What's new

Indian Air Force - Exercises Discussions

TomCat111

FULL MEMBER
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
527
Reaction score
0
Cope India, the myth is busted - The simulated combat exercises between the US Air Force and the Indian Air Force

by Adnan Gill

Lately, the military pundits seemingly cannot get tired of expressing their surprise and shock over how Indian Air Force (IAF) topped the United States Air Force (USAF) during the most recent in the Cope India series of joint Indo-US military exercises. Reportedly, overwhelming air battle victories - about 90% - were awarded to IAF, as they achieved their objectives time and time again.

But what both gloating Indian and surprised American military analyst hesitate in telling the world is the well masked relevance in which Indian victories took place and how the Americans did not go to India to win? If today, both of these Air Forces would go against each other in anger, would India be able to embarrass the USAF like it did during the 'Cope India, 04?' Not at all.

Following is a brief history of what actually took place, its context, and the most likely American agenda for going to India.

In February 2004, supposedly the best of the best from United States Air Force (USAF) and Indian Air Force (IAF) took part in simulated air-to-air multi-bogey combat engagements over the skies of Gwalior, IAF base. These mock battles were part of an exercise named "Cope India, 04."

Gwalior is an Indian airbase, about 150 mi. south of New Delhi. It is the home of the IAF's Tactics Air Combat Development Establishment/operational training, testing and national-level exercises. The station is the only Indian air force electronic warfare range. Typically upgraded (reportedly equipped with a "gray-market" Bison radar and avionics upgrade) MiG-21 Fishbeds as fighter escorts and MiG-27 Floggers in strike roles operate out of this IAF establishment. It might be significant to highlight that the TACDE is the closest establishment that the IAF has to the USAF's Fighter Weapons School at Nellis AFB. For the duration of exercise IAF's Mirages 2000s, MiG-29s, Sukhoi Su-30s and an Antonov An-32 as a simulated AWACS all called Gwalior their home.

For their part, the US Air Force assets in the exercise included six F-15 aircraft and approximately 140 personnel from Elmendorf AFB, took part in the exercise.

If anything, the USAF military planners sitting in Pentagon used the exercise to their advantage. They wanted a close look at what the latest Russian technology had to offer, wanted to evaluate their own tactics honed against the non-western adversaries, and most importantly wanted to create a crises in the US congress to ensure uninterrupted congressional funding for the development and production of both F/A-22 (Raptors) and F-35 (Joint Strike Fighters). Expectedly, the results of Cope India shocked some in Pentagon who used the event to renew calls for modernizing the US fighter force with stealthy F/A-22s and F-35 Joint Strike Fighters.

After the conclusion of the exercise, the Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. John Jumper immediately went to Congress to guarantee the survival and prosperity of his favourite projects. While lobbying for the uninterrupted congressional funding for the development and production for F/A-22 and F-35 aircraft, the Air Force Chief told the Senate Appropriations defence subcommittee in March that the results of Cope India were "very revealing". He successfully used Cope India as a justification that the extremely expensive F/A-22s are vital for the continued US air superiority.

In the halls of US Congress too the friends of US top brass like Rep. Duke Cunningham (R-CA) did their part in scaring the daylights out of rest of their colleagues to ensure F/A-22's future. The Congressman told the House Appropriations defence subcommittee that the US F-15Cs were defeated more than 90 percent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF.

Some facts of the Cope India
At India's request, manoeuvring limits as well as considerable weapons employment limits were put on the USAF. The US agreed to mock combat at 3-to-1 odds which were highly favourable for the IAF. Indians also requested USAF not to use the simulated long-range, radar-guided AIM-120 AMRAMS. The rules of exercise put severe limits on the AIM-120 capability. Its range was limited to a 20 nautical miles while keeping the target illuminated in attack missions and 18 nautical miles. defensive in defensive missions. It meant that the missile could not be simulated to be used as active seeking BVR missile.

In an interview with Aviation Week & Space Technology (10/04/2004), Maj. Mark A. Snowden, the 3rd Wing's chief of air-to-air tactics and a participant in Cope India, revealed the root cause of beating USAF got from the Indians. He explained that none of the six 3rd Wing F-15Cs which had been to Singapore for another exercise were equipped with the newest long-range, active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars. USAF could have easily brought the AESA-equipped F-15Cs with them from Singapore, but the excuse given for not bringing them was that they didn't want to bring along the additional maintenance package needed to support such F-15Cs.

The other reason Maj. Snowden attributed for the drubbing they got was the USAF handicap of manoeuvring limits as well as considerable weapons employment limits put on the request of Indians. "That's what the Indians wanted to do," Maj. Snowden explained. "That [handicap] really benefits a numerically superior force because you can't whittle away some of their force at long range. They were simulating active missiles [including] AA-12s" (Aviation Week & Space Technology, 10/04/2004, page 50). This means, while the USAF could not use simulated long-range, radar-guided AIM-120 AMRAMS, the Indians had an overwhelming advantage of using the missiles with their integral on-board radar transmitter and didn't depend on the launch aircraft's radar after launch. The Indian Mirage 2000s also carried the long-range active MICA missiles.

Skeptics also believe that USAF fought the losing battles in attempts to convince Pentagon for the development of a new long-range air-to-air missile that would be able to complement the F-22's radars with ability to find targets more than 120 nautical miles away. They also wanted to ensure the F-22's air superiority fighter role by providing incentive to Pentagon to start rapid production of the new AIM-9X high-off-boresight launch capable missile, and its helmet-mounted cueing system. Experts doubt that the SU-30 MK would face difficulty shooting their BVR missiles from considerable distance against relatively small Radar Cross-Section (RCS) F-16 or F-18s and certainly against the stealthy F-22 or F-35. In fact, Pakistan Air Force's F-16s with their smaller RCS would have had better chances of winning in Cope India.

Whatever the hidden agendas Americans might have had for fixing the outcome of the exercise, one thing is for sure, they didn't return from India without gaining respect for their worthy foes, who they thought of underrated and ill-trained pilots. Americans went to the exercise with the belief that the IAF still used the Soviet-style tactics of ground-controlled interceptions. But returned with new respect and understanding that Indian pilots were quite capable of showing innovation and flexibility in their tactics. Americans were surprised that the Indians used more advanced tactics, which Maj. Snowden thought were developed "somewhat in a vacuum".

Had the USAF gone to India to win, they would have sent ASEA equipped F-15Cs and fought without debilitating handicaps of manoeuvring limits as well as considerable weapons employment limits, which clearly favoured the numerically superior IAF. It could be argued, that in reality USAF went to India with the objectives to get a closer look at the latest Russian hardware, and wanted to evaluate their own tactics developed against the non-western adversaries, and most importantly wanted to guarantee uninterrupted governmental funding for the development and production of both F/A-22 and F-35.

http://owlstree.blogspot.com/2005/02/cope-india-myth-is-busted-simulated.html
 
You are still struck in Cope India 04 ?

Well one more Cope India exercise happened in 06, with similar results.

Anyways your reference from some blog is based on theory that Indian planes cannot stand a chance against the US, Even if Indians surprised the US that was only because US wanted to go for better planes.

Even the India did not put their best planes against the US. Such exercises are based on tactics and strategy to tackle each other US pilots were awed by agility and skills of Indian pilots.

One good thing is that I am seeing less criticism of Indian pilots in Pakistani forums ;)

But if you have a predetermined bias then nobody can convince you Even the exercises have no meaning for you.
 
MKI is a leading technology those IAF guys have. That thing will continue to beat down almost any aircraft one on one. Once the IAF gets their Phalcons, IAF will become an effective force to be dealt with.
 
MKI is a leading technology those IAF guys have. That thing will continue to beat down almost any aircraft one on one. Once the IAF gets their Phalcons, IAF will become an effective force to be dealt with.
:confused:
I have a question? Do you mean that IAF will become an effective force for PAF or forces like USAF and RAF. I just thought PAF as of the new fighter acquisitions like JF-17, F-16 and J-10 alongside Saab radars.
 
Effective for any air force. To counter it an air force must have the same capabilities if not more.
 
MKI is the most advanced a/c in teh subcontinent, better or atleast equal in capabilities to any F-15. Neither the JF-17 nor the J-10 can match it in a 1 on 1 basis. Not even remotely so. They mayy take out an MKi if they have numerical superiority or something unexpected.

But you otta know that in the cope excercises, India did not use the MKI, they used regular old Su-30.
and btw, who is this guy adnan...it seems all his intent is to write up how everything gd that has happened in India, is a huge sham and/or was let to happen at the mercy of some1 else.


Goodperson, regarding Pakistani bashing Indian pilots , please goto PDF and u will actually Pakistani's there actually abusing Indians for defending their pilots. Its shocking there, the second any Indian posts something, people start abusing.


Allow me to post something from another forum...
 
Allow me to post something from another forum...

Please don't! We all know PDF, IDF, BR, Iran-Forum etc and other national fora and have free access to read whatever is posted there.

PFF is different, known for its modest and moderate style and has the potential to become the best Pakistani forum ever.

One thing we don't want is to to degrade others.

Thanks!
 
A refreshing read again thanks but most of the knowledgeable knew about the handicaps and the points the US pilots were trying to prove. ;)
 
A refreshing read again thanks but most of the knowledgeable knew about the handicaps and the points the US pilots were trying to prove. ;)

Ha They also do lots of exercises with lots of countries and have experience of Battlefiled.

And they come preplaned to India only to loose :army:
 
I knew it was going like that, USA has the best air-force and no way they would loose to someting like SU-30MKI, F-15 is a top notch fighter, and well respeted on the battlefield, aswell as other air crafts not saying SU-30's are bad, but America has better technological advantage!
 
Please don't! We all know PDF, IDF, BR, Iran-Forum etc and other national fora and have free access to read whatever is posted there.

PFF is different, known for its modest and moderate style and has the potential to become the best Pakistani forum ever.

One thing we don't want is to to degrade others.

Thanks!

again sorry mate, didnt know i couldnt do that. Will remeber next time.
 
I knew it was going like that, USA has the best air-force and no way they would loose to someting like SU-30MKI, F-15 is a top notch fighter, and well respeted on the battlefield, aswell as other air crafts not saying SU-30's are bad, but America has better technological advantage!
Actually IAF had not used the Su-30MKI against the USAF F-15s .They had used the much inferior Su-30 base version> I have a photo of a USAF f-15 flying alongside indian Su-30s (not MKIs) during cope india 2004..Am i allowed to post it here or only in multimedia section??
One of the reasons IAF did not field MKIs was bcoz the USAF declined to bring F-16s.The IAF did however use MKIS in the exercise with RAF recently.
 
Its only the dumbest of the **** who would say that IAF stands a chance against the USAF.

Cope04 was a DACT(thanks to highsea,now i know what the hell it means) and was to get to know each other rather than a mock fight to see who is better.USAF was surprised not awed,they said IAf pilots were much smarted than they thought,their reaction time was much qucker and had planes in much better conditions than that was reported.And as Adnan has rightly pointed out their were some restrictions placed on USAF engagements.

So it was a case of reality Vs perception.

But isnt it like a pretty old topic to discuss,this issue has been raped and dissected in almost all forums i know.
 
Its only the dumbest of the **** who would say that IAF stands a chance against the USAF.

Cope04 was a DACT(thanks to highsea,now i know what the hell it means) and was to get to know each other rather than a mock fight to see who is better.USAF was surprised not awed,they said IAf pilots were much smarted than they thought,their reaction time was much qucker and had planes in much better conditions than that was reported.And as Adnan has rightly pointed out their were some restrictions placed on USAF engagements.

So it was a case of reality Vs perception.

But isnt it like a pretty old topic to discuss,this issue has been raped and dissected in almost all forums i know.

Good facts:tup:
i dono whats a point of extracting old sh!t and what are we proving here?
:disagree:
 
1. MKI is the most advanced a/c in teh subcontinent, better or atleast equal in capabilities to any F-15.

2. Neither the JF-17 nor the J-10 can match it in a 1 on 1 basis. Not even remotely so. They mayy take out an MKi if they have numerical superiority or something unexpected.

Firstly the exercises are irrelevant because most Indian planes and airfields will be degraded beyond recognition by long range ship launched U.S. cruise missiles. Others housing the best aircraft will be hit hard with U.S. stealth bombers. It is after all this is said that U.S. aircrafts and whats left of the Indian airforce will do battle.

I mean the gap between Iraqi Mig-29's and U.S. F-16's in gulf war was less than between the majority of India's aircrafts and U.S. aircrafts. Indian pilots may be well trained, but it beggars belief that with their Mig-21's they are going to do much better where the Iraqi's with their Mig-29's (and the Serbian's with theirs) could achieve nothing. For all the talk, India's aircrafts are much more exposed on the ground than even Saudi aircrafts. The airdefence of these airfields and hardening is much worse than Saudi's provide for their aircraft. A destoryed MKI on the ground is useless which is all the action that an MKI in Indian hands is going to achieve.

1. I doubt whether this MKI is even much better than an F-16 let alone F-15's.

2. The FC-1 costs less and gives Pakistan some development opportunities, it would be more fairer to compare the LCA to the FC-1. On a cost basis, the FC-1 will be very competitive with an MKI.
 
Back
Top Bottom