Indian aggression at LOC

[ares]

India's tough posture on border has been in place since June
Deeptiman Tiwary,TNN | Oct 9, 2014, 06.02 AM IST

NEW DELHI: India's tough stance on the border and heavy retaliation to Pakistan's ceasefire violations is not new-found aggression. It is a feature that has continued since June and was visible in the heavy casualties India inflicted on Pakistan in the July-August offensive. The October operation is only a heightened expression of it.

Through 2014, 13 Indians have been killed by Pakistani fire during ceasefire violations. Of this, only one was a soldier. On the Pakistani side, however, there have been close to 25 casualties which include three soldiers and two LeT terrorists due to Indian retaliation.

In 2013, as many as 12 Indian soldiers had died in a combination of cross-border firing and Pakistan BAT (Border Action Team) operation while one civilian was reported killed. On the other side, according to Pakistani media reports that quoted documents presented to the Senate Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, there were nine military casualties and six civilian deaths.

Even during the August 2014 offensive, Indian forces mounted greater firepower as compared to their approach during a similar offensive in August 2013. The result was that as many as eight people, including soldiers, LeT terrorists and civilians, were killed in Pakistan and over two dozen injured in the firings that began on August 16 this year. On the Indian side, however, there were only two casualties — of civilians. All these incidents took place on the International Border in Jammu guarded by BSF.

"We are thrice in strength of Pakistan Rangers and thus have as many weapons. This has resulted in heavy casualties on the other side even though Pakistan Rangers are being supported by their army. We will continue to retaliate fiercely until Pakistan stops firing," said a senior BSF officer.

However, the tragedy of the offensive is that increasingly, civilians are getting killed on both sides. In the latest offensive, 23 civilians have lost their lives on both sides of the border while not a single soldier has been killed. "Innocent civilians are paying the price for two big forces fighting. They are dying for being at the wrong place. Just for their sake, this firing should stop as soon as possible," said a BSF officer.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

In other words, you are accusing India for all major problems your country is facing.

I am offering my "theories" in response to the unsubstantiate rubbish being provided by Indians as "motive" for Pakistan to have initiated the latest round of hostilities.

Assuming that India started the violations with the intentions that you mention, shouldn't you be taking it rather seriously and summon Indian High commissioner to atleast lodge your protests?

Pakistan has done better - it has raised the issue at the UN and involved UNMOGIP to validate her version of events.

India's tough posture on border has been in place since June
Deeptiman Tiwary,TNN | Oct 9, 2014, 06.02 AM IST

NEW DELHI: India's tough stance on the border and heavy retaliation to Pakistan's ceasefire violations is not new-found aggression. It is a feature that has continued since June and was visible in the heavy casualties India inflicted on Pakistan in the July-August offensive. The October operation is only a heightened expression of it.

Through 2014, 13 Indians have been killed by Pakistani fire during ceasefire violations. Of this, only one was a soldier. On the Pakistani side, however, there have been close to 25 casualties which include three soldiers and two LeT terrorists due to Indian retaliation.

In 2013, as many as 12 Indian soldiers had died in a combination of cross-border firing and Pakistan BAT (Border Action Team) operation while one civilian was reported killed. On the other side, according to Pakistani media reports that quoted documents presented to the Senate Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, there were nine military casualties and six civilian deaths.

Even during the August 2014 offensive, Indian forces mounted greater firepower as compared to their approach during a similar offensive in August 2013. The result was that as many as eight people, including soldiers, LeT terrorists and civilians, were killed in Pakistan and over two dozen injured in the firings that began on August 16 this year. On the Indian side, however, there were only two casualties — of civilians. All these incidents took place on the International Border in Jammu guarded by BSF.

"We are thrice in strength of Pakistan Rangers and thus have as many weapons. This has resulted in heavy casualties on the other side even though Pakistan Rangers are being supported by their army. We will continue to retaliate fiercely until Pakistan stops firing," said a senior BSF officer.

However, the tragedy of the offensive is that increasingly, civilians are getting killed on both sides. In the latest offensive, 23 civilians have lost their lives on both sides of the border while not a single soldier has been killed. "Innocent civilians are paying the price for two big forces fighting. They are dying for being at the wrong place. Just for their sake, this firing should stop as soon as possible," said a BSF officer.

1. There is no such thing called a "border action team" in the Pakistani military or paramilitary forces - the term itself is a concoction of fevered Indian imaginations, which reduces the rest of the article to the garbage it is.

 

[ares]

Well here's the thing, there were a lot less fog warnings in that area as I previously thought incorrectly. So if we discount the infiltrator thing, all I can tell is that one side that has the orders to shoot people crossing over opened fire at some civilian and then all hell broke loose at tit for tat firing.

The story on Indian side is..

The ongoing flare-up can be traced to the shelling by Pakistan Rangers on October 3 which killed a girl in Chola village of Saujiyan in Poonch sector about 1.5 km from the fence. The provocation continued the following day when a couple of IED blasts along the LoC in the Mendhar sector, resulted in the killing of an Indian soldier: an incident which the Indian side blamed on terrorists working in conjunction with Pakistan army. The Indian Army retaliated with cross-border firing to take revenge.

Pakistani forces, in turn, chose to turn their focus to the IB sector and target civilians. On October 6, Pakistani rangers shelled Arnia town, killing four civilians and injuring many others — a provocation which escalated the situation.

Pakistan targets BSF posts, villages; India hits back with heavy fire - The Times of India

 

[jaunty]

Pakistan has almost always raised the issue at the UN, this year is nothing new. What is new is that Indians are taken aback by Pakistan's continued focus on raising Kashmir at world level because they thought that "Modi Sarkaar and his 56 inch chest would subdue Pakistan", and instead they find Pakistan reacting strongly to every action taken by Modi:

1. Modi demands Pakistan not meet with Kashmiri separatists at the last minute - Pakistan says buzz off
2. Modi throws a tantrum and cancels bilateral talks - Pakistan continues to raise the issue of UNSC resolutions on Kashmir
3. Modi escalates violence along the IB and LoC - Pakistan responds in kind and escalates on her end as well

Indians and the Indian media have had a rude awakening about Modi and his 56 inch chest, which is where all these histrionics are coming from.

India's position on Kashmir has been that of status quo. India is perfectly ok with the whatever it has. Except a few lunatics wanting "Akhand Bharat", who have zero influence on the policy makers, everyone in India is fine with whatever we have and do not want any change. Therefore common sense dictates that it is NOT in India's interest to have military confrontation. Pakistan on the other hand want to change the current scenario. It should be pretty obvious to everyone who would want a volatile border.

 

[halupridol]

Since neither side is willing to back down publicly, there will probably be some sort of unofficial/informal decision to halt the kinetic action at some predetermined time and date, after which the Indians will start thumping Modi's 56 inch chest and claiming that he "forced Pakistan to back off" just like he managed all those other foreign policy accomplishments claimed by the Indian media, for which their is no tangible proof.

if that is to be the logical conclusion then all this fiasco helped us achieve what?
u make no sense

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

1. It is an attempt by Pakistan to put international focus on the issue which has been missing lately. The recent comments by Nawaz Shariff at the UN are an indication of that.

Here is an excerpt from Zardari's speech at the UN from 2012 - please note the reference to Kashmir and the UNSC resolutions. This latest Indian canard is demonstrably false:
"Mr. President, Our principled position on territorial disputes remains a bedrock of our foreign policy.

We will continue to support the right of the people of Jammu & Kashmir to peacefully choose their destiny in accordance with the UN Security Council's long-standing resolutions on this matter."

2. It is also an attempt by the Pakistani govt to divert attention of the nation from the political crisis it is facing at the moment. Get the situation worse with India, people will start to support the govt.

Perhaps Indians should first make up their minds about whether they want to blame the Pakistani Army for hijacking foreign policy and instigating these latest clashes without the GoP's support or whether they want to blame a weak Prime Minister for ordering the Army to escalate so that he can divert attention from his political issues (which really are not that significant).

 

[jaunty]

2. Is utter nonsense. People of Pakistan never rally behind the gov't no matter what issue, not even against india.

It is an age old tactic. They don't have to rally behind the govt. But if there is a crisis on the border, people/media would focus more on it than IK and Qadri. It is not rocket science. Check today's newspapers and TV shows. Most of them are discussing the border issue whereas until a couple of days ago it was all about the dharna. IK himself would tone down if the situation worsens.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

if that is to be the logical conclusion then all this fiasco helped us achieve what?
u make no sense

Like I said, the Indian media will attempt to make sense of this nonsense by thumping Modis 56 inch chest and feeding the usual propaganda to the brainwashed masses that "Mod forced Pakistan to back down".

 

[jaunty]

Like I said, the Indian media will attempt to make sense of this nonsense by thumping Modis 56 inch chest and feeding the usual propaganda to the brainwashed masses that "Mod forced Pakistan to back down".

So now Indian media makes state policy? wow man!

 

[ares]

I am offering my "theories" in response to the unsubstantiate rubbish being provided by Indians as "motive" for Pakistan to have initiated the latest round of hostilities.

Pakistan has done better - it has raised the issue at the UN and involved UNMOGIP to validate her version of events.


1. There is no such thing called a "border action team" in the Pakistani military or paramilitary forces - the term itself is a concoction of fevered Indian imaginations, which reduces the rest of the article to the garbage it is.

Well maybe not officially...
The blended teams Pakistani jihadis mixed with serving armed forces personnel, who have carried out raids on India side of LOC are know by that name here in India.

And Don't tell me Pakistani army does not work with Jihadis...'Kargil'

 

[iPhone]

Let me take a moment to say my condolences to the dead civilians and soldiers...... on both sides, be Pakistani or Indian.

I would ask the same to every participating member on the site. To show respect to the dead. Don't make insensitive and knee jerk emotional comments on the deaths of innocent people.

I have zero doubts on Pakistan army's integrity and bravery and the resilience and bravery of the people living near the border. But I also have no qualms in believing the bravery of the Indian army either and the bravery of their citizens. They are also just as fine and great an institution as ours.

I hope cooler heads prevail and stop these useless spats. After all we are dealing with professional people with and not some savage terrorists that we can't come to any negotiations.

 

[jaunty]

Perhaps Indians should first make up their minds about whether they want to blame the Pakistani Army for hijacking foreign policy and instigating these latest clashes without the GoP's support or whether they want to blame a weak Prime Minister for ordering the Army to escalate so that he can divert attention from his political issues (which really are not that significant).

So which one is true? You tell me. Is the Army under civilian control? Indians are confused on this, I am ready to admit.

 

[kadamba-warrior]

I am offering my "theories" in response to the unsubstantiate rubbish being provided by Indians as "motive" for Pakistan to have initiated the latest round of hostilities.

Pakistan has done better - it has raised the issue at the UN and involved UNMOGIP to validate her version of events.

Right, infiltrations from Pakistani side are just "unsubstantiated rubbish" then!

Pakistan has done better - it has raised the issue at the UN and involved UNMOGIP to validate her version of events.

The same UN & UNMOGIP which has absolutely zero relevance when it comes to Kashmir after Shimla agreement!

 

[iPhone]

It is an age old tactic. They don't have to rally behind the govt. But if there is a crisis on the border, people/media would focus more on it than IK and Qadri. It is not rocket science. Check today's newspapers and TV shows. Most of them are discussing the border issue whereas until a couple of days ago it was all about the dharna. IK himself would tone down if the situation worsens.

If there is a bomb blast they'll cover that and focus on that rather than the sit ins. They covered floods more than the dharnas also.
They don't need to start a border escalation with india to divert focus from Imran khan. Any number of smaller events can do that.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So now Indian media makes state policy? wow man!

No, but the Indian media is "fed information" by the State to push certain objectives and narratives - in this particular case, the "Modi chest thumping propaganda" in the media will serve the Modi sarkaar's objective of making his non-existent foreign policy accomplishments seem like he actually did something.