Indian Army man opens fire, kills 4 in Punjab

[Spectre]

You are making it sound so simple my friend......let me ask you, in the last twenty or thirty years of insurgencies, how many times did the Indian security forces had to face or deal with suicide bombers both in human and vehicle forms... in any one encounter, did the IA ever faced more than say half a dozen attackers, on the contrary, there have been occasions when upto 200 militants would mount an attack from Afghan border and then escape back....and those who attack are not just armed with a bunch of AK-47s....just look back at the Kargil conflict, there were no tanks, APCs or artillery deployed by the other side, yet even after your bofor guns proved futile, you hyad to resort to using the air force....

Naxalites often ambush in numbers going in tripple digits. Both armies are doing a tough job and should be lauded - END of Story

 

[Windjammer]

Naxalites often ambush in numbers going in tripple digits. Both armies are doing a tough job and should be lauded - END of Story

Even the air force can't do much in jungle war fare....Vietnam being a prime example.
Combat duty in any form is challenging and indeed should be acknowledged.

 

[knight11]

You are making it sound so simple my friend......let me ask you, in the last twenty or thirty years of insurgencies, how many times did the Indian security forces had to face or deal with suicide bombers both in human and vehicle forms... in any one encounter, did the IA ever faced more than say half a dozen attackers, on the contrary, there have been occasions when upto 200 militants would mount an attack from Afghan border and then escape back....and those who attack are not just armed with a bunch of AK-47s....just look back at the Kargil conflict, there were no tanks, APCs or artillery deployed by the other side, yet even after your bofor guns proved futile, you hyad to resort to using the air force....

Well about your first part i.e Suicide bomber several times. The local dress of kashmiri with FAREN helps the terrorists to hide AK-47 easily. Infact the suicide attack was carried out by Jaish-e-mohamad, Laskar-e-tobba pro pakistani outfits, and haven't seen JKLF doing that. There was one more outfits named Hizbul-mujahedeen. JKLF wants freedom, but there was several outfits which were Propakistani.

Your second part if I remember was during Chera-e-Shariff and Hazzratbal mosque crisis. The first part was carried out by the terrorists about 200 in nos and they captured a small town, in which a famous Dargah of Chera-e-Shariff was there which was the symbol of the kashmiri hindu and muslims unity in Kashmir. The terrorists burned the Dargah and set fire to various houses (Kashmiri houses were wooden mostly with tin roof). Most of the terrorist were killed and several escapes including the commander, taking advantages of Fire Fighting operation carried out to save the locaal resident. The Pakistan and the terrorists then carried out propaganda that it was Indian Army who set fire.

Second incident was during HajratBal Mosque (mosque in which one hair of Prophet Moh is there in a bottle)when few dozen terrorist enters the mosque and IA surrounds the mosque for several days. IA never storms the mosque but carried out slow, negotiation for the terrorists to surrender.

India to had to face lot of problem because there is only one road Jammu-srinagar-leh road which is the heartline of the kashmir, connecting the valley from rest of the country. Another problem was the Pakistani leaders with speaches poisoning the minds of kasmiri youths, and the training camps in Pakistan occupied kashmir and even sending the Afghan fighters in the valley.

Moreover my friend you have to stop cross border weapon and terrorist path using Rangers, and second use of paramilitary forces and local police. It is because Army can never win the war with terrorism, and slowly they start losing the real capability, to fight war, not to fight terrorist. Even if Army killed hundreds of terrorists, the children of dead terrorist pick up the arms. So there is no end to it, my experience says it can only be defeated with tight security in border by Ranger, capable local network of Spy Agencies, and effective Police/paramilitary, with Civil Jurisdiction, so that no sane person would have to be tied on doubtful ground by the Army. I don't know about the conditions there but rules should be same there too.

Ask USA why it uses army UAV's and AC130's along with Apaches in Afghanistan. Plus our tribal areas were anatomus regions since 1947 and had no police.
Moreover try not to compare apples with oranges. Terrorists operated like ISIS or a conventional army in Af-Pak region unlike a bunch of outlaws.
Open another thread instead of raising your concerns about our country here.

I was only asking about the type of terrain, terrorists attack tactics- gurella warfare or Swamp attack in high numbers. local support, and the problem faced by the security forces. And about the air attack because its been carried out in Pakistani soil and not Afghanistan, and the border is sealed i supposed.

 

[desimorty]

You are making it sound so simple my friend......let me ask you, in the last twenty or thirty years of insurgencies, how many times did the Indian security forces had to face or deal with suicide bombers both in human and vehicle forms... in any one encounter, did the IA ever faced more than say half a dozen attackers, on the contrary, there have been occasions when upto 200 militants would mount an attack from Afghan border and then escape back....and those who attack are not just armed with a bunch of AK-47s....just look back at the Kargil conflict, there were no tanks, APCs or artillery deployed by the other side, yet even after your bofor guns proved futile, you hyad to resort to using the air force....

Source: Indian Army man opens fire, kills 4 in Punjab

They delivery methods differ from Taliban to Naxalites LeT but its all the same. The problem is the actual explosives, once you have then delivering isn't difficult given the nature of insurgencies. I don't know why they use suicide, personally I think its a cowards way out. But roadside IEDs, Maoist also have used shoes, garbage cans, lunch canteens etc.. with small explosives which actually cause more physiological threat than what was known. They are clever, the LeT sticks grenade lobbying as getting large quantities of explosives is difficult. There MO is not usually to bomb, if remember correctly, they however have lobbed grenades even at crowds and specifically sufis.
The Indian army is actually very good at counter insurgency. Yes, India makes it look easy, but they payed a heavy price with blood and sweat. 200 militants crossing the border hitting and running back sounds just like the tactics out in NE India bordering Burma, which is nothing but a jungle one could never fence!
Kargil is at completely different altitude! You can not compare Kargil, when the PA and your boys had arty support, this was a war arguably.
Instead of making excuses, check what your doing wrong.
The first thing I noted about Pakistan COIN ops against Taliban was at the confidence in the PA at dealing with this. What did they say 6 months maybe 8? They ended up using aircraft to perform bombins as if Predotor drones haven't done enough. Take in troops, spread them out to find Taliban and create pre meter only to find dead soldiers eating grass because of the lack of support.
No this is not how you deal with a insurgency. Taliban AFAIK in Pushtoon lands are the good guys right? They are the lesser evil for Afghanistan compared to the militia., and you want to defeat them in 6-8 month campaign!...I was shocked,
The PA should have looked into previous campians in NW frontier by Ranjit Singh to realize that its not a 1 year war!

 

[haviZsultan]

Do we know if he was a member of some Khalistani group?

 

[knight11]

Ask USA why it uses army UAV's and AC130's along with Apaches in Afghanistan. Plus our tribal areas were anatomus regions since 1947 and had no police.

Know it very well how that tribal area with weapons ranging from Russians AKs, Rocket launchers, gas masks are sold like vegetables in bazzar. And local people roaming with AK-47 in roads normally. That area is famous not only from 1947 but way long before during Ranjeet Singh of Punjab, and the Britishers. But the question arises why Pakistan didn't tried to bring them under pakistani jurisdictions after 1947. Doesn't Pakistani Govt. nurtured them so that they could fight Pro Soviet govt. in Afghanistan.

 

[haviZsultan]

Nic

Well about your first part i.e Suicide bomber several times. The local dress of kashmiri with FAREN helps the terrorists to hide AK-47 easily. Infact the suicide attack was carried out by Jaish-e-mohamad, Laskar-e-tobba pro pakistani outfits, and haven't seen JKLF doing that. There was one more outfits named Hizbul-mujahedeen. JKLF wants freedom, but there was several outfits which were Propakistani.

Your second part if I remember was during Chera-e-Shariff and Hazzratbal mosque crisis. The first part was carried out by the terrorists about 200 in nos and they captured a small town, in which a famous Dargah of Chera-e-Shariff was there which was the symbol of the kashmiri hindu and muslims unity in Kashmir. The terrorists burned the Dargah and set fire to various houses (Kashmiri houses were wooden mostly with tin roof). Most of the terrorist were killed and several escapes including the commander, taking advantages of Fire Fighting operation carried out to save the locaal resident. The Pakistan and the terrorists then carried out propaganda that it was Indian Army who set fire.

Second incident was during HajratBal Mosque (mosque in which one hair of Prophet Moh is there in a bottle)when few dozen terrorist enters the mosque and IA surrounds the mosque for several days. IA never storms the mosque but carried out slow, negotiation for the terrorists to surrender.

India to had to face lot of problem because there is only one road Jammu-srinagar-leh road which is the heartline of the kashmir, connecting the valley from rest of the country. Another problem was the Pakistani leaders with speaches poisoning the minds of kasmiri youths, and the training camps in Pakistan occupied kashmir and even sending the Afghan fighters in the valley.

Moreover my friend you have to stop cross border weapon and terrorist path using Rangers, and second use of paramilitary forces and local police. It is because Army can never win the war with terrorism, and slowly they start losing the real capability, to fight war, not to fight terrorist. Even if Army killed hundreds of terrorists, the children of dead terrorist pick up the arms. So there is no end to it, my experience says it can only be defeated with tight security in border by Ranger, capable local network of Spy Agencies, and effective Police/paramilitary, with Civil Jurisdiction, so that no sane person would have to be tied on doubtful ground by the Army. I don't know about the conditions there but rules should be same there too.



I was only asking about the type of terrain, terrorists attack tactics- gurella warfare or Swamp attack in high numbers. local support, and the problem faced by the security forces. And about the air attack because its been carried out in Pakistani soil and not Afghanistan, and the border is sealed i supposed.

Nice analysis. I liked reading this and though I do not agree with your assessment some of the stuff was knowledgeable stuff which most Indians do not know. The militant groups mentioned-well I will give you the Pakistani viewpoint.

1) We are fighting terrorists. You don't see the type of action we take against militants being taken against Shiv Sena, RSS and VHP in India.

2) Priorities. We have a duty to protect our land first. Those groups attacking Pakistanis will clearly be first on our target list. This means that we will target groups like LEJ and TTP. Both factions have caused considerable damage to Pakistan and have killed Pakistanis. So before we go after JeM, LeT, Huji and other groups operating in Kashmir we must go after those that pose an existential threat to the country.

I hope you see my point. This fight is difficult for us. I am all in favor of curtailing the activities of JeM, LeT and Huji or Hizb ut tahrir and others. The reason is that Kashmiris do not want to use violent means to achieve independence as these destroy the peace and weaken the liberation movement. But there are movements worse than these we have to take action against first.

Another thing is you might hate to admit it but these militant groups are soft militants. They kill soldiers or at other times policemen usually. They do not target ordinary Hindus. In fact if you check the Huji ideology and material you will see they consider the Hindus and Sikhs of Kashmir as a part and parcel of the valley. Some of their material is even praising sikhs for supporting independence. They do not target civilians en masse.This is at odds with the TTP. Also you might argue the case of Mumbai where LeT was held responsible. I doubt the attack was done by LeT and in its material it has denied responsibility. LeT is bad but not that bad that it will kill civilians like ants.

 

[Assault Rifle]

@haviZsultan
Nope.The incident was a result of a donestic/property dispute.

DIG Balkar Singh said the preliminary investigation revealed that the family had sold part of its land to Jagdeep's uncle (grandfather of 16-year-old victim Harmandeep Singh) when Jagdeep's elder brother (husband of victim Gurpreet Kaur) Gurdeep Singh had migrated to United States around two years ago.

"The family had spent around Rs 20-25 lakh to send Gurdeep to US and sold land, which appears to have led to dispute among Jagdeep's family members. Since the family had sold land to Jagdeep's uncle, he might have had grudges against him also", said the DIG.
Police said the domestic dispute appeared to be the reason behind the incident.

Army man opens fire, kills 4 in Punjab - The Times of India

 

[desimorty]

Do we know if he was a member of some Khalistani group?

Source: Indian Army man opens fire, kills 4 in Punjab | Page 2

his targets were his own family neighbours...what drama are watching...all Sikhs are Khalistani only waiting for India's grand invasion into Amritser...hasn't happened since 1984 and the Punjabis are getting what they want since the end of Indra Gandhi. Every politician, from India, UK, Canada pander to Sikh Minorities.

 

[Psychic]

I was only asking about the type of terrain, terrorists attack tactics- gurella warfare or Swamp attack in high numbers. local support, and the problem faced by the security forces. And about the air attack because its been carried out in Pakistani soil and not Afghanistan, and the border is sealed i supposed.

When the militants fight conventional plus non conventional war then air attacks become necessary. For example in 2008 in Bajur, a whole battalion was surrounded by militants, they had to break through. What we are fighting is not even close to the situation in Kashmir, there is no comparison.

and the border is sealed i supposed.

Hamid Karzai did not let us seal the border.
The border is heavily manned by our troops only. The ANA/NATO are deployed on the border in small numbers.

Doesn't Pakistani Govt. nurtured them so that they could fight Pro Soviet govt. in Afghanistan.

There was no presence of USSR's troops in Afghanistan from 1947 to 1979.
Our govts did not touch them and they enjoyed freedoms. They would have fought back had we tried to bring them under control before.
We fought Soviets for our interests- we are not answerable to any one on why or how we did that. Russians were no saints and Indians are no saints either.

 

[knight11]

Ask USA why it uses army UAV's and AC130's along with Apaches in Afghanistan. Plus our tribal areas were anatomus regions since 1947 and had no police.

Know it very well how that tribal area with weapons ranging from Russians AKs, Rocket launchers, gas masks are sold like vegetables in bazzar. And local people roaming with AK-47 in roads normally. That area is famous not only from 1947 but way long before during Ranjeet Singh of Punjab, and the Britishers. But the question arises why Pakistan didn't tried to bring them under pakistani jurisdictions after 1947. Doesn't Pakistani Govt. nurtured them so that they could fight Pro Soviet govt. in Afghanistan.

When the militants fight conventional plus non conventional war then air attacks become necessary. For example in 2008 in Bajur, a whole battalion was surrounded by militants, they had to break through. What we are fighting is not even close to the situation in Kashmir, there is no comparison.

That why I said I don't know the terrain, conditions, situations in Pakistan, but I still believe for conventional fight Army should be used and for no conventional, only paramilitary and local police to maintain law and order with the help of efficient local intelligence. The unfamous area in the afghan-pak border should be deweaponized ASAP.

Hamid Karzai did not let us seal the border.
The border is heavily manned by our troops only. The ANA/NATO are deployed on the border in small numbers.

No Hamid Karzai can stop Pakistan to seal its own border (wall, trench, wired), Use Rangers to seal whole afghan-pak border, and divert your attention toward afghan border than Indo-pak border, as India have already blocked border and India don't have any plan to attack Pakistan, but Pakistan's feared Indian agression.

There was no presence of USSR's troops in Afghanistan from 1947 to 1979.
Our govts did not touch them and they enjoyed freedoms. They would have fought back had we tried to bring them under control before.
We fought Soviets for our interests- we are not answerable to any one on why or how we did that. Russians were no saints and Indians are no saints either.

Thats why said Pro soviet afghan govt. and not soviet. Afghanistan was always complex region may be thats why British kept afghanistan as the buffer state between british govt in india and Soviet union.

No one is asking any question about why pakistan jumped into afghan to fight soviet, they have their right of choise, and interest, but I was asking why they kept the area in pakistan away from its law jurisdiction, and kept them automonous which now proving itself headache to Pakistan. Pakistan should understan that there is no good talliban and bad talliban Anyway nothing is late, good luck to the operation to elliminate the terrorism in Pakistan, and that will be benefit to all Indian Subcontinent region, including India, pakistan and afghanistan.

No body is bad or evil. its the choice of the leadership not the choice of People.

 

[Psychic]

for no conventional, only paramilitary and local police to maintain law and order with the help of efficient local intelligence

It is not that simple and straight forward as you believe it is.

The TTP entrenched in mountains and defended areas under it's control as a conventional force. Does the police possess the capability to launch a frontal assault on a 3000 meters high mountain and attack well entrenched defenders who are masters of ambush and have booby trapped and mined the approaches to that mountain? Can the police fight militants who use caves to hide from air attacks and use tunnel systems to launch counter attacks from unexpected directions?

The job of the police is to nab the sleeper cells of TTP residing in urban centers not to go in far away mountains where thousands of fighters are manning fortified defenses.

Entire Pakistan is the battle ground. Our police and intel agencies are fighting TTP sleeper cells and suicide bombers in Urban cities and villages, paramilitary is manning border posts and performing clearance operations alongside the regular army in the tribal areas.

No Hamid Karzai can stop Pakistan to seal its own border

He did that a long time ago during Musharraf's era.

Thats why said Pro soviet afghan govt. and not soviet.

Pakistan did not have any intentions against Pro-Soviet Afghan govt however the Pro-Soviet Afghan govt kept on irritating us since 1947...for about three decades Pakistan never did Afghanistan any harm despite Afghan govt's continuous support of various separatist elements inside Pakistan. They ultimately tasted their own medicine in 1975.

. Doesn't Pakistani Govt. nurtured them so that they could fight Pro Soviet govt. in Afghanistan.

After 1975 or 79 maybe yes. But before that, a big fat NO. They were left on their own. These people were neither going to hand over their weapons nor accept Pakistani laws. They were the same way when the British were there and remained the same.

 

[Areesh]

@haviZsultan
Nope.The incident was a result of a donestic/property dispute.

Everything happens because of some dispute dumbass. Only psychos start killing people on it. Like in this case an Indian army soldier.