India vying for air superiority

[SrNair]

And what exactly would we see appear in that timeframe, other than Mig-29K and Hal Tejas? A naval aircraft, yes? That can withstand the sea environment and can be used from the ski-jump of Vikramaditya and the new INS Vikrant? What aircraft exactly?


Show it to be operational. Pics, official statemements? Anything?

Can I show the pics of our nukes ?

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

Rafale on par with F-35, a generation ahead of F-16 jets: Eric Trappier

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...6-jets-eric-trappier/articleshow/54494005.cms

"I feel Rafale happened because of the confidence in the long partnership between India and France, between IAF and Dassault," said Eric Trappier.

The Rafale deal has been long in the making, with the NDA govt scrapping the original 2007 project and going for direct purchase of 36 Rafales. Dassault CEO Eric Trappier talked to TOI . Excerpts:

What does Rafale bring to India ?
The number one reason for the success (in the deal going through) is its capabilities. The aircraft's performance was evaluated by the skilled IAF in different conditions here (during the MMRCA project evaluation).It has the capability to do everything. It's a good air-to-air combat aircraft, a strike aircraft, a reconnaisance and intelligence aircraft. It is good for all types of missions designed for the French forces, including from aircraft carriers. This was totally in line with what IAF wanted.

You said the negotiations were tough. What are the advantages for India on the price front, or on the technology front?
The negotiations were really tough on the price. I will not say how much as that is part of the discussion between the two governments. This is an inter-government deal.As far as 50% offsets... they (India) have been able to get more from us.

I feel this happened because of the confidence in the long partnership between India and France, between IAF and Dassault. India is proud about the first (Dassault) fighters it acquired in 1953 and later, the Mirage-2000s. When you are speaking defence, you don't want to have just a good deal. You want a good plane. A good fighter, because this part of the world might sometimes be dangerous. You don't deal with security lightly .

Is there any reference to the Rafale being nuclear capable?
It is totally in line with the French definition and more than that, we have been developing specifications that were required by the IAF. But basically it is the same system as for France.

And the French Rafales are nuclear capable?
That is something specific to France.

There have been questions on the high costs. It is said India can buy three Russian Sukhois for one Rafale.

Yes, maybe Rafale is more expensive. But those who know about fighters also know that Rafale is much more capable than a Sukhoi... in terms of survivability and all combat roles. The Russian aircraft are good, no doubt.But when your air force will have the Rafale, they will be happy to have it in their inventory, just like the Mirage-2000s which are the backbone of IAF.

Rafale is more a competitor for the F-35. We are a generation ahead of the F 16.

How did the negotiations change with the current government taking office since the MMRCA project was deadlocked?
I think they (Modi government) took a decision to reduce the number of aircraft but go ahead with the deal. We want fighters to be delivered, you need a CCO (contract change order). It is this government that decided. They signed the deal. They made this deal a reality.

Do you think India will go in for more orders?

We will work on it. As a manufacturer I will like to sell more. But I am satisfied with this contract. We will work with our Indian colleagues to develop the local industry here.

What does this deal mean for the India-France strategic partnership?
It is between the governments. A strategic partnership is more than an aircraft deal. I can only comment on the aircraft. The partnership is at a political level, it is more than good, we are real partners.

What about the 50 per cent offsets condition... which are the areas that can be developed?
India is already a leading country in software. We would like to take advantage of this. It is time to develop equipment. It can be a success story. Dassault is at the top in digital processes. This is a must to address the worldwide market.

There are fears about India-France defence projects after the Scorpene data leak.

I am sure the leak is being investigated. About Dassault, I will say security is a very serious matter. We have protected ourselves but zero risk does not exist.

I stopped reading(the article on his interview) when he said Rafale is on par with the F35- seriously?

"Rafale is more a compeititor for the F35."

Really?

I guess India can forget about developing the PAKFA(unnecessary) then, since he is implying that Rafale could fullfill the role of a 5th generation jet.

 

[Penguin]

Can I show the pics of our nukes ?

No, but there are official statement or at least reports from reliable institutions. To this point, I see no attempt even to substantiate a claim you make.

 

[SrNair]

No, but there are official statement or at least reports from reliable institutions. To this point, I see no attempt even to substantiate a claim you make.

Reports are also there in this case of the K 100.
But noone knows the current stance except IAF.

 

[Penguin]

Reports are also there in this case of the K 100.
But noone knows the current stance except IAF.

If they are there, what is the problem? Why aren't you referring to them then, so all can enjoy seeing/reading them. Particularly anything beyond MAKS 2007 would be of much interest.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

...
Pakistan also requires retiring its old aircrafts and replacing them with the modern planes. As Pakistan can no longer rely on the supply of F-16s from the US following the blockage of sale deal by the Congress, Pakistan needs to quickly exploit other viable options. One such option is purchase of the mighty SU-35 for which Pakistan is already in negotiations with Russia. While French planes such as Rafale are very expensive, the Russians are not and they are equally good. Comparison between Rafale and Su-35 clearly reveals that the latter is not only cheaper but far better in manoeuvrability than the former. Pakistan should speed up the process of negotiations with Moscow in order to ensure early realization of the deal on twin engine Su-35. In addition, the large-scale defence collaboration with China has always remained a great source of strength for us. We should further enhance this collaboration and work with Chinese friends actively to turn JF-17 thunder fighter jet into a truly modern aircraft to indigenously meet defence requirements of the country.


http://pakobserver.net/india-vying-for-air-superiority/

This is also not half as bad, given that the fly away cost of F-18SH is 65 million, and Gripen E is 82 million. @PARIKRAMA What's your take?

Flyaway cost for the Swedish Air Force is estimated to $72M.

 

[Basel]

Can I show the pics of our nukes ?

Please show all of your nukes, who is scared of your nukes? There is a time when one has to die, if it's like a martyr for country ten it will be honor. But nothing will left in India too dear.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Thusfar just the forthcoming Rafales will have the 100+km Meteor (so not there yet), and while India looking into integrating Meteor into Su-30, that too isn't quite a reality just yet. The 110km Astra is still in PreProduction/Testing.

PAF currently operates the 105+ km AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM on its its 18 F-16C/D Block 50/52+ and 45 F-16A/B Block 15 MLU fighters. Who knows, in future it may acquire the 160km+ AIM-120D (C-8)...

The 105+ km of the AMRAAM and the 100+ km of the Meteor are really not equivalent,
since the kill probability of the AMRAAM drops much faster as you approach the limit.

 

[Penguin]

The 105+ km of the AMRAAM and the 100+ km of the Meteor are really not equivalent, since the kill probability of the AMRAAM drops much faster as you approach the limit.

Agree. What is using the ESSM motor section mated to the AIM-120 seekerhead?

 

[Ultima Thule]

Then why PAF didnt had intervened in kargil conflict with their Aim 120c-5??

PAF had no BVRAAM at that time

So you think our AF dont have k100?
I dont think so

No it is not confirmed by either Russian or Indian source and it's for non maneuvering big target like Tankers, AWACS, Transport not fighter jet

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Agree. What is using the ESSM motor section mated to the AIM-120 seekerhead?

Only seen that in discussions about SAM batteries.
Not as an air-to-air missile.

 

[Penguin]

Only seen that in discussions about SAM batteries.
Not as an air-to-air missile.

Such a missile would be heavier and fatter, but not longer than AMRAAM.

AIM-120 AMRAAM
Weight 335 lb (152 kg)
Length 12 ft (3.7 m)
Diameter 7 in (180 mm)
Wingspan 20.7 in (530 mm)

RIM-162 ESSM
Weight 620 lb (280 kg)
Length 12 ft (3.66 m)
Diameter 10 in (254 mm)

Not quite as large as e.g. AIM-54 Phoenix though

Phoenix
Weight 1,000–1,040 lb (450–470 kg)
Length 13 ft (4.0 m)
Diameter 15 in (380 mm)
Wingspan 3 ft (910 mm)

It would be similar conceptually to RIM-175 Standard SM-6 / ERAM (which is SM-2ER mated with an upsized AIM-120 seeker).

SM-6 (VL)
Weight 3,300 lb (1,500 kg)
Length 21.5 ft (6.6 m)
Diameter 21 in (0.53 m) max.
Wingspan 61.8 in (1.57 m)

And even a missile as big as SM-6 could easily be air launched. See AGM-78 Standard ARM. This was carried by missile was carried by the F-105F/G Thunderchief and the A-6B/E Intruder aircraft.

Standard ARM
Weight 620 kg (1370 lb)
Length 4.57 m (15 ft)
Diameter 34.3 cm (13.5 in)
Wingspan 108 cm (42.5 in)

Standard ARM was replaced in 1980s by AGM-88 HARM

HARM
Weight 355 kilograms (783 lb)
Length 4.1 metres (13 ft)
Diameter 254 millimetres (10.0 in)
Wingspan 1.1 metres (3.6 ft)

AMRAAM-ER as the ESSM/AMRAAM hybrid is called is very close to HARM dimensionally but lighter. HARM was integrated onto the F/A-18C/D, F/A-18E/F, EA-18G, F-16 and Tornado ECR aircraft and F-35. So, I don't see a lot of trouble mating AMRAAM-ER to a fighter.
https://www.orbitalatk.com/defense-systems/defense-electronic-systems/aargm/

Incidentally, the US Navy's FY 2016 budget included funding for an extended range AARGM-ER that utilizes the existing guidance system and warhead of the AGM-88E with a solid integrated rocket-ramjet for double the range. Development funding will last to 2020. The AARGM can be integrated on the FA-18 C/D, FA-18 E/F, EA-18 G, and Tornado ECR aircraft. It is also compatible with the F-35, EA-6B, and F-16 aircraft.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/agm-88e-advanced-anti-radiation-guided-missile-aargm/

I'm sure, if Raytheon can succesfully mate the AIM-120 seekerhead to the Standard SM2 (> SM-6) and ESSM missiles (> SL-AMRAAM-ER), they could also mate it to the rocket motor section of the AARGM-ER right quickly in future, should the need arise. This would yield a missile very, very similar to Meteor....

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Such a missile would be heavier and fatter, but not longer than AMRAAM.

AIM-120 AMRAAM
Weight 335 lb (152 kg)
Length 12 ft (3.7 m)
Diameter 7 in (180 mm)
Wingspan 20.7 in (530 mm)

RIM-162 ESSM
Weight 620 lb (280 kg)
Length 12 ft (3.66 m)
Diameter 10 in (254 mm)

Not quite as large as e.g. AIM-54 Phoenix though

Phoenix
Weight 1,000–1,040 lb (450–470 kg)
Length 13 ft (4.0 m)
Diameter 15 in (380 mm)
Wingspan 3 ft (910 mm)

It would be similar conceptually to RIM-175 Standard SM-6 / ERAM (which is SM-2ER mated with an upsized AIM-120 seeker).

SM-6 (VL)
Weight 3,300 lb (1,500 kg)
Length 21.5 ft (6.6 m)
Diameter 21 in (0.53 m) max.
Wingspan 61.8 in (1.57 m)

And even a missile as big as SM-6 could easily be air launched. See AGM-78 Standard ARM. This was carried by missile was carried by the F-105F/G Thunderchief and the A-6B/E Intruder aircraft.

Standard ARM
Weight 620 kg (1370 lb)
Length 4.57 m (15 ft)
Diameter 34.3 cm (13.5 in)
Wingspan 108 cm (42.5 in)

Standard ARM was replaced in 1980s by AGM-88 HARM

HARM
Weight 355 kilograms (783 lb)
Length 4.1 metres (13 ft)
Diameter 254 millimetres (10.0 in)
Wingspan 1.1 metres (3.6 ft)

AMRAAM-ER as the ESSM/AMRAAM hybrid is called is very close to HARM dimensionally but lighter. HARM was integrated onto the F/A-18C/D, F/A-18E/F, EA-18G, F-16 and Tornado ECR aircraft and F-35. So, I don't see a lot of trouble mating AMRAAM-ER to a fighter.
https://www.orbitalatk.com/defense-systems/defense-electronic-systems/aargm/

Incidentally, the US Navy's FY 2016 budget included funding for an extended range AARGM-ER that utilizes the existing guidance system and warhead of the AGM-88E with a solid integrated rocket-ramjet for double the range. Development funding will last to 2020. The AARGM can be integrated on the FA-18 C/D, FA-18 E/F, EA-18 G, and Tornado ECR aircraft. It is also compatible with the F-35, EA-6B, and F-16 aircraft.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/agm-88e-advanced-anti-radiation-guided-missile-aargm/

I'm sure, if Raytheon can succesfully mate the AIM-120 seekerhead to the Standard SM2 (> SM-6) and ESSM missiles (> SL-AMRAAM-ER), they could also mate it to the rocket motor section of the AARGM-ER right quickly in future, should the need arise. This would yield a missile very, very similar to Meteor....

I think the USAF is looking for smaller missiles, so they can get more into the F-35 internal bay.
If they want Meteor like performance, why not buy Meteors...

 

[Penguin]

I think the USAF is looking for smaller missiles, so they can get more into the F-35 internal bay.
If they want Meteor like performance, why not buy Meteors...

My, buy European? What an idea. They'll see us in court first, claiming illegal subsidization .... [roll eyes]

Just saying what's possible, if US perceived Meteor or similar to be a problem.

AAAM Concept by Hughes/Raytheon/McDonnell Douglas at the top, GD/Westinghouse at the bottom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-152_AAAM

Doesn't the second concept look like a mini-ESSM?

 

[RPK]

And what exactly would we see appear in that timeframe, other than Mig-29K and Hal Tejas? A naval aircraft, yes? That can withstand the sea environment and can be used from the ski-jump of Vikramaditya and the new INS Vikrant? What aircraft exactly?

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]