Indian Air Force - Exercises Discussions

[Munir]

"MKI is more or less an impressive plane but the arena is not the same anymore. PAF adopted new strategy (ground radar, netcentric, IFR, AWACS, low RCS, BVR etc etc) while IAF is stilling enjoying a few MKI and a lot of Mig21's..."

A few facts.

India has bought green pine and aerostat radars to boost its ground radar capability.The new network centric warfare capability has already been flagged off( i'll try to get u a link but it was widely reported in the indian media) India is also buying Phalcon AWACS. The IAF mirage-2000,mig-29,su-30MKI and Mig-21 bison are all already BVR capable.

OK here's the link...

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200510180904.htm

If I have to rely on those sources then you would have landed on the moon and beated everything. And if you had read between the lines... You would have seen that I meant IAF advantage over PAF has gone. No longer will MKI posses unmatched advantages like a big radar and lots of firepower... Its like India shows the rest of the world their imported nuclear devices and a few later the advantage is gone after multiple test explosions by Pakistan. All it can achieve is a MAD scenario...

 

[MIG_ACE]

If I have to rely on those sources then you would have landed on the moon and beated everything. And if you had read between the lines... You would have seen that I meant IAF advantage over PAF has gone. No longer will MKI posses unmatched advantages like a big radar and lots of firepower... Its like India shows the rest of the world their imported nuclear devices and a few later the advantage is gone after multiple test explosions by Pakistan. All it can achieve is a MAD scenario...

Alright have it u'r way.Please give me sources which disprove what i've said.
Also give me a source which says that " India has landed on the moon and beated everything" Thank you.

 

[Munir]

Humour isn't your world is it?

-Indian press isn't exactly objective. I can show you hundreds of examples but I will not lower this discussion to that level.

-If you cannot understand that India has lost the advantage then I missed your background. Al Khaled, Al Zarrar, several other army equipment, Anza series, Bakter Shikan series, nuclear tipped missiles, Babur, H2, H4, UAV's, Mushaq, K8, Fc1 and several other products are only top of the iceberg. All gone through production and some even exports. Then you get 90+ block52 with Pantera, hms, Amraam c5. You will see Jf10 (and Fc20). You will see 10 orions, You will see f22 ships. And we can continue with Erieye... Interlinks in J10, F16 block52, Jf17. There is a major shift in ballance. Whether you like it or not.

Maybe I am totally not comparable to mr Murad but I do have enough connections, resources and education in that field.

 

[Munir]

Let me put it as simple as possible.

I don't say Pakistan is superduper or India is worst as possible but...

Arjun was painted as top tank yet India bought Russian tanks and dumped it...
LCA was painted as superplane but India bought Mig29 and is looking for 125 MRCA...
Trishul was painted as top tech yet India bought Barak...

Now India is tlaking about UCAV (*see Keymag) so I am not shaking at all.

At the same time Pakistan...

Made Al Kahled a decent end product with even BMS...
Is running very well with the JF17 program...
Made Babur and has multiple hidden missile programs...

 

[vnomad]

I don't say Pakistan is superduper or India is worst as possible but...

Arjun was painted as top tank yet India bought Russian tanks and dumped it...

Arjun is in service. It has production issues though and is quite expensive.

LCA was painted as superplane but India bought Mig29 and is looking for 125 MRCA...

The LCA is a different class of aircraft. One could argue that the Su-30MKI is a great fighter so why induct 126 different aircraft. Go for more MKIs.

Trishul was painted as top tech yet India bought Barak...

Trishul wasn't really painted as top tech.

 

[Goodperson]

Maybe they anticipated them as turkey shoot? One other thing that suproses me is that Indian pilots/media are the only one to shout that they have beated opponents badly... It is a matter of respect not to degrade opponents during training. There you are with a top western F15 limited on all levels and fighting in outnumbered situation... What else would you expect?

Let me put it differently... you will go with MKI to the US. There you will fight a4 skyhawk and f5 freedom fighter. You are not allowed to use BVR, BVR radar modes, HMS, and you will be always fighting 4 versus 12... I think the US will still say positive words about you... Purely respect.

I don't think you have read the artcles. Or you know much about exersices.
Your logic of saying "Let me put it differently... you will go with MKI to the US" amuses me.

Media says what ever it gets to know, Even if you think US said positive about India or were surprised by Indian its fine.

 

[Munir]

Haven't read anything valuable in the reply. Atleast I amused you.

 

[TomCat111]

again put J-10 or JF-17 in wikipedia, to learn more about their stated capabilities.

1. wikipedia isn’t word of gospel.
2. Ever noticed the ‘EDIT’ options on its pages?

Their real capabilities surely cannot exceed their stated paper capabilities

Why not? Are you suggesting wikipedia provides indisputable information and its word is the final word? As a mater of fact, I am purvey to certain info on J-10 or JF-17s that I have yet to see anywhere on internet. Let me just say this, general public doesn’t have a clue about their real potential.

The MKI's wont have changed a damn things.

Please don’t loose the chain of argument. In message # 6 you boasted, “MKI is the most advanced a/c in teh subcontinent, better or atleast equal in capabilities to any F-15... They mayy take out an MKi if they have numerical superiority or something unexpected... But you otta know that in the cope excercises, India did not use the MKI, they used regular old Su-30.” In message # 22, I called your bluff by asking the following question, “Please share with us how the MKIs would have changed the equation?” instead of taking the challenge by explaining how the MKI's might have made the difference you took the easy road by giving a ridiculous response in message # 31, which suggests, you are high on propaganda and bravado and low on substance.

And you will see clearly stated there, it is a better match than the US F-15. F-16's are simply not a match.

Please share with us exactly where does it provide comparisons either with F-15s or F-16's, because I didn’t see any such comparison on the link you provided? Please allow me to ask you again in simple words, please share with us, exactly HOW the MKIs would have changed the equation?

no1 is saying that India can take on the USAF

I sure hope so, because only an ignorant fool could make such a stupendous claim.

it is simply a matter to compare, that if this was the case with Su-30's and F-15's.What would happen with MKI's and F-16's.

Skew the odds in your favor in an exercise and I bet you could have won even with bi-planes too. How about putting restrictions on American F-15s that they be parked in open with bold red ‘X’ marking on top, their avionics disabled and its engines stripped? Do you actually think that MKIs could beat F-15s with such odds in real battles too? Absolutely not. As far as, MKI's vs. F-16's goes, it will be a fair fight, because F-16s will see the MKI's at a further distance, because of MKIs larger RCS; hence will take the first BVR shot before the Flanker would even realize the Falcon was there.

Now do u see where i am getting?

Yes. Getting to lala land.

 

[Munir]

>>>it will be a fair fight, because F-16s will see the MKI's at a further distance, because of MKIs larger RCS; hence will take the first BVR shot before the Flanker would even realize the Falcon was there.

I don't agree wtih the last part. BVR will be launched at the same time. It is the flying distance of the missile and not the radar coverage of the launching aircraft that limits real potential.

But then you can say that a bigger RCS will be easier to track by smaller missile radar. A smaller plane would be more difficult to see (visual) than a big one. A big plane will be less difficult to hit by gun... And the advantage of big radar is gone thatnks to interlinking/ground and air radars.

 

[Goodperson]

Its quite true that the USAF is using Cope India to push for the F/A-22, Do read my posts I have given links for comparisons.

1. The AESA F-15's were "dropped" because of logistical concerns and because the IAF was not seen a threat meriting them.

2. The USAF was clearly overconfident.
They ,per their own admission, expected the Indians to be a bunch of Russia trained poorly equipped third world types..they were shocked to learn that IAF pilots flew upto 350 hrs per year...the Su30 pilots did exactly that.

3. They expected vintage aircraft and standard tactics- the IAF varied aircraft, changed tactics and mixed interceptors with strike packages to surprise the US..

4.If the US was not allowed the use the Amraams..then we also need to consider that the Indian aircraft were all inferior to the F-15's. The F15's had the APG63 radar...the best the Indians fielded was the NOO1V on their Su30K's...a generation older and equipped with a cassegrain antenna.

5. The training matters...Indian pilots fly blue air...they train against the best of their peers..the USAF flies red air..per their own subsequent admissions and sometimes that leads to a policy wherein the opfor has downgraded to simulate realism..and training is easier. The IAF system is more brutal and hence has its payoffs.

6. The USAF AMRAAM limitation sucked but then so did the fact- for the IAF- that their avionics werent as good. The IAF did not field their Su30MKI's which could easily match the F15C's.

7. Out of the 12 a/c- half of them were strikers, not air to air aircraft. The USAF F15C's faced approximately equal number of Air to air opponents, each of which was flying an inferior aircraft overall. (As US percieves)

8. The IAF MIg21's are the upgraded versions in service- they have Russian radars, avionics, Indian RWR's and Israeli jammers..plus R77's, helmet sights and R73E's. In the close fight and with an element of suprise they can level the playing field.

9. Indian Sukhois used their IRST's to conduct passive attacks against the F15's taking them by surprise. Again- tactics backed by technology.

In essence, Cope India was "dont underestimate your opponent"- if you do so, you get yourself surprised.

Thats exactly why the IAF was invited to the Alaska exercises thereafter..they proved their worth as credible opponents and hence the USAF wanted to see if they could spring any more tricks.

The USAF used the exercise to push for the F/A-22 but the F15 jocks were caught off guard and that led to some widespread derision in the competitive fighter jock community.

 

[sigatoka]

2. The USAF was clearly overconfident.
They ,per their own admission, expected the Indians to be a bunch of Russia trained poorly equipped third world types..they were shocked to learn that IAF pilots flew upto 350 hrs per year...the Su30 pilots did exactly that.

Russia is not a third world country and i can not also accept that India's airdefence capability is greater than Russia's. India does not have extremely capable surface to air missiles like S-300's and massive stockpiles of surface to air missile systems from Shilka's to shoulder launched missiles.

India's have also sacrifised greater future capability by keeping and upgrading their Mig-21's, the Russian's took a massive hit and if im not mistaken have scrapped them all from active service. In fifteen years time IAF will lose half their combat aircraft as the Mig-21's will be falling apart in mid air unless they are scrapped, the Russian's will not face the same problem.

Training is not a big problem, Russia has never seen itself as a strong middle power, it has and always will aspire to be a leading global power. Russia has scrapped their worst planes and cut down on brutally on pilot training and ploughed the savings into future plane development. In fifteen years time Russia will still be continuing to develop capable planes and will have the resources to improve training levels to the best in the western world. What about India? Having spent their resources on keeping Mig-21's afloat and pilot training, in fifteen years time it wont have the Mig-21's and the current generation of pilots will be gone and it will still be forced to spend on training just to maintain pilot proficiency. Russia's current capability must be seen as a conscious trade off on Russia's part on foregoing current capability to attempt a leap frog in the next twenty years on its path to regaining its posistion as a leading global power. On current path of both India and Russia, Russia will continue keeping its lead inspite of expected massive growth in India's economy.

 

[Goodperson]

Russia is not a third world country and i can not also accept that India's airdefence capability is greater than Russia's. India does not have extremely capable surface to air missiles like S-300's and massive stockpiles of surface to air missile systems from Shilka's to shoulder launched missiles.

India's have also sacrifised greater future capability by keeping and upgrading their Mig-21's, the Russian's took a massive hit and if im not mistaken have scrapped them all from active service. In fifteen years time IAF will lose half their combat aircraft as the Mig-21's will be falling apart in mid air unless they are scrapped, the Russian's will not face the same problem.

Training is not a big problem, Russia has never seen itself as a strong middle power, it has and always will aspire to be a leading global power. Russia has scrapped their worst planes and cut down on brutally on pilot training and ploughed the savings into future plane development. In fifteen years time Russia will still be continuing to develop capable planes and will have the resources to improve training levels to the best in the western world. What about India? Having spent their resources on keeping Mig-21's afloat and pilot training, in fifteen years time it wont have the Mig-21's and the current generation of pilots will be gone and it will still be forced to spend on training just to maintain pilot proficiency. Russia's current capability must be seen as a conscious trade off on Russia's part on foregoing current capability to attempt a leap frog in the next twenty years on its path to regaining its posistion as a leading global power. On current path of both India and Russia, Russia will continue keeping its lead inspite of expected massive growth in India's economy.

I am not discussing about Russia. F-15 pilots perceived IAF and russian aircrafts and how thay were surprised. Purely about cope India exercise

Why are you discussing about S-300s, Mig -21 crashes and economy

 

[Contrarian]

1. wikipedia isn’t word of gospel.
2. Ever noticed the ‘EDIT’ options on its pages?

Have you tried editing wikipedia's pages and putting on junk...you get warnings.

Why not? Are you suggesting wikipedia provides indisputable information and its word is the final word? As a mater of fact, I am purvey to certain info on J-10 or JF-17s that I have yet to see anywhere on internet. Let me just say this, general public doesn’t have a clue about their real potential.

Well...cant the same be said about MKI?? That it has a LOT more potential than what is stated.And are you implying that either the J-10 or the JF-17 are superior to the MKI??

Please don’t loose the chain of argument. In message # 6 you boasted, “MKI is the most advanced a/c in teh subcontinent, better or atleast equal in capabilities to any F-15... They mayy take out an MKi if they have numerical superiority or something unexpected... But you otta know that in the cope excercises, India did not use the MKI, they used regular old Su-30.” In message # 22, I called your bluff by asking the following question, “Please share with us how the MKIs would have changed the equation?” instead of taking the challenge by explaining how the MKI's might have made the difference you took the easy road by giving a ridiculous response in message # 31, which suggests, you are high on propaganda and bravado and low on substance.

Well..the IAF managed some shots without the MKI's.Imagine now that there wuold have been a greater tilt in the results towards the Indian side had India used the MKI's. Read the lines after i have this one in the earlier post which you have quoted.

Please share with us exactly where does it provide comparisons either with F-15s or F-16's, because I didn’t see any such comparison on the link you provided? Please allow me to ask you again in simple words, please share with us, exactly HOW the MKIs would have changed the equation?

The results would have been even more in favour of the IAF, as they would have used their most advancved plane.

I sure hope so, because only an ignorant fool could make such a stupendous claim.

There is no need to comment on that. It is obvious.

Skew the odds in your favor in an exercise and I bet you could have won even with bi-planes too. How about putting restrictions on American F-15s that they be parked in open with bold red ‘X’ marking on top, their avionics disabled and its engines stripped? Do you actually think that MKIs could beat F-15s with such odds in real battles too? Absolutely not. As far as, MKI's vs. F-16's goes, it will be a fair fight, because F-16s will see the MKI's at a further distance, because of MKIs larger RCS; hence will take the first BVR shot before the Flanker would even realize the Falcon was there.

You should know that the MKI's have a beastly radar, the F-16's would be seen by the MKI at a far greater distance. Google the radar depth of an F-16 and an MKI and you will see yourself.

Yes. Getting to lala land.

I heard lala land was like "THE" place to be with parties and hot chicks every night .

 

[Munir]

It looks so pathetic hearing that IAF would swoop USAF. Somehow the forum degrades towards BRF level. On every forum where Indians are acting like virusses the forum ends like a crappy, onesided, untrue and arrogant media.

It happened with airforcesmonthly forum and now even here...

 

[Goodperson]

Please look at the title of the topic, The exercises were long over. When Indians
replied with proper sources you have started to complain. This was not any anti-pak topic.