Indian AWACS Reloaded: Competition For 6 Aircraft Announced

[janon]

...
Believe it or not,the biggest threat actually comes from vastly superior PLAGF rocket artillery and not the other thingies....atleast that's what I have been told.

And PLAAF, which vastly outnumbers us and can keep pounding our ground forces and rear echelons. Unfortunately, the himalayas are not a barrier against jets, like they are against tanks and ground forces.

 

[Omega007]

And PLAAF, which vastly outnumbers us and can keep pounding our ground forces and rear echelons. Unfortunately, the himalayas are not a barrier against jets, like they are against tanks and ground forces.

Again....it's not what you have but what you can bring to the battle that is most important.Of course PLAAF has more numbers,but how many air fields do they have in TAR and how many has IAF Eastern and Northern commands at their respective disposables??
At what altitudes are those situated??
Unless one takes all these variables into their calculation,he can not get the full picture and all debates therefore will remain meaningless.

 

[janon]

Again....it's not what you have but what you can bring to the battle that is most important.Of course PLAAF has more numbers,but how many air fields do they have in TAR and how many has IAF Eastern and Northern commands at their respective disposables??
At what altitudes are those situated??
Unless one takes all these variables into their calculation,he can not get the full picture and all debates therefore will remain meaningless.

I know, and it is with full knowledge of the fact that these variables exist, that I made that statement. In the 1962 war, the IAF would have been much more suuperior, had it been used. At that time PLAAF had very few airbases in Tibet, and more importantly, very few aircrafts that could take off with any meaningful loads from that height and have the necessary range. Things are different now. Not only do they have airbases and airstrips in TAR that can cater to all their fighters, but their fighters themselves are very long legged, and can take off from other regions of the country if necessary, and still attack the border as well as into India. Not to mention the fact that they have refuellers as well. Long ranged, heavy, twin engined aircrafts especially with refueller support makes a big difference to the old equations.

As for us - as of now, we have two or three MKI squadrons deployed in the north east. We cannot afford to move significant number of fighters away from the west. Some of them will have to be permanently tied down in the west. As of now, the MKIs are the only fighters with sufficient range and loiter time to make a difference in the east. Now check out how many flanker copies and derivatives China has, and produces each year.

Airbases in lanzhou and chengdu military regions can attack India. That's a total of 61 airbases right there. Assuming that even ten percent of those bases can support full fledged operations against India, that is more than the number of airbases we can dedicate as of now.

 

[he-man]

Do you have a comprehension problem boss??Air dropping light tanks where....where exactly they are gonna drop them??Above the hill tops??Or the valleys??You think those light tanks could possibly face and emerge victorious against MBTs??And what tank destroyers??Tank destroyers are things of past.If they do bring those heavy vehicles over the narrow mountain passes,then god help them (if there is one really).

What far suitable armaments - be more specific and name them.

And who says there is no MBTs in those regions??I have seen T 72CIAs and BMP 2s deployed there in quite large numbers,mostly for fighting local battles and not to mount an offensive.

Besides,what's a heavy MBT??Where did you pull that out from boss??

As far as artillery goes,I'm sorry to say you are again wrong.IA is looking for only towed howitzers for mountain areas,no self propelled or mounted guns.Yes,PLA can bring their SP Arty forward to a certain point,but LAC and TAR are not the same thing - the TAR is a pleatu and can support heavy SF guns but not the LAC.And for arty support in LAC,PLA still relies predominantly on their license manufactured D 30 122mm towed howitzers which are already outranged by our 105mm LFGs.
Besides,our gun positions are situated in reverse slopes where as they are on the open and featureless Tibetan pleatu....now go figure out whose gonna get the tactical advantage in that situation.

Besides,most important fact is IA Eastern Command outnumbers them very heavily in the NE.The 1962 era stone-mud sanghars have been replaced with concrete and corrugated steel structures,inter-connected by communication trenches.You think those kind of in-depth static defensive fortifications are very easy to overcome??And that too on such high altitude and treacherous terrain??Then why couldn't the IA manage to breach the Ichogil canals and Pakistanis the DCBs in 1971 even with all their tank supports??




Utter as much as your heart pleases.No one takes your posts seriously here....you should've figured it out by now with your supposed high iq brain.
To be honest,I've a limit to endure bs,so I'm not gonna reply to your posts.From now on,you are on my ignore list.

Just look at ur own condition,fighting with at least 4 people all saying the same thing,guess u should have figured that by now how stupid and foolish ur claims are.

Anyone even entertaining ur claims is wasting his/her time

 

[Omega007]

I know, and it is with full knowledge of the fact that these variables exist, that I made that statement. In the 1962 war, the IAF would have been much more suuperior, had it been used. At that time PLAAF had very few airbases in Tibet, and more importantly, very few aircrafts that could take off with any meaningful loads from that height and have the necessary range. Things are different now. Not only do they have airbases and airstrips in TAR that can cater to all their fighters, but their fighters themselves are very long legged, and can take off from other regions of the country if necessary, and still attack the border as well as into India. Not to mention the fact that they have refuellers as well. Long ranged, heavy, twin engined aircrafts especially with refueller support makes a big difference to the old equations.

As for us - as of now, we have two or three MKI squadrons deployed in the north east. We cannot afford to move significant number of fighters away from the west. Some of them will have to be permanently tied down in the west. As of now, the MKIs are the only fighters with sufficient range and loiter time to make a difference in the east. Now check out how many flanker copies and derivatives China has, and produces each year.

Airbases in lanzhou and chengdu military regions can attack India. That's a total of 61 airbases right there. Assuming that even ten percent of those bases can support full fledged operations against India, that is more than the number of airbases we can dedicate as of now.

Good lord!!Where did you find that 61 from??!!I see only 3 air bases in each military regions and that too 1000+ km away!!Here is a map,see for yourself
3.bp.blogspot.com/-YsrUKHrd3oU/TlbjKg8k7UI/AAAAAAAAAPc/nWBmfKb79Bg/s1600/Slide-3.jpg

And how many refulers does the PLAAF have at present??How many of them can they deploy in operation against India??And do you think that refullers are answer of your every damn problems??You think refullers can compensate for lack of air bases??Well they can't - it will affect and limit their scope of operations very seriously and they know it very well.PLA has deployed quite a big nos of TBMs in TAR just to compensate its disparity vis-a-vis IAF.

There is virtually no airbases across the LAC due to multitude of reasons but most important 2 of them are

1.the average altitude of Tibetan pleatu is 5000 meter ASL.Due to the rarified atmosphere at that height,the can take off with very limited fuel and ordnance.It's just not viable enough for technical reasons.

2.Secondly,PLAAF knows it very well that if they set up their bases close to LAC,their assets would become vulnerable from India's conventionally armed Prithvi and Agni missiles...the same way IAF forward bases are vulnerable to Chinese missile strikes at present.
And that's exactly why IAF will never place their assets in the forward bases for a prolonged period during any future hostility.

By 2018,IAF will have 272 MKIs in their inventory,so they can deploy atleast 11 squadrons (assuming 18 fighters per squad) for air defence roles.And upgraded Mig 27s,Bisons and Jaguar Darin 3s will be used for CAS roles.Now remember,most of the IAF sorties will be defensive under support of friendly ground Air Defence forces.But same won't be the case with PLAAF,if they can actually mount a viable number of offensive sorties in Indian territory.But given their lack of air field infra in close proximity to LAC,it will be highly problematic for them.

 

[janon]

Good lord!!Where did you find that 61 from??!!I see only 3 air bases in each military regions and that too 1000+ km away!!Here is a map,see for yourself
3.bp.blogspot.com/-YsrUKHrd3oU/TlbjKg8k7UI/AAAAAAAAAPc/nWBmfKb79Bg/s1600/Slide-3.jpg

Those are the headquarters of their fighter "divisions". Not operational airbases or airstrips that they can land and take off from. Here is a list of all airbases used by the PLAAF:
List of People's Liberation Army Air Force airbases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Check out how many are in the Chengdu and Lanzhou military regions.

By 2018,IAF will have 272 MKIs in their inventory,so they can deploy atleast 11 squadrons (assuming 18 fighters per squad) for air defence roles.And upgraded Mig 27s,Bisons and Jaguar Darin 3s will be used for CAS roles.Now remember,most of the IAF sorties will be defensive under support of friendly ground Air Defence forces.But same won't be the case with PLAAF,if they can actually mount a viable number of offensive sorties in Indian territory.But given their lack of air field infra in close proximity to LAC,it will be highly problematic for them.

The mig-27s will be gone by 2016. That apart, the air force is not simply about CAS - it is also for interdiction of rear areas, communication lines, ammunition dumps, supply lines ets, which has to be done in enemy territory. It was the strike on Munto Dhalo that effectively left the mujahideens to their fate during the Kargil war. In the case of war with China, CAS and CAP are not all that will be expected of the IAF - it will also have to blow up infrastructure like railways and roads and bridges in Tibet, so that the PLA cannot keep bringing division after division of reinforcements. That is also part of tactical strikes, not strategic bombing. The PLAAF can keep mounting offensive interdiction sorties in Indian territory with their long ranged fighters, which they have a lot more of than we do.

And as pointed out, they have plenty of useable airstrips and airbases in the vicinity.

 

[Omega007]

Those are the headquarters of their fighter "divisions". Not operational airbases or airstrips that they can land and take off from. Here is a list of all airbases used by the PLAAF:
List of People's Liberation Army Air Force airbases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Check out how many are in the Chengdu and Lanzhou military regions.



The mig-27s will be gone by 2016. That apart, the air force is not simply about CAS - it is also for interdiction of rear areas, communication lines, ammunition dumps, supply lines ets, which has to be done in enemy territory. It was the strike on Munto Dhalo that effectively left the mujahideens to their fate during the Kargil war. In the case of war with China, CAS and CAP are not all that will be expected of the IAF - it will also have to blow up infrastructure like railways and roads and bridges in Tibet, so that the PLA cannot keep bringing division after division of reinforcements. That is also part of tactical strikes, not strategic bombing. The PLAAF can keep mounting offensive interdiction sorties in Indian territory with their long ranged fighters, which they have a lot more of than we do.

And as pointed out, they have plenty of useable airstrips and airbases in the vicinity.

I stand corrected.But many of those airfields are actually civilian air ports,some are ALGs and FABs.PLAAF aircrafts are not stationed there at a permanent basis.
Besides,you have to understand that these are located at high altitude and aircrafts operating from there will be severely limited in their load bearing capacity.I've got a pdf file on the ill effects of altitude on the load bearing capacity of an aircraft.According to that paper,depending on the altitude and climate,the load bearing capacity could be reduced by anywhere between 30-50% of the normal capacity.I'll try to find the link to post here.

And Mig 27s are going no where under present circumstances.Only those earliest models will be decommissioned by 2018.The rest will be upgraded and will be used till 2025 before being replaced by LCA MkII.

Again,I never said that IAF won't mount battlefield air interdiction operations against PLA transportation infra and ammo and supply dumps.I said MOST of the IAF effort would be air defence against intruding PLAAF aircrafts and provide CAS to IA.I said MOSTLY,not ONLY.
Beside,both sides have deployed very dense air defence network on ground.Though at this moment,the Chinese have a slight edge in this regard,but IAF is not far behind either.They are already deploying 8 squadrons Akash MkI ESHORADS and replacing the earlier mechanically steered 3d CARs with new longer range LRDE developed 4D AESA radars.So tactical offensive air interdiction will be somewhat problematic for both sides.
Besides,the PLAAF are on the featureless Tibetan pleatu and there can not terrain masking techniques very effectively to mask their approach.But the mountain will give IAF plenty of opportunity to mask its approach.Although it's not an overwhelming or decisive advantage for IAF given the bigger numbers of PLAAF,but could be an useful one none the less.

And again,how many divisions can PLA possibly bring forward after sparing enough for the Russian and Eastern fronts??They can bring 200k troops from Chengdu MR to the NE front.On the other hand IA Eastern command has presently 12 mountain divisions in close proximity with 2 more mountain divisions,1 mountain artillery division and 3-4 independent armored brigades of T 90MS tanks under the process of raising.The IA troops no longer have to fight under open without any defensive structures.It's not gonna be easy for PLA after the kind of in-depth static defensive fortifications have come online lately.

And how many Su variant strike fighters PLAAF could deploy as per you??I mean the J 10s most probably are not gonna be employed in interdiction missions....they simply don't have the endurance without in-flight refuelling.That leaves the Su 30MKs and Su 27S/J 11s for interdiction missions.Question is how many can they divert??Like IAF will divert probably 180 MKIs leaving the rest 100 for western front.Both the Su 30MKs and J 11/J 11As are equipped with simple mechanically steered mono pulse Doppler radars.Only the B variants are quite a match against MKI.That's also one of the reasons why Sancho told that IAF is still in an advantageous position - though how much of help this technological advantage would provide remains to be seen.

 

[ejaz007]

India’s AWACS Programs

Latest Update:

India still looking into buying 3 more A-50EI AWACS.

Aug 15/14: AWACS – more A-50EI? Russian media say that India may be reconsidering its AWACS needs, and buying another 3 A-50EIs after all:

“India is mulling possible delivery of another three AEW&C aircrafts, talks are on now,” the commission’s source said. He did not specify a timeline planned for a deal to strike.

The delivery of AEW&C aircrafts is planned “in the same configuration” as under the agreement in 2003, he said.

Meanwhile, the source added that after the A-50 delivery a contract for their maintenance was signed with India…”

India’s government recently changed hands in a BJP landslide, and the new government is trying to push a number of defense projects forward. It’s hard to say whether India is trying to compare more A-50s vs. the DRDO AWACS program, or simply decided that India will need 6 full AWACS planes long before 2020. If they are in the same configuration, of course, the IL-76s will need to head to Israel for modifications. Sources: ITAR-TASS, “India plans to buy 3 radar reconnaissance aircrafts A-50 in Russia”.

Surya’s Chariots: India’s AWACS Programs

 

[Echo_419]

India’s AWACS Programs

Latest Update:

India still looking into buying 3 more A-50EI AWACS.

Aug 15/14: AWACS – more A-50EI? Russian media say that India may be reconsidering its AWACS needs, and buying another 3 A-50EIs after all:

“India is mulling possible delivery of another three AEW&C aircrafts, talks are on now,” the commission’s source said. He did not specify a timeline planned for a deal to strike.

The delivery of AEW&C aircrafts is planned “in the same configuration” as under the agreement in 2003, he said.

Meanwhile, the source added that after the A-50 delivery a contract for their maintenance was signed with India…”

India’s government recently changed hands in a BJP landslide, and the new government is trying to push a number of defense projects forward. It’s hard to say whether India is trying to compare more A-50s vs. the DRDO AWACS program, or simply decided that India will need 6 full AWACS planes long before 2020. If they are in the same configuration, of course, the IL-76s will need to head to Israel for modifications. Sources: ITAR-TASS, “India plans to buy 3 radar reconnaissance aircrafts A-50 in Russia”.

Surya’s Chariots: India’s AWACS Programs

A-50s are probably for a much larger Falcon System & DRDO's system is smaller one to Supplement the A-50s

 

[ANPP]

A-50s are probably for a much larger Falcon System & DRDO's system is smaller one to Supplement the A-50s

Not as supplement, rather 6 A50 can cover only nother sky of India that is J&K, Punjab and UP. You know there is a lot of space where DRDO awacs can be used independently.

 

[Abingdonboy]

India’s AWACS Programs

Latest Update:

India still looking into buying 3 more A-50EI AWACS.

Aug 15/14: AWACS – more A-50EI? Russian media say that India may be reconsidering its AWACS needs, and buying another 3 A-50EIs after all:

“India is mulling possible delivery of another three AEW&C aircrafts, talks are on now,” the commission’s source said. He did not specify a timeline planned for a deal to strike.

The delivery of AEW&C aircrafts is planned “in the same configuration” as under the agreement in 2003, he said.

Meanwhile, the source added that after the A-50 delivery a contract for their maintenance was signed with India…”

India’s government recently changed hands in a BJP landslide, and the new government is trying to push a number of defense projects forward. It’s hard to say whether India is trying to compare more A-50s vs. the DRDO AWACS program, or simply decided that India will need 6 full AWACS planes long before 2020. If they are in the same configuration, of course, the IL-76s will need to head to Israel for modifications. Sources: ITAR-TASS, “India plans to buy 3 radar reconnaissance aircrafts A-50 in Russia”.

Surya’s Chariots: India’s AWACS Programs

Separate projects- the A-50s are for the Israeli PHALCON AWACS whilst the procurement of 6 wide-bodied airliner a/c for which this thread is about relates to the AWACS (INDIA) development, a project under DRDO to develop an indigenous 360" AWACS with a radardome and with comparable specs to the PHALCON AWACS.

Not as supplement, rather 6 A50 can cover only nother sky of India that is J&K, Punjab and UP. You know there is a lot of space where DRDO awacs can be used independently.

India needs far more than 6 AWACS, even if they are 6 PHALCONS. With the 6 PHALCONS (3+3) and 3 DRDO/CABS EMB-145 AWACS the IAF can probably just about cover the Chinese and Pak borders (assuming 80% availability) but there will be no coverage of mainland/central India, no support for the South, for A&N or for IN CBGs and fighters and just to cover the Pak and Chinese borders will be stretching the 9 a/c fleet to the limit and if 1-2 go down there will be serious gaps left open. At least 10-16 AWACS (India) will need to be procured from 2019 onwards and 4-6 more DRDO/CAB EMB-145 AWACS would be useful also not to mention the IN procuring their own fixed wing AWACS systems to go onboard their larger ACCs and to be operated from the shore (E-2Ds most likely).

 

[ANPP]

India needs far more than 6 AWACS, even if they are 6 PHALCONS. With the 6 PHALCONS (3+3) and 3 DRDO/CABS EMB-145 AWACS the IAF can probably just about cover the Chinese and Pak borders (assuming 80% availability) but there will be no coverage of mainland/central India, no support for the South, for A&N or for IN CBGs and fighters and just to cover the Pak and Chinese borders will be stretching the 9 a/c fleet to the limit and if 1-2 go down there will be serious gaps left open. At least 10-16 AWACS (India) will need to be procured from 2019 onwards and 4-6 more DRDO/CAB EMB-145 AWACS would be useful also not to mention the IN procuring their own fixed wing AWACS systems to go onboard their larger ACCs and to be operated from the shore (E-2Ds most likely).

Thats what I said.

AWACS availability wont be more than 50% anytime. I think Punjab/J&k and UP region is the highest probability region when it comes to AWACS operation, as they are not mere early warning systems but evolvedas battle field management system.

 

[sancho]

India needs far more than 6 AWACS, even if they are 6 PHALCONS. With the 6 PHALCONS (3+3) and 3 DRDO/CABS EMB-145 AWACS the IAF can probably just about cover the Chinese and Pak borders (assuming 80% availability) but there will be no coverage of mainland/central India, no support for the South, for A&N or for IN CBGs

IAF has stated a requirement of around 15 x aircrafts to cover the border areas (there is no need to cover the center), but this number doesn't include the coastal areas, which have less importance of course, by the lack of threats. Sooner or later we will add AWACS there too, but surely don't need highly expensive Phalcon AWACS or similar. In fact, it would be better to get more EMB 145 DRDO AWACS now, as a fast to induct choice and divert them later to the coastal area, when more capable DRDO AWACS could be inducted.
IN has their own requirement of AEW aircrafts, but only for their carriers and dependent on what kind of carriers they get.

 

[Echo_419]

Separate projects- the A-50s are for the Israeli PHALCON AWACS whilst the procurement of 6 wide-bodied airliner a/c for which this thread is about relates to the AWACS (INDIA) development, a project under DRDO to develop an indigenous 360" AWACS with a radardome and with comparable specs to the PHALCON AWACS.


India needs far more than 6 AWACS, even if they are 6 PHALCONS. With the 6 PHALCONS (3+3) and 3 DRDO/CABS EMB-145 AWACS the IAF can probably just about cover the Chinese and Pak borders (assuming 80% availability) but there will be no coverage of mainland/central India, no support for the South, for A&N or for IN CBGs and fighters and just to cover the Pak and Chinese borders will be stretching the 9 a/c fleet to the limit and if 1-2 go down there will be serious gaps left open. At least 10-16 AWACS (India) will need to be procured from 2019 onwards and 4-6 more DRDO/CAB EMB-145 AWACS would be useful also not to mention the IN procuring their own fixed wing AWACS systems to go onboard their larger ACCs and to be operated from the shore (E-2Ds most likely).

Is there really no alternative to the American plane E-2D & why not order more DRDO systems as a stop gap measure

 

[sancho]

Is there really no alternative to the American plane E-2D & why not order more DRDO systems as a stop gap measure

Not for the carrier operations, for shore based operations there are other alternatives of course, inculding the EMB 145 DRDO AWACS, but DRDO themselfs are the problem, since they already want to jump on the next project, instead of taking full advantage of the current one.