India wants second line of fighter jets: Report

[$@rJen]

India would procure both RAFALEs (MII) and F-16s.



Both 90 RAFALEs (MII) and 200+ F-16s are coming and they are not competing against each other.

F16 ???? I don't think so it's ever coming in india.... and certainly we won't manufacture them in india

 

[Abingdonboy]

I think we will be using Israeli AESA on our LCA? maybe it was a deal struck the more we give to the Israelis the more they might offer us perhaps but let's see...

An interesting thought but I couldn't comment on the validity of that brother.


+ @Taygibay @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil why is it that the French forces still do not use the TOPSIGHT/any HMD for their Rafales when Dassualt had already demonstrated it long back on the Rafale?

 

[Gen Padmanabhan]

@Abingdonboy why did we go for the Israeli head mounted system instead of the French? Is it superior and more cost effective?



We selected 36 Rafales not a further order? We are not going back on any process but having more than 1 vendor helps with further orders. This is smart business I see the logic in him doing this.

See if i go to a car showroom i know the car I want which is a Mercedes new E class but I can say look I am looking also at Audi and BMW and will select based on best deal (although I already know i want the merc umm Rafale) but I use it to get further cheaper rate.

Do we know all the changes we asked them to make for our order? This would be interesting for me to know

Are we getting the F3 spec with the latest AESA and upgraded engines?

If deal is only about 36 Rafale, then why establishing Indian assembly line by pvt. players, why upgrading Airbases, why buying MRO.

That is not financially feasible.

I think we will be using Israeli AESA on our LCA? maybe it was a deal struck the more we give to the Israelis the more they might offer us perhaps but let's see...

There will be some commonality between SU-30 MKI, Rafale and LCA. Like targeting pod.

But that is unlikely that Rafale come with Israeli radar. Maybe India choose futuristic Israeli radar for Rafale upgrade by 2035-40.

But I seriously like to see Rafale with Israeli radar, the more commonality in IAF will be, the less maintenance need to be done.

 

[Taygibay]

lol nothing is coming out clear. I personally feel 36+18 Rafales off the shelf and other 70-80 aircraft under make in India( F-18SH most probably)

Which adds two fleets, one micro and one mini to India's impressive type list.
Not only has the hidden goal of a three tier air force emerged from the MMRCA
due to overrunning on time but I trust it was seized willfully by the present GoI.

Without future projects, IAF could sport in 10 years : 300+- MKI, 100+- Rafales and 100+LCAs.
Not a bad base for realistic day to day considerations ... and all made in India!
Then you pick the one or ones in the trio that get you top results and hike prod.!

F18 S/H might be the one

If they provide source codes, AESA and growler it might not be that bad

Yeah but If they provide source codes, AESA and growler, you better bring your
umbrella with your skates as you visit hellfire, cause there'll be pig dung dropping.

I wonder how will Rafale square out against Chengdu J-20s. I pray that these are enough for 500+ fifth gen LO J-20.

We still lack the 120 J-20s much less 500 although they could be there soon if LRIP goes well
but we also lack their concept of use by the PLAAF. For now, China is still lagging
on systems : engines, electronic and optronics. The value of these will impact
the tactics of PLAAF. And it is still a very big bird! Something a small bird of prey
flying closer to the ground can spot in contrast to the sky?

I think most J-20s will be guarding the East personally. Unless Putin grows nastier ...

We must keep the Americans thinking they still have a foot in the door as it will help with further orders for the Rafale. If the french think they are the only vendor they will stick to their guns and not move on the price.

You'll find that we didn't move on price that much when the rest comes out ...
which considering the initial G2G deal is actually base price, close to cost.
But lowest price on something no one else could sell you is a great deal?



Good day all, Tay.

why is it that the French forces still do not use the TOPSIGHT/any HMD for their Rafales when Dassualt had already demonstrated it long back on the Rafale?

It was a monetary choice. Budgets dictate choices and some capacities
are possible without a given aid or not essential. Considering the Rafale
was found able to complete all its missions without an HMD, it was seen
as optional and not financed.

The FSO(/OSF) is in a similar case. Some components became obsolete
and and a slightly different tech solution was used in the follow-up. It could
still see changes too ( remember that the system can be changed in 30 to 90 mins ).
A newer version is possible.

On those, India could have ( played ) a card to play. A JV to produce the
systems exists for the TopSight and an OSF one could be had for the MII.*
If the Indian side produces at French standards and the French govt yields
to the necessity of either or both ( fingers crossed ), it could be co-financed.

But the details have not come out yet so let's be patient.
The most logical selection remains the uprated engines.

Good day Abingdon my friend and stay calm so as to stay here, Tay

* Although parts would be sourced at best!

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

An interesting thought but I couldn't comment on the validity of that brother.


+ @Taygibay @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil why is it that the French forces still do not use the TOPSIGHT/any HMD for their Rafales when Dassualt had already demonstrated it long back on the Rafale?

The DGA objective to agree on a HMD is for it to be below 1.3 kg. See problems with F-35 HMDS at ejection.

 

[Spectre]

The J-20 is a 5th gen plane only in the minds of the delusional fanboys. To expect China to have overtaken France is beyond absurd.

The Rafales will have the J-20/31 for breakfast.


@Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil

300 LCA
200+ Rafale
300+ MKI
200+ FGFA (long term)
300+ AMCA (long term)

This will be the best airforce in Asia.

I am sorry but no. China will have us beat handily due to the sheer economic muscle. The rate at which their R&D is yielding results will make them formidable in 10-15 year horizon. It is but logical as they spend more on R&D, more their tech will improve so much so that they will be at par with Europeans and Russians who can't match their resources in next decade. Only US will be able to maintain it's lead.

Combine this with the full freedom to produce fighters on the fly as needed and zero dependence on foreign supply chains will provide them with option to generate extreme war fighting resources approaching the Americans.

As much as i would like it, India is not there yet. May be after 2050 we can start gaining lost ground but for now 2050-2100 is the Chinese half century.

 

[Taygibay]

The DGA objective to agree on a HMD is for it to be below 1.3 kg.

Yes, thnx for adding the technical goal, Pic. It is sometimes hard to explain the DGA
to non-French mil fans. Essentially, the agency funds, participates in and develops,
defines, evaluates and tests and further foresees all mil projects for our armed forces.

It is the point where ideas, technology, military need and cash conflate.
These guys are my pick for unsung heroes for maintaining our autonomy.

And I'm sure our MinDef recognizes their worth too.

Good day, Tay.

 

[Spectre]

We still lack the 120 J-20s much less 500 although they could be there soon if LRIP goes well
but we also lack their concept of use by the PLAAF. For now, China is still lagging
on systems : engines, electronic and optronics. The value of these will impact
the tactics of PLAAF. And it is still a very big bird! Something a small bird of prey
flying closer to the ground can spot in contrast to the sky?

I think most J-20s will be guarding the East personally. Unless Putin grows nastier ...

Fair enough but it is realistic to assume that Chinese will catch up quickly in above fields and incorporate the gains in their top end fighters. While France is on sustainment mode, China is on an expansion spree and this resource mis-match gives me a pause when it comes to developmental path for Rafales vis a vis J-20

@Picdelamirand-oil

 

[Abingdonboy]

I am sorry but no. China will have us beat handily due to the sheer economic muscle. The rate at which their R&D is yielding results will make them formidable in 10-15 year horizon. It is but logical as they spend more on R&D, more their tech will improve so much so that they will be at par with Europeans and Russians who can't match their resources in next decade. Only US will be able to maintain it's lead.

Combine this with the full freedom to produce fighters on the fly as needed and zero dependence on foreign supply chains will provide them with option to generate extreme war fighting resources approaching the Americans.

As much as i would like it, India is not there yet. May be after 2050 we can start gaining lost ground but for now 2050-2100 is the Chinese half century.

The Chinese are having to go it alone (for one reason or another), India is in the fortunate position to be able to take assistance from global leaders (France, Israel, Russia and to an extent US). The Chinese are still 15-20 years behind the West today (if not more) and these nations aren't sitting still themselves. India can't match the Chinese in outright R&D muscle for the forseeable future but does that mean it has no chance? Not everything is to do with economic size- the Israelis, S.Koreans, French and Brits still create some world class (specialist) equipment that challenges even American equipment. India needs to leverage its size and openess to get a leg up on the Chinese, whilst they are learning by themselves India should learn from the best.

The J-20 won't be a match for the Rafale for the next 20 years, no matter what they may claim.

 

[Taygibay]

Fair enough but it is realistic to assume that Chinese will catch up quickly in above fields and incorporate the gains in their top end fighters. While France is on sustainment mode, China is on an expansion spree and this resource mis-match gives me a pause when it comes to developmental path for Rafales vis a vis J-20

That's more G-P than mil but quick answer before I go because it's you.

The tech head-start will prove decade long at minima. And while your view
of France as on sustainment mode can be backed, I differ and think that we
have an uncertainty overload hindering us at present but that this very French
attitude fluctuates and is likely to reverse soon. It may already have ... results pending.

As for the Rafale's development path, it is on track to 2018 and was cleared to
2022-25 by govt with an MLU prospective before 2030. Add to this the FCAS
to result at same date in a companion UCAV. All of which India can play on / in?

Now, no doubt that our Chinese friends can build 200 J-20S by then but to think
that they will overtake our knowledge in all areas and make a J-20 certain to flock
with/against a Rafale with its pair of VLO wingmen ... huh, say, requires vision I lack?

All the best to you and yours, Tay.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Fair enough but it is realistic to assume that Chinese will catch up quickly in above fields and incorporate the gains in their top end fighters. While France is on sustainment mode, China is on an expansion spree and this resource mis-match gives me a pause when it comes to developmental path for Rafales vis a vis J-20

@Picdelamirand-oil

The only thing I can say, is that France is not on sustainment mode concerning the Rafale developmental path .

 

[Spectre]

The Chinese are having to go it alone (for one reason or another), India is in the fortunate position to be able to take assistance from global leaders (France, Israel, Russia and to an extent US). The Chinese are still 15-20 years behind the West today (if not more) and these nations aren't sitting still themselves. India can't match the Chinese in outright R&D muscle for the forseeable future but does that mean it has no chance? Not everything is to do with economic size- the Israelis, S.Koreans, French and Brits still create some world class (specialist) equipment that challenges even American equipment. India needs to leverage its size and openess to get a leg up on the Chinese, whilst they are learning by themselves India should learn from the best.

The J-20 won't be a match for the Rafale for the next 20 years, no matter what they may claim.

1. Chinese have quite an open relationship with Russia with an unusual degree of carte blanche given to them when it comes to transfer of advanced Russian tech to China which they then mass produce. Look at their jets, missiles, boats, subs etc etc

2. China also has clandestine relationship when it comes to tech transfer with France and Israel which is often disguised as civilian tech but utilized in their military program or they utilize the expertise from third party sources like France or US supplying tech to Chinese Allies like Pakistan which they are able to access.

3. Europe is increasingly opening it's doors to China due to sustain their economy so it wont be an outreach to assume some defence cooperation in future as US retreats from it's role as net security provider.

4. China unlike we Indians have no scruples when it comes to stealing or illegally copying tech.

So your assumptions are questionable. The biggest advantage they have vis a vis India is the autonomy they enjoy when it comes to their supply chains and end use.

That's more G-P than mil but quick answer before I go because it's you.

The tech head-start will prove decade long at minima. And while your view
of France as on sustainment mode can be backed, I differ and think that we
have an uncertainty overload hindering us at present but that this very French
attitude fluctuates and is likely to reverse soon. It may already have ... results pending

As for the Rafale's development path, it is on track to 2018 and was cleared to
2022-25 by govt with an MLU prospective before 2030. Add to this the FCAS
to result at same date in a companion UCAV. All of which India can play on / in?

Now no doubt that our Chinese friends can build 200 J-20S by then. But to think
that they will overtake our knowledge in all areas and make a J-20 certain to flock
with/against a Rafale with a pair of VLO wingmen ... huh, say, requires vision I lack?

All the best to you and yours, Tay.

Always a pleasure to read your posts. I often unnecessarily quote you or tag you because your insights are a breath of fresh air.

 

[sathya]

Not negotiation tactics. It was just news crap. You think negotiations depend on news crap?

SecDef came here for much bigger issues.

Judging from today's news,

India is playing china with US, to resolve border issues.

 

[Oracle 33]

I am sorry but no. China will have us beat handily due to the sheer economic muscle. The rate at which their R&D is yielding results will make them formidable in 10-15 year horizon. It is but logical as they spend more on R&D, more their tech will improve so much so that they will be at par with Europeans and Russians who can't match their resources in next decade. Only US will be able to maintain it's lead.

Combine this with the full freedom to produce fighters on the fly as needed and zero dependence on foreign supply chains will provide them with option to generate extreme war fighting resources approaching the Americans.

As much as i would like it, India is not there yet. May be after 2050 we can start gaining lost ground but for now 2050-2100 is the Chinese half century.

Buddy today is 2016 who can say what the future holds? China is not doing too great in the economic front at the moment and you predicting the future? which is uncertain

 

[Spectre]

Buddy today is 2016 who can say what the future holds? China is not doing too great in the economic front at the moment and you predicting the future? which is uncertain

Economic indicators are quite clear on the front. I am not predicting anything but estimating.