Indian defence minister draws line at 36 Rafales

[ares]

Pakistan is going for 5th gen planes like J-31 not J-10B.

Oh yeh DSI boy, when Pakistan couldn't even come up with enough cash for those 36 J-10s, even though a preliminary deal was signed back in 2009, they will suddenly have enough cash, for an aircraft, which is still a prototype.

There is an english proverb for this.

A bird in hand is worth two in the bush.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Prasun K. Sengupta's take on this matter which seems pretty rational:

All it takes for the Indian component of cyberspace to go into a senseless tizzy is for a ‘Bandalbaaz’ masquerading as a journalist to highlight selected quotes from a certain Minister’s interaction during a media conclave, and draw spectacularly outrageous conclusions. This in turn gets to be ‘assumed’ as being the gospel truth, with the end-result being a classic case of the blind leading the blind. Take, for instance, the following two selective quotes that originated 48 hours ago:

“By buying 36 Rafales instead of 126, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales,” Parrikar said, adding that this amount was around Rs.900 billion (US$15.51 billion). “We will use this money to buy Tejas LCA pricedat around Rs.1.5 billion each,” he added.

“By buying 36 Rafales at a price less than (what was quoted in response to) the earlier tender for 126aircraft, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales. We will use that money to buy Tejas LCAs”.

Now here’s what it all means. Under the original M-MRCA procurement process for an initial 126 Dassault Aviation Rafales, the first 18 (12 single-seaters and six tandem-seaters) were to be acquired in flyable condition off-the-shelf, for which the Ministry of Defence (MoD) would have had to pay only the acquisition costs and related support infrastructure costs. For the remaining 108 Rafales that were to be licence-built in India (74 single-seaters and 34 tandem-seaters of which 11 were be built from semi-knocked down or SKD kits, 31 from completely knocked down or CKD kits, and 66 made from indigenously manufactured kits or IMK), the MoD would have been required to fork out A) the industrial production costs (for setting up the domestic industrial infrastructure and training a skilled pool of human resources); B) acquisition costs that were to be paid to the MoD-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL); and C) support infrastructure costs for creating the squadron-level and intermediate-level MRO facilities.

Now that the original scheme for procuring 126 Rafales has been abandoned, the MoD will, under Phase-1, be required to pay only the acquisition costs and related support infrastructure costs for the first 36 Rafales. Under Phase-2, an industrial consortium comprising Dassault Aviation and its Indian counterparts from both the private-sector and public-sector will supply up to 171 (108 + 63) locally-assembled Rafales. This consortium—to be dominated by the private-sector—will raise the necessary funding required (for creating the domestic industrial infrastructure and training a skilled pool of human resources) entirely from the capital markets, and will charge the MoD only for the fleet acquisition cost. In other words, the MoD’s Department of Defence Production & Supplies will no longer be required to foot the bill for industrial production costs of the 171 Rafales.


Consequently, this enormous pool of money saved will be invested in R & D activities for the Indian Air Force’s Tejas Mk2 MRCA and the Indian Navy’s LCA (Navy) Mk2. Since both these MRCAs will be brand-new designs, at least five flying prototypes for each type will be required to be built, and each type--Tejas Mk2 and LCA (Navy) Mk2—will be required to undergo at least 2,000 hours of flight-tests before they are awarded their respective airworthiness certifications. For all intents and purposes, these are herculean tasks that require substantial R & D funding-levels,

 

[Superboy]

Oh yeh DSI boy, when Pakistan couldn't even come up with enough cash for those 36 J-10s, even though a preliminary deal was signed back in 2009, they will suddenly have enough cash, for an aircraft, which is still a prototype.

There is an english proverb for this.

A bird in hand is worth two in the bush.

J-10B is a big plane the size of Rafale. For PAF J-10B would have been expensive to operate. J-31 is the size of J-10B. JF-17 is a small plane the size of Gripen. PAF has enough funds to operate JF-17, not J-10B.

 

[Jungibaaz]

You tell us.

Zardari was in China in 2009 to buy 36 J-10s ..Now we know, that PAF will never see those J-10s.

President Zardari to discuss the purchase Fc-20 for PAF ~ ASIAN DEFENCE

Same with those U-214s...that were suppose to bought in 2007..yet 8 yrs down the line ..Pakistan is yet buy a single submarine.

Don't compare this long announced tender, game of hide and seek since 2007. To some hints of considering the J-10, then talks about working with CATIC, possibly purchasing the J-10 and then pulling out of any possibility within maybe 3 years of more serious rumours.

This has been going on for a long time, it would be a huge joke for all if this thing ends with only 36.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

You tell us.

Zardari was in China in 2009 to buy 36 J-10s ..Now we know, that PAF will never see those J-10s.

President Zardari to discuss the purchase Fc-20 for PAF ~ ASIAN DEFENCE

Same with those U-214s...that were suppose to bought in 2007..yet 8 yrs down the line ..Pakistan is yet buy a single submarine.

The thing is PAF was smart enough to know that by the time Rafales would be inducted it would be possible to get some thing superior.

Why buy 36 J-10's when we can get 2 times JF-17's for that price.
This is what IAF is doing now by buying 36 Rafales and saving the money of the remaining 90 to be used on developing and mass production of LCA MK1 and LCA MK2. Hope it is airborne soon. Still it is going to take 5-10 yrs to get to the complete strength.

 

[ConcealCarry]

Mother of all defence deals just aborted after 12 years of bloated pregnancy

36 Rafales until a domestic line is setup up. Its not saving face, its making a decision on a budget.

prime example of delusional bharti

Oh Bhai bus kar dae Ab.
Enough of these mrca saga nonsense.

a new flying coffin in making

ok than. enjoy your LCA Trainer Jets sorry Prototypes

 

[desimorty]

prime example of delusional bharti

Oh you are Pakistani Smarts!

Why buy 36 J-10's when we can get 2 times JF-17's for that price.
This is what IAF is doing now by buying 36 Rafales and saving the money of the remaining 90 to be used on developing and mass production of LCA MK1 and LCA MK2. Hope it is airborne soon. Still it is going to take 5-10 yrs to get to the complete strength.

IAF, No the IAF wants Rafales, the Defence minster that pays the bills has a payment plan, where they pay France for 36 off the shelf Rafales so Dassault will know India is not backing out and commited, and give time to Dassault to find their local partners in India, some of which they have had for 10 years already. But whos going to assemble the Rafale? HAL? perhaps, and who is going to build the sub components? They are basically buying time for Rafale to make the offset policy realistic in India and then make a bid for more aircraft. Infact its how Airbus did it, by already having parts being produced in India before any bid.

 

[airmarshal]

• 9 years of negotations.
• Blowing hot and cold by Indian members here.
• Talking like as if 126 plane contract is what France and Dassault been desperately requesting to save their country and defence industry
  
• Boasting as if India giving cash of $20 billion gives them inherent right to demand, in fact command, technology
• Ends with a whimper. Just 36 planes for a country like India. Qatar has ordered 36. Egypt 24.

 

[egodoc222]

Don't worry F/A 18 SH is still on Table

Thanks but no thanks!!

 

[Odysseus]

Prasun K. Sengupta's take on this matter which seems pretty rational:

All it takes for the Indian component of cyberspace to go into a senseless tizzy is for a ‘Bandalbaaz’ masquerading as a journalist to highlight selected quotes from a certain Minister’s interaction during a media conclave, and draw spectacularly outrageous conclusions. This in turn gets to be ‘assumed’ as being the gospel truth, with the end-result being a classic case of the blind leading the blind. Take, for instance, the following two selective quotes that originated 48 hours ago:

“By buying 36 Rafales instead of 126, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales,” Parrikar said, adding that this amount was around Rs.900 billion (US$15.51 billion). “We will use this money to buy Tejas LCA pricedat around Rs.1.5 billion each,” he added.

“By buying 36 Rafales at a price less than (what was quoted in response to) the earlier tender for 126aircraft, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales. We will use that money to buy Tejas LCAs”.

Now here’s what it all means. Under the original M-MRCA procurement process for an initial 126 Dassault Aviation Rafales, the first 18 (12 single-seaters and six tandem-seaters) were to be acquired in flyable condition off-the-shelf, for which the Ministry of Defence (MoD) would have had to pay only the acquisition costs and related support infrastructure costs. For the remaining 108 Rafales that were to be licence-built in India (74 single-seaters and 34 tandem-seaters of which 11 were be built from semi-knocked down or SKD kits, 31 from completely knocked down or CKD kits, and 66 made from indigenously manufactured kits or IMK), the MoD would have been required to fork out A) the industrial production costs (for setting up the domestic industrial infrastructure and training a skilled pool of human resources); B) acquisition costs that were to be paid to the MoD-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL); and C) support infrastructure costs for creating the squadron-level and intermediate-level MRO facilities.

Now that the original scheme for procuring 126 Rafales has been abandoned, the MoD will, under Phase-1, be required to pay only the acquisition costs and related support infrastructure costs for the first 36 Rafales. Under Phase-2, an industrial consortium comprising Dassault Aviation and its Indian counterparts from both the private-sector and public-sector will supply up to 171 (108 + 63) locally-assembled Rafales. This consortium—to be dominated by the private-sector—will raise the necessary funding required (for creating the domestic industrial infrastructure and training a skilled pool of human resources) entirely from the capital markets, and will charge the MoD only for the fleet acquisition cost. In other words, the MoD’s Department of Defence Production & Supplies will no longer be required to foot the bill for industrial production costs of the 171 Rafales.


Consequently, this enormous pool of money saved will be invested in R & D activities for the Indian Air Force’s Tejas Mk2 MRCA and the Indian Navy’s LCA (Navy) Mk2. Since both these MRCAs will be brand-new designs, at least five flying prototypes for each type will be required to be built, and each type--Tejas Mk2 and LCA (Navy) Mk2—will be required to undergo at least 2,000 hours of flight-tests before they are awarded their respective airworthiness certifications. For all intents and purposes, these are herculean tasks that require substantial R & D funding-levels,

I concur with sengupta on this one. The scale of economics dictates that we go for more Rafale. He even quoted the RM to the word and not twisted his words to fabricate a story.

 

[Indian Jatt]

Don't worry F/A 18 SH is still on Table

hornets fly with strings, and also we will have to buy F-35B if we buy ur EMALS........

Dil Toota tumhara
Lakin iaf had a kick at their balls.

so more MKI and LCA, neither any ToT.

bhai goote kat gye........it will have a very adverse effect on operational capability.....like we have wasted more than a decade to figure out which plane suits us and then took 6 years to buy just 36 rafales.....PAF procuring process is more effective if You want to maintain numbers.......i would had feared Pakistanis if they were cash strapped like India......they would had made their air force world class......

• 9 years of negotations.
• Blowing hot and cold by Indian members here.
• Talking like as if 126 plane contract is what France and Dassault been desperately requesting to save their country and defence industry
  
• Boasting as if India giving cash of $20 billion gives them inherent right to demand, in fact command, technology
• Ends with a whimper. Just 36 planes for a country like India. Qatar has ordered 36. Egypt 24.

we always stand by our friends......AKA Russia, no mistrals for russian navy, no rafales for Indian airforce.....its a complete political backlash.......french became to greedy and got their balls pin down by the Rusoo-indian govt.....russians are ready to give us mig 35 and su-35 all the time.......lets see what happens

 

[Indian Patriot]

so was the purchase of 36 rafales just to save face??

Isn't that obvious? The whole MMRCA was a fiasco for India. So much noise and fan fare and ultimately India settles for a 3rd generation obsolete aircraft over a proven battle tested 4.5 gen aircraft.

P.S. - Where are those Indian keyboard military experts who were predicting India will have 100+ Rafales?

 

[NKVD]

Isn't that obvious? The whole MMRCA was a fiasco for India. So much noise and fan fare and ultimately India settles for a 3rd generation obsolete aircraft over a proven battle tested 4.5 gen aircraft.

P.S. - Where are those Indian keyboard military experts who were predicting India will have 100+ Rafales?

The india poor nation that can not afford it we are happy with 3.5 gen plane I hoping Mod extend life of mig-21 further 20 year's more

 

[Indian Patriot]

The india poor nation that can not afford it

Lame excuse.

If India cannot afford 126 aircraft why did they then float a tender in the first place? India is the only country in the world that has such a pathetic and lethargic defense acquisition process. 5 years are taken to decide whether any armed service needs a product or not, another 5 years is wasted when white elephants like DRDO and other PSUs start yapping that they can make an "indigenous" version of the one that India is planning to import, another 10 years will go in DRDO+PSUs in wasting public money on failed trials, then wait for another 5+5 years as India floats a tender and starts trials. By the time India finally inducts the product it is time to retire it.

Think I am exaggerating? Look at the state of Indian tube artillery. The last gun was imported ~1987.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I don't know why some Indians thought they would "scare" China with a few Western made fighter jets.

Stronger domestic production is much more scary than that, since domestic platforms can be produced in essentially endless numbers barring resource constraints.