. And the support the local lords have. But the support does not guarantee wins unless you represent two leaves or rising sun symbols. How do you think the tea shop owners became MLAs?

If congress has that kind of money to spend in TN and influence the results, why would they want to spend that kind of money through Azhagiri?

As for the his support for Abrahamic religions, I would suggest to google for what he said about Christians and Muslims.

 

[protest]

what harm is a bhoomi pooja man?

to be honest,even my own family does elaborate rituals for many things,they used to bore me,

but when i go to the village i see many rituals there and i quite like them,have done 2-3 myself.

all religions have rituals like lent/ramadhan and things like that.

big deal.

Again we are not talking about your private Bhumi Pooja. Do as you like it then. But having an elaborate ritual before every national project which also involves minorities is not right to put it mildly.

Not to mention any ritual has no scientific basis to it.

 

[indushek]

Why have you not objected to it? That is the kind of cowardly conduct that erodes secularism.



How do you know? On the other hand, have you read Kancha Illaiah?

I don't want to talk on this topic as it is one's own belief, but i have read an op ed of Mr. Iliah on Hindu long time back.

Back then i wanted to better vocabulary skills and used to read the editorial pieces (both) and the four or five op eds on center page. I don't remember the whole article as it is some years back, and Mr. Iliah was making points upon emancipation of dalits. Some where in the middle he made a point which shocked me, he says that dalits should take the brahmins along as they (brahmins) too are reeling under poverty and deprivation from those in power.

The point of me remembering this old article was because, in one of your posts u were talking of the dalits thoughts on being bracketed with hindus and of course mentioning of Mr. Iliah.

 

[IND151]

if the stone god in the temple is so powerful that it can protect our rocket if we pray to him...why cant we just the same god then to put our satellites into space as well....ISRO should be headed by priests then

science helps us to build satellites and put them in orbit

faith in god (not superstition) gives boost to our morale and confidence

thus it indirectly helps those ISRO scientists who develop several advanced satellites as they have the faith that God is there to help them and to bless their efforts

faith in god also helps scientists to recover mentally from failures comparatively quicker ( as my understanding says)

such faith (till it doesn't turn a person into a superstitions,lazy person) is good, in this sense

i hope sir Joe will agree with me

 

[Sashan]

what harm is a bhoomi pooja man?

to be honest,even my own family does elaborate rituals for many things,they used to bore me,

but when i go to the village i see many rituals there and i quite like them,have done 2-3 myself.

all religions have rituals like lent/ramadhan and things like that.

big deal.

I don't see any harm in having bhoomi puja or other rituals at your home. The minute it comes out to public places or work place is when the problem starts.

And start mixing the personal agenda of someone or some organization, it becomes deadly.

Again someone here(I do not remember which member few pages back) were saying what is wrong in harmless rituals. And that is the reason I raised the question about the goat sacrifice and whether it is a harmless ritual or harmful. Imagine the situation when the superior officer asks some vegetarians to participate in this ritual.

 

[Rig Vedic]

How is praying to 'vinayak' a Indic tradition not a religious ritual?

They are not mutually exclusive categories.

I am believer as you are but I am not blind to be insensitive to others.

Don't make assumptions about whether I am a believer or not

Generally in India people welcome good wishes from the gods of all traditions

The goal is to make people happy - If it's a public organization or public ceremony, then it should not be too obtrusive, and people from all denominations should be given the opportunity to conduct their rituals, if they so desire.