Indian Army: Shameful Caste Discrimination

[ghazi52]

https://www.facebook.com/

 

[scorpionx]

Thank you again for the opportunity to explain myself. Despite my understanding that you are not sincere in getting any answer from me, since you thought it an opportune time that I may have left after my 'bored' comment.


You Sir, really are an incorrigible defender of every atrocity committed by Mahan Aryan Indian Army.


You defend your Army's atrocities like a squinted follower, be it historic as in anti Muslim killings in Hyderabad State in 1948 or more recent endeavours such as its inhumane occupation and brutal suppression of Kashmir or against insurgencies all across India that keep it busy like a flee infested existence.


Here is my pov in so many words:

1. Informed you that there is caste based discrimination.
2. Informed you that caste based recruitment was a norm in post independence Indian Army.
3. Informed you that there is no solid evidence that regiments like Maratha Regiment, Rajasthan Rifles, Dogra Regiment and Jat Regiment were indeed not recruited along caste, religion, region lines admittedly, until recently and even to this day except the claims of Indian Army.
4. Named the regiments to show you that recruitment was not just by region, but also caste and or religious lines.
5. Also pointed out that the British had caste-based units not because of their own designs but inherent Hindu beliefs and every day practices, and that the Indian Army after independence did continue caste-based organisation, recruitment and discrimination. Are we so naive as to believe that a traditional Army has gotten rid of its traditional practice so completely and we are to take its word for it?
6. Explained that your ridiculing me personally and the "notion" of caste based discrimination in Indian Army amounts to what else but YOUR LAME ATTEMPTS TO DEFEND CASTE BASED DISCRIMINATION PREVALENT AMONG INDIAN ARMY OFFICERS.

Please go on with your usual self praising rampage and attempts to ridicule me, all the while providing more proof of your service in support of an inhumane practice.


Have you ever considered why the Indian Navy and Indian Air force is not accused of discrimination in recruitment or selection. Why just the Indian Army. Don't expect you to admit anything that eerily looks, sounds and smells like a smoking gun.


I have explained my pov despite my opinion of you to the contrary.

I am not sure, why you are missing the obvious. Indian army follows a regional regimental structure, a model that has traditionally been followed in countries like Britain and France. For example, the French army recruited disproportionately from the North and East of the country. The British faced troubles in recruiting from areas like parts of Scotland and Greater London (not for class discrimination issues but purely for socio-economic factors) and recruits heavily from economically depressed regions like West Midland, its North East, Wales, Ireland and Commonwealth which supplies almost 10% of its recruits.

In the Indian Army, recruitment follows a class based model. Class, here as you have presumed is not a fixed religious, caste or linguistic unit. In fact it is a carefully planned composition of different fixed units. For example, in Punjab regiment a battalion consists of two Sikh companies and two Dogra companies. It is not essentially a Punjabi speaking regiment but a mix of Punjabis, Jammuites, and Himachalis. In Bihar regiment, a battalion can have say, two Bihari companies and two Adivasi companies.

It is a region based model (and not at all a caste based one) structured by the British after the 1857 mutiny to counter the Russian threat to its North West. Indian army, still follows the policy of recruiting from its traditionally dense recruitment zones, which despite mounting political pressure was heavily defended by the Army (ironically, vocal supporters of traditional recruitment policy came from the most least represented communities, Cariappa, Thimayya, J N Choudhury and Sam Manekshaw), for completely different reasons which have no connection with martial race theory or caste based discrimination at all. These men were Sandhurst educated liberal commanders who shared no prejudice on religious or caste lines.

 

[Shane]

I am not sure, why you are missing the obvious. Indian army follows a regional regimental structure, a model that has traditionally been followed in countries like Britain and France. For example, the French army recruited disproportionately from the North and East of the country. The British faced troubles in recruiting from areas like parts of Scotland and Greater London (not for class discrimination issues but purely for socio-economic factors) and recruits heavily from economically depressed regions like West Midland, its North East, Wales, Ireland and Commonwealth which supplies almost 10% of its recruits.

In the Indian Army, recruitment follows a class based model. Class, here as you have presumed is not a fixed religious, caste or linguistic unit. In fact it is a carefully planned composition of different fixed units. For example, in Punjab regiment a battalion consists of two Sikh companies and two Dogra companies. It is not essentially a Punjabi speaking regiment but a mix of Punjabis, Jammuites, and Himachalis. In Bihar regiment, a battalion can have say, two Bihari companies and two Adivasi companies.

It is a region based model (and not at all a caste based one) structured by the British after the 1857 mutiny to counter the Russian threat to its North West. Indian army, still follows the policy of recruiting from its traditionally dense recruitment zones, which despite mounting political pressure was heavily defended by the Army (ironically, vocal supporters of traditional recruitment policy came from the most least represented communities, Cariappa, Thimayya, J N Choudhury and Sam Manekshaw), for completely different reasons which have no connection with martial race theory or caste based discrimination at all. These men were Sandhurst educated liberal commanders who shared no prejudice on religious or caste lines.

Thank you for replying without ridiculing or throwing personal insults.

Good post indeed. I have no problem admitting that you have explained the recruitment method very well and explained that it is about class and not caste. To me caste and class are not that much far apart as classes more or less fall in line with Caste. Am I wrong?

I still have some more questions that I would much appreciate if you answered.

 

[scorpionx]

Thank you for replying without ridiculing or throwing personal insults.

Good post indeed. I have no problem admitting that you have explained the recruitment method very well and explained that it is about class and not caste. To me caste and class are not that much far apart as classes more or less fall in line with Caste. Am I wrong?

I still have some more questions that I would much appreciate if you answered.

Both are wide apart even if we consider 'class' in its traditional socio-economic sense. In Indian Army, as I already said earlier a class can be composed of different religious, caste or linguistic groups. Take for example, the post Mutiny Punjab regiment model. It had two companies of Punjabi Muslims, one of Dogras and one of Jat Sikhs. You can see, the regiment had nothing to do with specific caste, but a composite of specific fixed class units. Sikh regiment is a fixed class regiment which recruits Jat Sikhs, Mazhabi and Ramdasia Sikhs(A fixed class composed of different caste groups, spot the difference). In military term, Class is not a single caste but amalgamation of several linguistic, religious and caste groups.

 

[anant_s]

The question is

Why is this thread in our strategic and foreign affairs?

Why is Indian army recruitment any of our concern?

Our strategic planning is not effected by whether the commander or the soldier in front is a dalit or kaushtriya or anybody else.

Our foreign affairs are not effected by it.

The thread should be in the indian defence forum.

@WAJsal @Jungibaaz

It really doesnt concern us.


As for the thread. We have a video of an indian soldier. Hmm

Its a fact that the caste system exists in india ( not saying entire india is plagued. Just saying it exists) and its also a fact that recently due to nationalist govts many groups who held the caste values dear have begun promoting it.

Yet we have another indian soldier claiming something else and making good points.

I would take @Joe Shearer word on this since he has served for many many years.

Quite frankly it does not concern whether they are swapping wives or using caste system.

Our army is meant to fight theirs. Simple as that. Their personak recruitment and lives matter not to us nor concern us.
.7 pages of absolute nothing.

This is a breath of fresh air!
Respect.

 

[Shane]

Both are wide apart even if we consider 'class' in its traditional socio-economic sense. In Indian Army, as I already said earlier a class can be composed of different religious, caste or linguistic groups. Take for example, the post Mutiny Punjab regiment model. It had two companies of Punjabi Muslims, one of Dogras and one of Jat Sikhs. You can see, the regiment had nothing to do with specific caste, but a composite of specific fixed class units. Sikh regiment is a fixed class regiment which recruits Jat Sikhs, Mazhabi and Ramdasia Sikhs(A fixed class composed of different caste groups, spot the difference). In military term, Class is not a single caste but amalgamation of several linguistic, religious and caste groups.

My point is that the discrimination becomes visible as you go into the details of how the specific battalions within the regiments are recruited. that the regiments have class based battalions that are specifically selected from a particular religion and or region and or race.

Is there a fixed definition of class?

Why is this practice not followed by Indian Navy or Air force?

For example: Can a guy, an Indian, from Kerala can get selected in any other regional regiments battalions, in Indian Army, like Jat regiment's Hindu specific battalions?

I think the answer is no.

So my question:
Why is this practice not followed by The Indian Navy or Air force?
Is a very valid one.

The recruitment is after all based on discrimination of one or the other reasons, motives or designs and it is admittedly claimed to be along class lines by Indian Army.

@Jungibaaz I am still not satisfied with some of my replies that have been deleted as insults. They had good points in them conforming with the flow of thoughts. But I do thank you for cleaning the thread, although you did delete more of mine than.

 

[scorpionx]

My point is that the discrimination becomes visible as you go into the details of how the specific battalions within the regiments are recruited. that the regiments have class based battalions that are specifically selected from a particular religion and or region and or race.

Is there a fixed definition of class?

Why is this practice not followed by Indian Navy or Air force?

For example: Can a guy, an Indian, from Kerala can get selected in any other regional regiments battalions, in Indian Army, like Jat regiment's Hindu specific battalions?

I think the answer is no.

So my question:
Why is this practice not followed by The Indian Navy or Air force?
Is a very valid one.

The recruitment is after all based on discrimination of one or the other reasons, motives or designs and it is admittedly claimed to be along class lines by Indian Army.

@Jungibaaz I am still not satisfied with some of my replies that have been deleted as insults. They had good points in them conforming with the flow of thoughts. But I do thank you for cleaning the thread, although you did delete more of mine than of poor joe who personally insulted me repeated before I returned the favour and "sheared" the misplaced pompous ego.

In Navy and Airforce too, selections are still made heavily from traditional recruiting areas. For example, two landlocked states, Haryana and Himachal Pradesh provides majority of the Navy recruits. Maharashtra, Karnataka, Tamilnadu, MP and Chattishgarh are heavily underrepresented states in Indian Navy. Haryana, Himachal and Uttarakhand are heavily over represented states in Indian Airforce. The over-represented and under-represented states in Navy and Airforce are quite similar as Indian Army. Just because they are much smaller in size, different combat requirements there has never been any necessity to create any fixed class units.

You are right in putting up argument against the fixed class mechanism and for a mixed class unit where a Keralian can fight alongwith with a Haryanvee jat. This is an argument that has long been debated by Indian Parliamentarians. Politicians like Nehru, from long before Indian Independence were vocal against fixed class recruitment in British Indian Army and were adamant to discontinue the traditional colonial policy of zone specific recruitment.Because they thought composition of Indian Army after Independence should reflect the diversity of its national life. But Military commanders have opposed these ideas purely based on technical factors which are difficult for politicians (who rely on vote-bank politics to win in their constituencies) to fathom, consciously or unconsciously.

Military commanders on field argue, that cohesive units with close historical bonds, shared language and culture fight better than mixed units in battles. For example, as economists like Dora Costa and Matthew Kahn had shown in their analysis that ethnically more cohesive units who had fought in American Civil War had least tendencies to mutiny and desert, more resilience to bite the ground and fight, and more tendency to re-enlist. In their words, 'cohesiveness seemed to have its rewards in military effectiveness.'

After, the post 1962 debacle India raised its Military with an enormous growth rate and to release the Army from its domestic compulsions created a vast paramilitary force. You can see, how diverse it is compared to the Armed forces recruitment structure. The merit of Army recruitment policy is a pure military one (which was vehemently guarded by Sandhurst educated commanders), not any caste or regional prejudice. I hope this helps.

 

[Shane]

In Navy and Airforce too, selections are still made heavily from traditional recruiting areas. For example, two landlocked states, Haryana and Himachal Pradesh provides majority of the Navy recruits. Maharashtra, Karnataka, Tamilnadu, MP and Chattishgarh are heavily underrepresented states in Indian Navy. Haryana, Himachal and Uttarakhand are heavily over represented states in Indian Airforce. The over-represented and under-represented states in Navy and Airforce are quite similar as Indian Army. Just because they are much smaller in size, different combat requirements there has never been any necessity to create any fixed class units.

Thank you for the reply. My pov is slightly different as I allude to the widely observed caste system in the Indian society and its reflection in the Army that observes class based segregation in its regiments.

You are right in putting up argument against the fixed class mechanism and for a mixed class unit where a Keralian can fight alongwith with a Haryanvee jat. This is an argument that has long been debated by Indian Parliamentarians. Politicians like Nehru, from long before Indian Independence were vocal against fixed class recruitment in British Indian Army and were adamant to discontinue the traditional colonial policy of zone specific recruitment.Because they thought composition of Indian Army after Independence should reflect the diversity of its national life. But Military commanders have opposed these ideas purely based on technical factors which are difficult for politicians (who rely on vote-bank politics to win in their constituencies) to fathom, consciously or unconsciously.

So you see @Joe Shearer that my POV deserves some of the same understanding if not respect as Mr. Nehru etc wanted open recruitment instead of class etc. One can differ with it without throwing personal insults as were mentioned in my respect. I have received warning for replying to insults from mods so I won't go down that road again, even if flame baited but there should always be mutual respect. Being senior or pro does not mean a license to insult or ridicule.

The merit of Army recruitment policy is a pure military one (which was vehemently guarded by Sandhurst educated commanders), not any caste or regional prejudice. I hope this helps.

The difference in pov is evident. To the outsider looking in, there is inherent and widespread caste system observed by the masses in Indian society as it has its roots in Hinduism, apart from the liberal section of the society of course.

The fact that class overlaps with the caste in places quite conveniently (and loosely) is a master stroke of genius by the Sandhurst educated Commanders who have catered to the need to segregate while accommodating all groups at the same time. There are always exceptions but they are not considered the norm.

No no no sir, I'm not saying that there is any prejudice or mal intent on the part of Sandhurst educated Commanders but a matter of convenience.

The example of other nations don't fit in this scenario simply because, India is where Hindu Caste System is widely observed and no where else in the whole world.

So my focus on the societies practice of observing caste system is not off the mark. Indian Army is after all, part and parcel of the same. We can't expect them to switch on and off from home to duty or vise versa. The fact that caste system is practiced as it is simply a part of Hinduism, is also supported by the fact that we see the extremist Hindu Nationalist BJP in power i.e. elected by the vast majority of Indians.

Thank you very much.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Thank you for the reply. My pov is slightly different as I allude to the widely observed caste system in the Indian society and its reflection in the Army that observes class based segregation in its regiments.

First mistake: caste is a rapidly diminishing factor, although even at this rate of dissipation, it is a hideous misfit in a twenty-first century society.
Second mistake: It is not reflected in the Army. It has been pointed out to you several times that the Army recruits not by caste but by region.
Third mistake: The Army does not observe class based segregation in its regiments. Class is based on wealth. Caste is based on birth. We are faced by a hilarious assertion that the Army recruits among members of a certain wealth category. Since they are chosen in open recruiting sessions, how absurd this is can be readily gauged.

So you see @Joe Shearer that my POV deserves some of the same understanding if not respect as Mr. Nehru etc wanted open recruitment instead of class etc.

Mr. Nehru deserves our admiration and respect for a thousand and one things. An insight into things military is not one of them. Quite the contrary; he made a hash of managing the military, and the worst of the hash-making occurred successively in his appointment of the very brainy but very non-military Krishna Menon as his Defence Minister, his backing of a completely unfit staff officer for higher and higher rank and his gullibility with regard to the farcical insights into Chinese intentions fed to him by Bhola Mallik, the all-powerful Director of the Intelligence Branch in his times. Assuming that one's ideas are right because Nehru said something similar is a disastrous misreading of the man and his times.

One can differ with it without throwing personal insults as were mentioned in my respect. I have received warning for replying to insults from mods so I won't go down that road again, even if flame baited but there should always be mutual respect. Being senior or pro does not mean a license to insult or ridicule.

Your knowledge and your willingness to learn were in doubt, not your personal integrity. Unfortunately, this note does nothing to relieve one's mind of one's fears.

The difference in pov is evident. To the outsider looking in, there is inherent and widespread caste system observed by the masses in Indian society as it has its roots in Hinduism, apart from the liberal section of the society of course.

The contradiction in your point of view is that the officer class actually formed part of the liberal section of society. So where does that leave your elaborate structure?

The fact that class overlaps with the caste in places quite conveniently (and loosely) is a master stroke of genius by the Sandhurst educated Commanders who have catered to the need to segregate while accommodating all groups at the same time. There are always exceptions but they are not considered the norm.

Only regions are grouped together, not class, a Marxist paradigm that has no application here, not caste, a British application of rigid methodology to a fluid and shifting system in the real world. There is no question of class overlapping with caste; I would be glad to learn of a single example.

The problem in dealing with your posts is that you are unable to give us a single example of what is airily assumed to be the case. The conflating of class and caste is itself peculiar; further, education at Sandhurst governed the actions of only the first few generations of officers. The IMA took over very soon after independence.

No no no sir, I'm not saying that there is any prejudice or mal intent on the part of Sandhurst educated Commanders but a matter of convenience.

What convenience?

The example of other nations don't fit in this scenario simply because, India is where Hindu Caste System is widely observed and no where else in the whole world.

How does this account for the very large proportion of Sikhs in the armed forces? A gursikh actually destroys his caste pretensions by drinking amrit in common with other initiates, so that all lose caste in formal terms.

So my focus on the societies practice of observing caste system is not off the mark. Indian Army is after all, part and parcel of the same. We can't expect them to switch on and off from home to duty or vise versa.

Nobody at home is a trained soldier. The Indian Army, officers and men, are carefully trained to inculcate the specific values of the Army; they are not encouraged to retain their value systems brought from their home environment where these clash with the demands of the Army. The caste system and religious segregation are among the specific targets of the homogenisation that the Army seeks to introduce into its soldiers.

The fact that caste system is practiced as it is simply a part of Hinduism, is also supported by the fact that we see the extremist Hindu Nationalist BJP in power i.e. elected by the vast majority of Indians.

Since when did 41% become the vast majority of a population?

Thank you very much.

You are welcome, I'm sure.

 

[Shane]

First mistake: caste is a rapidly diminishing factor, although even at this rate of dissipation, it is a hideous misfit in a twenty-first century society.
Second mistake: It is not reflected in the Army. It has been pointed out to you several times that the Army recruits not by caste but by region.
Third mistake: The Army does not observe class based segregation in its regiments. Class is based on wealth. Caste is based on birth. We are faced by a hilarious assertion that the Army recruits among members of a certain wealth category. Since they are chosen in open recruiting sessions, how absurd this is can be readily gauged.



Mr. Nehru deserves our admiration and respect for a thousand and one things. An insight into things military is not one of them. Quite the contrary; he made a hash of managing the military, and the worst of the hash-making occurred successively in his appointment of the very brainy but very non-military Krishna Menon as his Defence Minister, his backing of a completely unfit staff officer for higher and higher rank and his gullibility with regard to the farcical insights into Chinese intentions fed to him by Bhola Mallik, the all-powerful Director of the Intelligence Branch in his times. Assuming that one's ideas are right because Nehru said something similar is a disastrous misreading of the man and his times.



Your knowledge and your willingness to learn were in doubt, not your personal integrity. Unfortunately, this note does nothing to relieve one's mind of one's fears.



The contradiction in your point of view is that the officer class actually formed part of the liberal section of society. So where does that leave your elaborate structure?



Only regions are grouped together, not class, a Marxist paradigm that has no application here, not caste, a British application of rigid methodology to a fluid and shifting system in the real world. There is no question of class overlapping with caste; I would be glad to learn of a single example.

The problem in dealing with your posts is that you are unable to give us a single example of what is airily assumed to be the case. The conflating of class and caste is itself peculiar; further, education at Sandhurst governed the actions of only the first few generations of officers. The IMA took over very soon after independence.



What convenience?



How does this account for the very large proportion of Sikhs in the armed forces? A gursikh actually destroys his caste pretensions by drinking amrit in common with other initiates, so that all lose caste in formal terms.



Nobody at home is a trained soldier. The Indian Army, officers and men, are carefully trained to inculcate the specific values of the Army; they are not encouraged to retain their value systems brought from their home environment where these clash with the demands of the Army. The caste system and religious segregation are among the specific targets of the homogenisation that the Army seeks to introduce into its soldiers.



Since when did 41% become the vast majority of a population?



You are welcome, I'm sure.

Dear and respected Sir,
Thank you for your reply and your welcome.

You don't know it yet but your kind reply has put a smile on my face.

I'm busy for a while but do wait for my darling of a reply to you. I might be busy for a day or two. Meanwhile, do read my post again and make appropriate changes in your reply... or not.

I hope that you don't report my post as it has nothing objectionable.

Thank you again.

Since when did 41% become the vast majority of a population?

Sorry couldn't help myself with just one quick one...

YOU ARE BEING RULED BY THEM, LOL!

Rest later, I promise...

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dear and respected Sir,
Thank you for your reply and your welcome.

You don't know it yet but your kind reply has put a smile on my face.

I'm busy for a while but do wait for my darling of a reply to you. I might be busy for a day or two. Meanwhile, do read my post again and make appropriate changes in your reply... or not.

I hope that you don't report my post as it has nothing objectionable.

Thank you again.

Noted. As for being reported, since I did nothing of the sort earlier, it is unlikely that I shall do so now.

Sorry couldn't help myself with just one quick one...

YOU ARE BEING RULED BY THEM, LOL!

Rest later, I promise...

Oh yes, we are. 59% are being ruled by those elected by 41%. It happens often, in a working democracy of our sort. They who form the government now felt as uncomfortable as we do now during their years of being ruled by those whom they opposed.

 

[Shane]

I'm back, Hi there!

Let me start by saying that after the pleasantries I received for what was a fair enough POV, I was not interested in engaging in any further argument with yourself but since you, in your earnest comprehension, thought that instead of limiting yourself with just the paragraph in which I mentioned your good name, you went on to comment on the rest of my conversation with @scorpionx. In doing so you have repeated some critical mistakes that I aim to highlight and end my argument with you from my side.

You are welcome to reply without further response from me. I will however, continue to post on the subject according to my POV which happens to be synonymous with the cries of the oppressed and those who believe in Human rights and only one kind of human instead of the harrowing Caste System observed by the ruling extremist Hindus and even their seemingly “liberal” sympathizers across India, including those in its armed forces.

Now some claims:

I have gathered enough information to prove that selection is done on the basis of class in elite regiments of Indian Army with information available on the internet and that caste is always an underlying factor.

The source of one such information that declaring caste is a requirement in recruitment is the Indian Army itself.
There is also a report about an Indian Army’s affidavit submitted in Supreme court that states that it does not recruit on the basis of region (totally opposite to your claim as The Criteria), or caste or sex or any other discrimination other than open merit.

However, (LOL) The affidavit states that Certain regiments of the Army are organized on the lines of classification because social, cultural and linguistic homogeneity has been observed to be a force multiplier as a battle winning factor…

I have tried to be as brief as possible but still in order to provide proof, my post is a bit lengthy.
Links of sources are at the bottom.

First mistake: caste is a rapidly diminishing factor, although even at this rate of dissipation, it is a hideous misfit in a twenty-first century society.

Caste Discrimination, rapidly diminishing factor? On the contrary, extremist Hindu growing in strength is evident by their electoral strength, Gao Rakshak killings and similar extremist crimes.

I still thank you for agreeing with me that its hideous. No dispute here.
We have in plain sight, a historic link between caste system and Hindu religion and a traditional link between caste system and Indian Army composition that still lingers on in one way or the other.

You can gladly call it my mistake if it pleases you. You can take all the credit for opposing caste or any other discrimination / selection/ segregation / and classification along those lines in a (your own words) "hideous misfit in a twenty-first century society", -end quote-, leave alone an organized Army.

Whether it is my mistake or not, the reader can make his/ her own conclusion.

Second mistake: It is not reflected in the Army. It has been pointed out to you several times that the Army recruits not by caste but by region.

Your Claim that Indian society's caste discrimination as having no reflection on its Army, OK hold that thought for a while while I dissect the second part of your mistake about the criteria of recruitment being just the REGION. While the Army even rejects the region and claims open merit for all Indians:

Let me explain in detail how Indian Army claims and your own claims are contradictory and how Indian Army is practicing Caste based selection/ organization after all.

The above reported affidavit of Indian Army has some interesting points:

1) INDIAN ARMY CLAIMS RECRUITMENT IS ON OPEN MERIT.
2) DOGRA, GARWAL, MADRAS REGIMENTS ARE DEFINED BY REGION BUT NOT THE WHOLE ARMY.
3) CERTAIN REGIMENTS OF THE ARMY ARE ORGANISED ON THE LINES OF CLASSIFICATION BECAUSE SOCIAL, CULTURAL AND LINGUISTIC HOMOGENEITY HAS BEEN OBSERVED TO BE A FORCE MULTIPLIER AS A BATTLE WINNING FACTOR.

THE INDIAN ARMY REJECTS YOUR CLAIM THAT REGION IS THE ONLY BASIS OF RECRUITEMENT!!!

As you mentioned that you were in doubt of my knowledge and willingness to learn, does this not show your lack of knowledge and lack of ability to learn while you are surely a respected professional. I’m not saying that your personal integrity is in doubt at all here but there is something seriously wrong as the whole basis of your arguments since the start of this thread is already buried without honor by none other than the Indian Army itself.

While your claim is rejected, what I have been saying is accepted by Indian Army affidavit itself. Sheesh, and to think that my post count is a paltry 570 plus.

I say this because QUOTE: “Classification along SOCIAL, CULTURAL, LINGUISTIC homogeneity” based organization is accepted by indian army as a norm in certain regiments. Army claims organization is not Caste based, I’m saying it is after all, really something close to it, caste is a factor after all, How? read on...

Third mistake: The Army does not observe class based segregation in its regiments. Class is based on wealth. Caste is based on birth. We are faced by a hilarious assertion that the Army recruits among members of a certain wealth category. Since they are chosen in open recruiting sessions, how absurd this is can be readily gauged.

Class here is not as you mentioned as a hilarious mistake of mine as just having wealth. Do check information easily available on the internet about Indian Army Regimental structure along class lines. Another example is that Jats were classified as Other Backward Class (OBC) in seven of India's thirty-six States. Its not me who is confused about class or caste. JAT is considered a class that has people of lower and mid castes. (Traditionally peasants, agriculture and subsequently landowners etc.)

Definition of Class : Class is social mobility based as in Social mobility between classes is possible through education and certain opportunities.

Definition of Caste: Each of the hereditary classes of Hindu society, distinguished by relative degrees of ritual purity or pollution and of social status.
Synonyms: class, social class, order, social order, social division, grade, grading, group, grouping, station, stratum, echelon, rank, level, degree, set.

Class vs Caste in present day India:

Modern India does not like to state Caste as consideration and encourages Class in its place to conform with the modern times and civilized nations who recognize class mobility but it cannot disconnect the historic link between Hinduism and its caste based system being observed by society at large.

So lets be clear that class (not being hereditary) is the new classification basis of modern India to get rid of the stigma of hideous Caste system which has its roots in Vedic Hinduism and subsequent legacy of Mughal and british Raj who used it to their advantage. The reason for it continued existence is because of the widespread practice of it due to the fact that it is part of the Hindu Religion and observed by a vast majority of Hindus and Indian society.

Only regions are grouped together, not class, a Marxist paradigm that has no application here, not caste, a British application of rigid methodology to a fluid and shifting system in the real world. There is no question of class overlapping with caste; I would be glad to learn of a single example.

The problem in dealing with your posts is that you are unable to give us a single example of what is airily assumed to be the case. The conflating of class and caste is itself peculiar; further, education at Sandhurst governed the actions of only the first few generations of officers. The IMA took over very soon after independence.

I hope that what I have wrote in plain English about Caste and Class has removed any doubt that who was confused (Wealth? Conflating of Class and Caste) and who was not.

Keeping in mind my kudos to (as described by poster @scorpionx about) Sandhurst educated Commanders, for a master stroke of genius where Class ( and Clan Classifications ) conveniently overlaps Caste, IT IS MY POV THAT IT DOES OVERLAP.
Case in point: Rajput Regiment, the Regiment has 50% Rajput and 50% Gurjar irrespective of ranks, essentially a Rajput forward caste Regiment, and I quote information about regiments easily available on the internet and you can, reject it as only partial as in Rajput Regiment - British era legacy -, if you find yourself compelled to admit it, still lingers on.

By the way, again, you probably didn’t read that it was not me who mentioned Sandhurst educated commanders in the first place but @scorpionx, I had only replied to him about it in appreciation. That’s the problem with excessive criticism, it gets out of hand.

Lets move forward.

What convenience?

That class overlaps with caste is a convenience to smoothly run some regiments that are classified along those lines.

To add to the above and bearing in mind that Indian Army Regiments have maintained their traditional clan classification/ caste names, war cries and distinct attire, supports the factor of historic and traditional Caste based segregation as being a factor in some of the Army Regiments and Classification of their subset Battalions. Some examples are:

(Note:Following is just a brief related to subject matter only. For full information refer to websites: defenceindia.com, Wikipedia, Globalsecurity about current Indian Army Regiments)

• Rajputana Rifles

War Cry:​

Veer Bhogya Vasundhara (वीर भोग्य वसुंधरा )​

"The Brave Shall Inherit the Earth"
Raja Ramchandra Ki Jai "Hail Lord Raja Ramachandra"
​

The name Rajputana Rifles is derived from the Rajput a historic Hindu clan and the word Rajputana which was the old name of Rajasthan. It is based on the Sanskrit word Rajaputra meaning son of a king. Rajputana (räj'pʊtä'nə) is a historic region in NW India, roughly coextensive with the modern Indian state of Rajasthan. The name means "land of the Rajputs."

Nearly, 80% of the Rajputana Rifles Regiment strength is of Rajputs and Jats . Other's recruited are Ahir, Sikh, Gurjar and Muslims.

Rajputs :

Rajput (from Sanskrit raja-putra, "son of a king"[6]) is a member of the patrilineal clans of the Indian subcontinent.

Classification: Forward caste

Religions: Hinduism, Islam[1][2][3] and Sikhism (reference of Hindustani Muslim later)

Languages: Hindi, Punjabi, Bhojpuri,[4] Urdu, Gujarati, Maithili,[5] Marwari

Region: Uttar Pradesh, Punjab, Rajasthan, Gujarat, Himachal Pradesh, Haryana, Jammu and Kashmir, Bihar

The Rajputs of Rajasthan, constituted a warrior aristocracy divided into a number of prominent clans, each of which regarded a princely state as its traditional patrimony, whose ruler was the social head of clan besides being the political ruler. Of these exogamous clans, the major ones were Shekhawat, Rathore, Bhati, Kachchwaha, Chauhan, and Sisodiya.

Although the Rajputs never constituted more than a tenth of the total population, they have commanded the heights of the polity and the society in Rajasthan for nearly a thousand years etc. etc.

Source: Wikipedia and globalsecurity

--End Quote –

Call it which way but such class based grouping as above and even caste being a factor in recruitment is evident with the following Eligibility Criteria for recruitment in Indian Army:

Indian Army official website states Caste Certificate as one of the compulsory documents to be brought along for recruitment with others dully attested documents.

(I’m sure you’ll say it is not just Army but every India Govt job requirement. I’m sure Army just wants to keep its soldiers honest by asking for Caste Certificate, lol )

After the Rajput lets take a quick look at some info on Muslims in Rajputana Rifles:

Who are these traitor Indians who write articles about CASTE being a factor in Regional Selection!
Refer to info about Rajputs given a little earlier in the post to see caste composition.

Indian Army recognizes, differentiates and classifies even Indian Muslims as Hindustani Muslim and Deccani Muslim and certain other castes as mentioned in above blue highlighted text and this forms their basis of religious and regional selection in Rajputana Regiment. Strangely enough, merit is the first criteria, then region and then religion or maybe, it is the other way around, is a boring and dated puzzle but who cares as long as it is done in the name of merit.

All under the carpet stuff, I’m sure, but still the classification of castes is being followed in the Indian Army. Shining Secular India in clash with Religiously divided Hindu India.

• Jat Regiment​

War Cry:
Jat Balwan, Jai Bhagwan (The Jat is powerful, Victory to Bhagwan God!)​

The Jat Regiment is an infantry regiment of the Indian Army. It is one of the longest serving and most decorated regiments of the Indian Army.

Class Composition:

The Jat Regiment's class composition mostly consists of Hindu Jats from Western Uttar Pradesh, Haryana, Rajasthan and Delhi except for 3 Battalions whose ethnic make-up is as follows:

12th Battalion: It recruits from all Indian castes.
15th Battalion: It recruits Ahirs, Jats, Gurjars and Rajputs.
20th Battalion: Recruits Jats, Garhwalis and Marathas.

The JAT:

The Jat is the agriculturist par excellence and the quintessential soldier who dominates the area comprising the Punjab States, Sindh, Haryana, Jammu, Rajasthan, and Western Uttar Pradesh. Whether Hindu, Sikh, or Muslim he constitutes the most important peasantry in both India and Pakistan. The four million Jat of Pakistan are mainly Muslim; the nearly six million Jat of India are mostly divided into two large castes of about equal strength: one Sikh, concentrated in Punjab, the other Hindu. But it is the Hindu Jat of Haryana, Western Uttar Pradesh and Rajasthan who concerns us since it is he who forms the bulk of the composition of the Jat Regiment, renowned for its valour and dour steadfastness in battle. A large number of Jats serve is in the Indian Armed Forces and form one of the largest ethnic groups in the army.

Source: Wikipedia

• Sikh Regiment​

War Cry:
Bole So Nihal, Sat Sri Akal (Victory belong to those; Who recite the name of God with a true Heart)​

The Sikh Regiment is an infantry regiment of the Indian Army that recruits from the Sikh community. It is the most decorated regiment in the Indian Army and was at one stage one of the highest decorated regiments in the British Empire.

Recruitment:

Enlisted soldiers are strictly recruited from the Sikh community from Punjab and the surrounding states. In a departure from the single class composition, a battalion, 13 Sikh was raised with multiple class composition: a company each of Sikhs, Dogras, Garhwalis and South Indians. However these units were reverted to their original class composition later.
Source: Wikipedia Globalsecurity



In short;

If you ever wondered why Elite Indian Army Regiments or a battalion within it has similar ethnicity, it is not because they were selected or classified by merit. It is simply because their Caste were given preference for maintaining the unity among army units.

Remember that it is the claim of Indian Army itself in its affidavit submitted in Indian Supreme Court in September 2013 that states:

“Certain regiments of the Army are organised on the lines of classification because social, cultural and linguistic homogeneity has been observed to be a force multiplier as a battle winning factor,” the affidavit said, adding, “The commonality of language and culture only further augments the smooth execution of operation. Composing or grouping the individuals of common region as the source of recruitment is for administrative convenience and common training/operational requirements,” it said.

This is a breath of fresh air!
Respect.

What should be an actual breath of fresh air for you:

Brigade of the Guards Regiment​

The Brigade of The Guards is a Mechanized Infantry Regiment of the Indian Army. It was raised as the first "all India", "all class" infantry regiment of the Army where troops from all parts of India serve together, as opposed to other regiments that recruit from specific regions, ethnic groups, religions or classes.

Source : List of regiments of the Indian Army

(Why is it that whenever sophisticated or even less, equipment is involved, we begin to see open Merit in Indian Forces? be it the first “All India”, “all class” Mechanized regiment above, or Navy and Air force as a whole)

Nobody at home is a trained soldier. The Indian Army, officers and men, are carefully trained to inculcate the specific values of the Army; they are not encouraged to retain their value systems brought from their home environment where these clash with the demands of the Army. The caste system and religious segregation are among the specific targets of the homogenisation that the Army seeks to introduce into its soldiers.

Enough about Caste, Let me give you a hint; A rape is committed every 21 minutes in India. The documented evidence about atrocities committed in Indian Occupied Kashmir by Indian Army reflects the very fact that what goes on in Indian Society has a darker reflection on its Armed Forces i.e. The use of RAPE as a tool to teach Kashmiris a lesson for asking and struggling for their freedom from a brutal occupation.

May be this is what is taught to Indian Army Officers during their training OR is it a reflection of the Indian society on its Army?
(Human rights groups state in 2014 that 150 top officers, of the rank of major or above, have participated in torture as well as sexual violence in Indian Occupied Kashmir and that the Indian government was covering up such acts.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-kashmir-accused-human-rights-abuses-coverup )


Conclusion:

I have another document that clarifies the latest policy of Indian Army recruitment obtained through a proxy from official Indian Army website but that needs to be studied yet... for another day perhaps.

I am limiting my post to what I have written and quoted so far. It is the best I could do in the time I had, therefore, there may be mistakes in certain statements so feel free to have a ball with the same but I have made my pov clear overall.

For a force like Indian Army that claims to practice no Caste Discrimination in a society that openly practices it, the mere fact that it requires A COMPULSORY CASTE CERTIFICATE is enough to assess the level of merit and nature of selection criteria.

The usual excuses that come with such disclosures are lame, considering their inherent nature; excuse.

There shall be continued effort to expose the dual face of Indian Army and its discriminating practices, violations of human rights and atrocities against the people of the region.

@Joe Shearer Sir, please stay away from any sharp objects for a while.
@saiyan0321 thank you for siding with joe
@Jungibaaz Thank you for deleting my posts but still hearing me out without a ban @war&peace @El Sidd @Areesh @ghazi52 @snow lake Thank you for your posts.
@Windjammer I think that some of the Indian posters at PDF need leashing and lashing.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I'm back, Hi there!

Let me start by saying that after the pleasantries I received for what was a fair enough POV, I was not interested in engaging in any further argument with yourself but since you, in your earnest comprehension, thought that instead of limiting yourself with just the paragraph in which I mentioned your good name, you went on to comment on the rest of my conversation with @scorpionx.

It is difficult to discuss anything with a person who defines for himself, without any reference to what others might think, about what constitutes a 'fair enough POV'. It was hardly fair; it was certainly a point of view.

If you are not interested in engaging in any further argument with myself, all you need to do is to stop tagging me with your comments. I cannot be bothered to cherry pick your posts to sift out what is specifically addressed to me, and what is addressed to another; in an open forum, you are liable to correction from any source, not just the one you sought to address.

In doing so you have repeated some critical mistakes that I aim to highlight and end my argument with you from my side.

You seem to have a most liberal allowance for your own statements, which, so far, earlier than this note, have been fact-free. Let us see what delights you have served up in this note. Further, your vast allowances for your arguments are matched by an almost hysterical refusal to absorb anything that might be said in contradiction of your arguments. Such as they are.

You are welcome to reply without further response from me. I will however, continue to post on the subject according to my POV which happens to be synonymous with the cries of the oppressed and those who believe in Human rights and only one kind of human instead of the harrowing Caste System observed by the ruling extremist Hindus and even their seemingly “liberal” sympathizers across India, including those in its armed forces.

Your crusade is your own. No doubt you have some powerful motives for this, starting as it did on a point that has long since been torn to shreds and discarded.

Now some claims:

I have gathered enough information to prove that selection is done on the basis of class in elite regiments of Indian Army with information available on the internet and that caste is always an underlying factor.

Fascinating. Do go on.

The source of one such information that declaring caste is a requirement in recruitment is the Indian Army itself.
There is also a report about an Indian Army’s affidavit submitted in Supreme court that states that it does not recruit on the basis of region (totally opposite to your claim as The Criteria), or caste or sex or any other discrimination other than open merit.

This gets better and better. I used a weak segregation of the criteria for recruitment, and you have broadened and strengthened it, and you claim that to be an argument in your favour. My simple statement was that caste is not a criterion, religion is not a criterion, but region is. You have cited an affidavit where merit is shown to be the criterion, and you seem to think that in some way it strengthens your case.

However, (LOL) The affidavit states that Certain regiments of the Army are organized on the lines of classification because social, cultural and linguistic homogeneity has been observed to be a force multiplier as a battle winning factor…

Social, cultural and linguistic homogeneity are still not caste.

I have tried to be as brief as possible but still in order to provide proof, my post is a bit lengthy.
Links of sources are at the bottom.

In the interests of readers in general, it might be wished that you had tried harder.

Caste Discrimination, rapidly diminishing factor? On the contrary, extremist Hindu growing in strength is evident by their electoral strength, Gao Rakshak killings and similar extremist crimes.

How intelligent. The results of one election, and the effort by the electoral winners to expand their constituency, using illegal and unconstitutional methods, is now transferred to the Indian Army, in spite of the evidence that the Indian Army deliberately addresses beliefs and value systems and points of view from open society that are considered to be against the ethos of the Army.

The fundamental problem with your point of view remains the same, thoughtless one: that whatever exists in general is carried into an elite organisation with no changes. You can see for yourself by reference to other elite organisations that there is a deliberate distancing of the members of these organisations from the views and values prevalent in general society.

I still thank you for agreeing with me that its hideous. No dispute here.

We have in plain sight, a historic link between caste system and Hindu religion and a traditional link between caste system and Indian Army composition that still lingers on in one way or the other.

And here we go again: assertion after assertion, unfounded on any provable fact, other than your inner conviction that India and Indian society are beyond redemption. Your faith in yourself is commendable; the absence of any concrete evidence is remarkable.

You can gladly call it my mistake if it pleases you. You can take all the credit for opposing caste or any other discrimination / selection/ segregation / and classification along those lines in a (your own words) "hideous misfit in a twenty-first century society", -end quote-, leave alone an organized Army.

Whether it is my mistake or not, the reader can make his/ her own conclusion.

When somebody takes another person's quoted words, and slips on a tag springing from his own fevered imagination, indeed, the reader can come to his own conclusions; to concede a point, 'make' his/her own conclusion.

A degree of mental confusion as extreme as this is difficult to see in daily life.

Your Claim that Indian society's caste discrimination as having no reflection on its Army, OK hold that thought for a while while I dissect the second part of your mistake about the criteria of recruitment being just the REGION. While the Army even rejects the region and claims open merit for all Indians:

Fascinating.

My claim that Indian society's diminishing caste discrimination has no reflection in the Army, and that at best region considerations might be a selection criteria are now undermined, in your thinking, because the Army takes the argument one step further away from caste, and argues that, forget about caste, even region is not a criterion. So in your thinking, because the Army has moved away from caste one step further than I had projected, my projection is invalidated, and the Army is actually thereby closer to caste-based recruitment and internal behaviour.

This is hilarious.

View attachment 424465

Let me explain in detail how Indian Army claims and your own claims are contradictory and how Indian Army is practicing Caste based selection/ organization after all.

This will be a treat, indeed.

The above reported affidavit of Indian Army has some interesting points:

1) INDIAN ARMY CLAIMS RECRUITMENT IS ON OPEN MERIT.
2) DOGRA, GARWAL, MADRAS REGIMENTS ARE DEFINED BY REGION BUT NOT THE WHOLE ARMY.

Is it your case that the Indian Army recruits Malayalees into the Assam and Gurkha Regiments, for instance, or into the Naga Regiment? Is there any reason why you have taken illustrative examples and converted them into laws?

3) CERTAIN REGIMENTS OF THE ARMY ARE ORGANISED ON THE LINES OF CLASSIFICATION BECAUSE SOCIAL, CULTURAL AND LINGUISTIC HOMOGENEITY HAS BEEN OBSERVED TO BE A FORCE MULTIPLIER AS A BATTLE WINNING FACTOR.

The point being?

THE INDIAN ARMY REJECTS YOUR CLAIM THAT REGION IS THE ONLY BASIS OF RECRUITEMENT!!!

As you unfortunately failed to notice, the Indian Army did not reject my claim and move back towards caste; it rejected my claim to make an even stronger claim, that moves it further away from caste.

If you were not so obsessed with proving an unprovable case, you might have noticed the fallacy that this reveals your arguments to be.

As you mentioned that you were in doubt of my knowledge and willingness to learn, does this not show your lack of knowledge and lack of ability to learn while you are surely a respected professional. I’m not saying that your personal integrity is in doubt at all here but there is something seriously wrong as the whole basis of your arguments since the start of this thread is already buried without honor by none other than the Indian Army itself.

This example alone perfectly vindicates my scepticism; you are unable, according to the evidence in front of us all, to comprehend that the Army has defined a position further away from caste discrimination than mine was.

While your claim is rejected, what I have been saying is accepted by Indian Army affidavit itself. Sheesh, and to think that my post count is a paltry 570 plus.

In view of what we have just seen demonstrated, we must count ourselves very, very fortunate.

I say this because QUOTE: “Classification along SOCIAL, CULTURAL, LINGUISTIC homogeneity” based organization is accepted by indian army as a norm in certain regiments. Army claims organization is not Caste based, I’m saying it is after all, really something close to it, caste is a factor after all, How? read on...

In what direction are we going at present (other than rotating in circular motion?)? Are we to assume from these preliminary remarks that, having failed to find any reference to caste, we are now being told that '...SOCIAL, CULTURAL, LINGUISTIC homogeneity is the same thing? That while the Army claims that its organisation is NOT caste based, you are claiming it is, after all, really something close to it, that caste is therefore (no link to the surmise to that something close to it) a factor after all?

You seldom fail to fascinate, dear Sir. But on the other hand, you always succeed in amusing. Please proceed.

Class here is not as you mentioned as a hilarious mistake of mine as just having wealth. Do check information easily available on the internet about Indian Army Regimental structure along class lines.

Ah, so here is the smoking gun. It is no longer the arguments in the affidavit; we are now embarked on a fishing expedition.

Another example is that Jats were classified as Other Backward Class (OBC) in seven of India's thirty-six States. Its not me who is confused about class or caste. JAT is considered a class that has people of lower and mid castes. (Traditionally peasants, agriculture and subsequently landowners etc.)

Said by an ethnographer of high standing who fails to notice that unpleasant rock in his path, of Hindu Jats, Sikh Jats and Muslim Jats. So much for Jat as a caste criterion.

Let us move on to the sociology lesson by the good professor.

Definition of Class

: Class is social mobility based as in Social mobility between classes is possible through education and certain opportunities.

Definition of Caste: Each of the hereditary classes of Hindu society, distinguished by relative degrees of ritual purity or pollution and of social status.
Synonyms: class, social class, order, social order, social division, grade, grading, group, grouping, station, stratum, echelon, rank, level, degree, set.

Class is a socio-economic determinant; it is not by itself social mobility; it merely allows social mobility, by being capable of being transmuted from one class to another. So the good professor might move from low class to the uppermost class due to acquisition of vast sums of money; this humble seeker after knowledge might move from middle class to lower class, due to not being in possession of money. Very simply, my class is my position at the beginning and at the end, at the beginning, middle class, at the end, lower class. The shift, the social mobility, is not class, it is allowed by class being a changeable definition.

Caste is fixed. It cannot be altered.

The two categories are fundamentally different, Professor.

Class vs Caste in present day India:

Modern India does not like to state Caste as consideration and encourages Class in its place to conform with the modern times and civilized nations who recognize class mobility but it cannot disconnect the historic link between Hinduism and its caste based system being observed by society at large.

We have just seen that the two are contradictory.

So lets be clear that caste which has its roots in Vedic Hinduism and subsequent legacy of Mughal and british Raj who used it to their advantage. The reason for it continued existence is because of the widespread practice of it due to the fact that it is part of the Hindu Religion and observed by a vast majority of Hindus and Indian society.

Whew!

Nearly thought we wouldn't make it. We finally did.

Here we are, then:

"...class (not being hereditary) is the new classification basis of modern India to get rid of the stigma of hideous Caste system..."

Not the same.

But is that the last word? One never knows. Let us trace the argument further, warily, but firmly.

I hope that what I have wrote in plain English about Caste and Class has removed any doubt that who was confused (Wealth? Conflating of Class and Caste) and who was not.

Oh, absolutely!

What you have written in plain English about Caste and Class has removed any doubt that who was confused (sic) (Wealth? Conflating of Class and Caste) and who was not.

Coming at last to a rudimentary understanding of the difference does not absolve us of the original mistake made. That mistake remains firmly in place, unchallenged.

Keeping in mind my kudos to (as described by poster @scorpionx about) Sandhurst educated Commanders, for a master stroke of genius where Class ( and Clan Classifications ) conveniently overlaps Caste, IT IS MY POV THAT IT DOES OVERLAP.

Aha! The tiger strikes!!

We read earlier ""...class (not being hereditary) is the new classification basis of modern India to get rid of the stigma of hideous Caste system..." BUT, hold on, just a mo, there:

IT IS MY POV THAT IT DOES OVERLAP.

LOL.

Wild and continuing applause!

Class and Caste are overlaps not flat contradictions of each other. Our professor does not fail to impress.[/quote]

Case in point

: Rajput Regiment, the Regiment has 50% Rajput and 50% Gurjar irrespective of ranks, essentially a Rajput forward caste Regiment, and I quote information about regiments easily available on the internet and you can, reject it as only partial as in Rajput Regiment - British era legacy -, if you find yourself compelled to admit it, still lingers on.

So 50% Rajput and 50% Gurjar is (I quote) "....essentially a Rajput forward caste regiment. Perhaps in line with caste considerations, ONE Rajput counts for THREE, even FOUR Gurjars.

The point is not clear; all we get is incoherent noise about regiments easily available on the Internet, Rajput Regiment, British era legacy, and so on.

We miss the obvious fact that the Rajput Regiment recruits from Rajasthan (errm, last time we checked, that was a region, not a caste), that it does not recruit those by caste, that its composition does not even match its regimental name.

By the way, again, you probably didn’t read that it was not me who mentioned Sandhurst educated commanders in the first place but @scorpionx, I had only replied to him about it in appreciation. That’s the problem with excessive criticism, it gets out of hand.

Lets move forward.

Whether Sandhurst or not does not matter, the question is about the caste discrimination in Indian Army regiments.

That class overlaps with caste is a convenience to smoothly run some regiments that are classified along those lines.

That these two are contradictory has been carefully but simply spelt out earlier. NOBODY recruits into the IA based on income tax returns. So what class are we talking about? Oh, wait, it was the Indian Army affidavit, AND it must be correct. Oh, wait, they said they had nothing to do with caste, so it must be wrong. Oh, wait, they can't be right and wrong at the same time.

Oh, damn.....

Poor professor.

TO BE CONTINUED.

 

[Shane]

I see that lame attempts at some semblance of an answer are continuing, still without a shred of logic or proof to the contrary except twisting words but only managing in getting twisted by the same. No wonder, the highly proclaimed intellectual level of some ones post has nose dived even more for obvious reasons.

May be dancing in a skirt would distract the readers more than written words, someone should give it a try.
I'd be glad to join in.

Sadly, Caste Certificate Compulsion by Indian Army leaves its defenders without even a shred of dignified exit from an obvious writing on the wall.

Shame shame shame, surely not all the same?

IT WAS EVEN CLAIMED IN A SIMILAR TWIST THAT CASTE DISCRIMINATING IS DECLINING IN INDIA!

Caste Discrimination is not diminishing but rather growing in India thanks to the political rise of Hindu extremists and growing resentment and backlash of those considered "conveniently" as lower Caste people.

http://idsn.org/caste-violence-in-india-rises-as-dalits-assert-their-rights/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahom...ge-India-torn-apart-caste-based-violence.html

As I posted earlier, Indian Army's record of Rape in Indian Occupied Kashmir is just as shocking as the rapes going on in Indian society, the reported one's, actual numbers are believed to be even higher.

Is this a reflection of what's going on in the society on Indian Army or is use of Rape as a weapon overlooked if not indoctrinated during training?

I think the answer is clearly in the negative, it must be a spill over of social trends, therefore, it is fair to draw a parallel between caste discrimination in society and its obvious reflection with in Indian Army.

Otherwise, the reader shall be forced to accept an equally hideous notion that rape and its use as a weapon is part of training after all. I repeat that I don't believe that it is any part of training "at the academies". What officers and soldiers do in the field sometimes is, far from anything defensible, quote: "behave like beasts"(not my words).

Foreign Human rights activists as well as Indian, have repeatedly reported on atrocities committed by Indian Occupation Forces in Kashmir and has identified that Indian Army Officers as well as soldiers are involved in Gang Rapes and use sexual assault as a weapon to suppress the freedom struggle.

Source: Thomson Reuters Foundation.
--Quote--
"Human Rights Law Network, a collective of lawyers and social activists dedicated to the use of the legal system to advance human rights in India and the subcontinent, and Act Now for Harmony and Democracy, an Indian socio-cultural organization, heard the testimonies of various human rights violations in Kashmir in 2010. Their report deemed the incident in Kunan Poshpora "the worst of the human rights violations."

The army assembled the men at several locations in the town and then entered homes. "There were too many of them," says Saleema, a middle-aged woman whose last name was withheld to protect her safety. "Our lawn was filled with the army. They broke lamps, drank alcohol." She says she tried to flee but turned back to rescue one of her children. "I tried to flee, but one of my children was left in the house," she says. "I came back [to] get him, and they caught me. I tried to flee again but couldn't." She says the soldiers terrorized her and the other women in their homes for nearly 12 hours. "We were violated," she says. "The army entered our houses at 10 in the evening and left at 9 in the morning. First, they took out the men, and only God knows what they did to us then." She says that no one in the village was spared. "There were screams everywhere - from almost every house in the village," she says.

The men of Kunan Poshpora say that the soldiers took them out of their homes to different places in the village. They say that they beat and tortured them throughout the night.

Abel Dar, an elderly resident, pulls up his shirt sleeve to show the scars on his arm from the night. "All men were taken out of their homes, except little boys," he says. "We were all mercilessly beaten. They asked no questions - just beat us all night."

But Dar says that what he found out at his home when he returned the next day. was much worse.

His elderly mother, wife, two sisters-in-law, daughter-in-law, aunts and cousins had all been raped. His mother was in her 80s, and his daughter-in-law was just 18.

His daughter-in-law, a newlywed, was the last of the women in the family to be released. "It was the 11th day of my marriage," says Dar's daughter-in-law who requested anonymity to protect her family. "I was still a bride."

After the rapes were reported the army denied the allegations, but the villagers' protests forced local police to address their complaints.

A top district official at the time, S.M. Yasin, wrote in his report to the government that the armed forces had "behaved like beasts."
--End Quote--

Read the full article at given link below.
Link: http://news.trust.org//item/20120307023000-i7m26/

 

[pothead]

I see that lame attempts at some semblance of an answer are continuing, still without a shred of logic or proof to the contrary except twisting words but only managing in getting twisted by the same. No wonder, the highly proclaimed intellectual level of some ones post has nose dived even more for obvious reasons.

May be dancing in a skirt would distract the readers more than written words, someone should give it a try.
I'd be glad to join in.

Sadly, Caste Certificate Compulsion by Indian Army leaves its defenders without even a shred of dignified exit from an obvious writing on the wall.

Shame shame shame, surely not all the same?

IT WAS EVEN CLAIMED IN A SIMILAR TWIST THAT CASTE DISCRIMINATING IS DECLINING IN INDIA!

Caste Discrimination is not diminishing but rather growing in India thanks to the political rise of Hindu extremists and growing resentment and backlash of those considered "conveniently" as lower Caste people.

View attachment 424572

http://idsn.org/caste-violence-in-india-rises-as-dalits-assert-their-rights/

View attachment 424577
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahom...ge-India-torn-apart-caste-based-violence.html

As I posted earlier, Indian Army's record of Rape in Indian Occupied Kashmir is just as shocking as the rapes going on in Indian society, the reported one's, actual numbers are believed to be even higher.

Is this a reflection of what's going on in the society on Indian Army or is use of Rape as a weapon overlooked if not indoctrinated during training?

I think the answer is clearly in the negative, it must be a spill over of social trends, therefore, it is fair to draw a parallel between caste discrimination in society and its obvious reflection with in Indian Army.

Otherwise, the reader shall be forced to accept an equally hideous notion that rape and its use as a weapon is part of training after all. I repeat that I don't believe that it is any part of training "at the academies". What officers and soldiers do in the field sometimes is, far from anything defensible, quote: "behave like beasts"(not my words).

Foreign Human rights activists as well as Indian, have repeatedly reported on atrocities committed by Indian Occupation Forces in Kashmir and has identified that Indian Army Officers as well as soldiers are involved in Gang Rapes and use sexual assault as a weapon to suppress the freedom struggle.

Source: Thomson Reuters Foundation.
--Quote--
"Human Rights Law Network, a collective of lawyers and social activists dedicated to the use of the legal system to advance human rights in India and the subcontinent, and Act Now for Harmony and Democracy, an Indian socio-cultural organization, heard the testimonies of various human rights violations in Kashmir in 2010. Their report deemed the incident in Kunan Poshpora "the worst of the human rights violations."

The army assembled the men at several locations in the town and then entered homes. "There were too many of them," says Saleema, a middle-aged woman whose last name was withheld to protect her safety. "Our lawn was filled with the army. They broke lamps, drank alcohol." She says she tried to flee but turned back to rescue one of her children. "I tried to flee, but one of my children was left in the house," she says. "I came back [to] get him, and they caught me. I tried to flee again but couldn't." She says the soldiers terrorized her and the other women in their homes for nearly 12 hours. "We were violated," she says. "The army entered our houses at 10 in the evening and left at 9 in the morning. First, they took out the men, and only God knows what they did to us then." She says that no one in the village was spared. "There were screams everywhere - from almost every house in the village," she says.

The men of Kunan Poshpora say that the soldiers took them out of their homes to different places in the village. They say that they beat and tortured them throughout the night.

Abel Dar, an elderly resident, pulls up his shirt sleeve to show the scars on his arm from the night. "All men were taken out of their homes, except little boys," he says. "We were all mercilessly beaten. They asked no questions - just beat us all night."

But Dar says that what he found out at his home when he returned the next day. was much worse.

His elderly mother, wife, two sisters-in-law, daughter-in-law, aunts and cousins had all been raped. His mother was in her 80s, and his daughter-in-law was just 18.

His daughter-in-law, a newlywed, was the last of the women in the family to be released. "It was the 11th day of my marriage," says Dar's daughter-in-law who requested anonymity to protect her family. "I was still a bride."

After the rapes were reported the army denied the allegations, but the villagers' protests forced local police to address their complaints.

A top district official at the time, S.M. Yasin, wrote in his report to the government that the armed forces had "behaved like beasts."
--End Quote--

Read the full article at given link below.
Link: http://news.trust.org//item/20120307023000-i7m26/

Now you are just cherry picking incidents to pander to your narrative.
You think the same can not be done to your country or your forces? Or for that matter for any country or it's armed forces?
An individual crime does not reflect on the nation or that organization. The bullocks your posted is just that...

Like some other members posted, India is slowly moving from caste to class. A lower caste Dalit today is in a position to do much better than a upper Caste Brahmin and the system is in place to nurture the Dalit to do well.

Coming to Indian Military. There are multiple reasons for regiments being how they are.
In Indian Army, once you go into a regiment, that regiment becomes your life. Your religion & caste means nothing. You breath and die for your regiment. Your whole life starts and ends with the well being of your regiment.
A Hindu officer in a muslim regiment will do everything his soldiers do, along with them without a second thought.

For a country that is steeped in a certain type of narrative, this fact is perhaps too hard to understand or even digest.