India vying for air superiority

[raj76]

Block 3 JF-17 should be coming into the picture soon. That will make it on par with Rafales



i guess China would have to tremble in fear then

there are other ways to loose credibility but this comment just nuked urs

 

[Penguin]

Naval aviation does not means all borne from the Carrier. In the Indian case in the regional areas, they could also be deployed over the Naval airbases. So how about Jaguar IM, Su-30 MKI for Naval Strike, Rafale-M, Mig 29 K, and LCA Mk-2.

You failed to follow the discussion, which was started by someone saying/claiming that Indian naval aviation (by itself) would handle PAF, leaving Indian air force free to do other things. See post #9 then #20.

So that means 33+12 Mig 29K, eventually 36 Hal Tejas (first 6 ordered, total 36 planned, Tejas is yet to enter Naval Air Arm service) and - speculated, hypothesized - some number of Naval Aviation Rafales (besides those few just ordered in limited number for air force) VERSUS current PAFs 76 F-16 (13 A/B, 45 AM/BM, 18 C/D), 90 JF-17, 75 Mirage 3, 82 Mirage 5 and 184 Shenyang F-7 (Mig 21). With JF17 numbers increasing and Mirage and Shenyang decreasing over time.

That simply is BS.

Current indian naval aviation consists of

• Boeing P-8 Poseidon
• Dornier Do 228
• HAL HPT-32 Deepak
• HAL Kiran
• Ilyushin Il-38
• Mikoyan MiG-29K
• Tupolev Tu-142
• BAE Systems Hawk

Jaguar, SU-30 etc are air force.

 

[Vyom]

Yes, really. If EriEye is good enough for the Swedes (against Russians), it is good enough for PAF. Likewise, ZDK-03. It is not that IAFs Berievs A50 with Israely radars are somehow magical.

BS. AWACS increases effectiveness of any airforce, and it would border on criminal to not use such a capability when available. Also, I was talking about offensive air operations of IAF, and therefor defences operations by PAF. And no, India really cannot just concentrate all it has on one spot (e.g. Pakistan), as that would leave its Northern (air) frontier, Arabian sea and Bay of Bengal/Andaman sea approaches uncovered and vulnerable, to attack by opportunists or Pakistani allies.

Well, since you are so convinced. about ZDK 03 it's really pointless to debate. And you are overselling Erieye Horizon. and Pakistani Allies bit got me almost to fall of my chair. yes awacs makes any AF better, like any Augmentation. but that i presume wont make any difference to the eventual outcome. BBye

 

[wiseone2]

Pakistan possesses more AWACS as compared to India, in total 7 of them, a mixture of Swedish and Chinese AWACS.

chinese and Swedish AWCAS are not integrated with PAF F-16s
they never will

 

[Penguin]

Well, since you are so convinced. about ZDK 03 it's really pointless to debate. And you are overselling Erieye Horizon. and Pakistani Allies bit got me almost to fall of my chair. yes awacs makes any AF better, like any Augmentation. but that i presume wont make any difference to the eventual outcome. BBye

If you claim something is junk, you show/explain why it is junk.

The following are Erieye users.

• Brazil (no other AEW system in use)
  
• Greece (no other AEW system in use)
  
• Mexico (no other AEW system in use)
  
• Pakistan (with ZDK-08)
  
• Saudi Arabia (with Boeing E-3)
  
• Sweden (no other AEW system in use)
  
• Thailand (no other AEW system in use)
  
• United Arab Emirates - 2 on order

I haven't seen any (reports of) Erieye users returning their aircraft or complaining about how poor they perform.

As for ZDK-08, Pakistan is the only user thus far. So, hard to tell.

ANYWAY, I've not oversold either EriEye or ZDK03, I've only indicated how many there are in relation to the area that they are expected to cover. I am convinced Pakistan has AEW(&C) aircraft, just as India has some. The DRDO AEW&CS is quite similar to Erieye, and meant as less capable, cheaper domestic supplement to the Beriev A50EI's

 

[Penguin]

chinese and Swedish AWCAS are not integrated with PAF F-16s
they never will

Please explain what exactly you mean by that.

The Hellenic AF and UAE use F-16 with EriEye (and they have no Gripens). Thailand and Brazil both use Gripen, but it would seem very unlikely that their EriEye would only work with their Gripens, and not with e.g. F-5 (both countries) and F-16 (Thailand). Afaik all you need is compatible communications gear (radio and data link). It would be silly to develop an AEW system that can only work if all your air forces' aircraft are also modified.Smart would be to tailor the comms in your EriEye to the comms in your combat aircraft.

ErieyeCommunications (CoM)
• Extensive voice communication suite tailored to customer requirements including HF, VHF and UHF
• Real-time in-house data link dedicated for AEW&C or NATO Link 16 and Link11
• Sat Com
http://saab.com/globalassets/publications-pdfs/eds/radar/airborne/erieye_en_2013.pdf.

In 2010 Pakistan also joined the F-16 MLU group. It decided to upgrade 35 of its older block 15 airframes with an option for another 10. The first airframe to be converted was test flown in November of 2011 with initial work being performed by Lockheed, while the remainder of the fleet is to be upgraded by TAI in Ankara, Turkey.
The Improved Data Modem (IDM), developed by the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory and built by Symetrics Inc., will be used to exchange data of various systems and targets with other aircraft (e.g. F-16, A-10, AH-64 or E-8 JSTARS) or with a ground station. Provisions have been made for the Link 16 Joint Tactical Information Distribution System (JTIDS).
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article2.html

The IDM (now standard on the Block 50/52 and MLU aircraft) allows the aircraft to receive latitude, longitude and elevation of a target direct from a FAC (Forward Air Controller) on the ground. The system then inputs the data into the weapon system computer and displays it as a waypoint on the HUD.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article7.html

IDM http://www.pxi.com/project_idm.php
IDMs http://extantaerospace.com/military.php
specifically http://extantaerospace.com/products/IDM-302.pdf
and http://extantaerospace.com/products/IDM-501.pdf

The Erieye AEW&C mission system radar is an active, phased-array, pulse-doppler sensor that can feed an onboard operator architecture or downlink data (via an associated datalink subsystem) to a ground-based air defence network.

Should the AEW aircraft be unable to communicate or link to other aircraft directly, due e.g. to incompatible communications systems, one can always send data to a groundstation for relay.

Also I would find it odd if a Chinese developed AEW system couldn't at least work with a Chinese develop fighter (JF17), whose performance roughly matches that of the F-16, at half the cost. Regarding JF-17, it is said "The communication systems comprise two VHF/UHF radios; the VHF radio has the capacity for data linking for communication with ground control centres, airborne early warning and control aircraft and combat aircraft with compatible data links for network-centric warfare, and improved situation awareness" See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC/PAC_JF-17_Thunder#Avionics and link to source document there.
Also here: https://books.google.nl/books?id=CY...AEIcDAN#v=onepage&q="jf-17" data link&f=false

 

[Penguin]

“Link-17” – Pakistan’s homegrown data-link system
05 April 2016

By Bilal Khan

Link-17 has given the PAF a network protocol that it can use with a wide range of aerial assets, especially domestically driven programs, such as the JF-17 Thunder. The tactical operational benefits are certainly present. As with any modern TDL, the JF-17 (as well as the Mirage ROSE) can utilize the extended range air surveillance coverage offered by the radars on-board the Erieye and Karakoram Eagle AEW&C platforms, which in turn can open up a number of advantageous tactical scenarios.

http://quwa.org/2016/04/05/link-17-pakistans-homegrown-data-link-system/

Analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank says the Karakorum Eagle's mission is "asically the same job as Erieye but based in southern sector.

"To cover all the length of Pakistan we needed additional AEW&C aircraft and ZDK-03 was the answer due to political and financial considerations," he said.

Former Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail says the PAF was not keen on their purchase.

"The [Karakorum] Eagle was purchased rather reluctantly, under pressure of [then President] Gen. Musharraf, as a political expedient [Chinese appeasement], and not because of any reasons of technical superiority," he said. "It would have been more cost effective to manage a single type than these two vastly different ones."

Though he now believes attitudes have changed.

"Having said that, the performance of the Eagle has turned out to be surprisingly good, which takes some sting out of the initial criticism," he said.

Tufail says an absence of news of the fourth aircraft being delivered may mean it is undergoing installation of Link 16 datalink equipment to enable it to communicate with all of the PAF's aircraft, particularly its F-16s, and not just the JF-17 Thunders.

To date the Erieye AEW&C aircraft have been able to communicate with the Western aircraft in service such as the F-16, and the Karakorum Eagle with the Chinese aircraft such as the Sino-Pak JF-17, and perhaps the F-7PG.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ips-squadron-with-new-aewc-aircraft/24140709/

While the Erieye's will datalink the F-16's, they will not be able to do so with the Mirage fleet. The first Erieye will be delivered in 2009, followed by the remainder by 2011. The Chinese origin fighter aircraft will have AEW&C support from the planned acquisition of 4 ZDK-03 (Chinese Y-8 AWACS). The ZDK-03 contract was close to be being finalised for the required 4 aircraft.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/air-force-modernization.htm

 

[wiseone2]

If you claim something is junk, you show/explain why it is junk.

The following are Erieye users.

• Brazil (no other AEW system in use)
  
• Greece (no other AEW system in use)
  
• Mexico (no other AEW system in use)
  
• Pakistan (with ZDK-08)
  
• Saudi Arabia (with Boeing E-3)
  
• Sweden (no other AEW system in use)
  
• Thailand (no other AEW system in use)
  
• United Arab Emirates - 2 on order

I am a skeptic on ERIEYE as a full blown AWACS for combat situations.

Sweden is going to buy home grown technology.

Mexico, Brazil, Thailand are not looking to fight wars. they are using Erieye for airborne surveillance which is a little different from AWACS in active combat. All of them are friendly with USA if they wanted an American AWACS.

Looking from media clippings it looks like Saudi Arabia and UAE bought the Erieye for airborne surveillance

The question is how well Greece and Pakistan air forces evaluated Erieye for combat scenarios.
In case of PAF there was not much option for any alternative system. Unless you call the Chinese ZDK system as an alternative.

http://quwa.org/2016/04/05/link-17-pakistans-homegrown-data-link-system/


http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ips-squadron-with-new-aewc-aircraft/24140709/


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/air-force-modernization.htm

can you install it on PAF f-16 ?

 

[Penguin]

can you install it on PAF f-16 ?

I'm assuming you are talking about 'Link 17'? I don't see why not. F16 and Erieye as well as JF17 and ZDK-03 are apparently able to communicate using data link 'as is'.So, the domestic 'link 17' TDL can sure help communication between these two sets.

 

[wiseone2]

I'm assuming you are talking about 'Link 17'? I don't see why not. F16 and Erieye as well as JF17 and ZDK-03 are apparently able to communicate using data link 'as is'.So, the domestic 'link 17' TDL can sure help communication between these two sets.

i know the PAF would like to. Would Uncle Sam allow it ?

 

[Alphacharlie]

You failed to follow the discussion, which was started by someone saying/claiming that Indian naval aviation (by itself) would handle PAF, leaving Indian air force free to do other things. See post #9 then #20.

So that means 33+12 Mig 29K, eventually 36 Hal Tejas (first 6 ordered, total 36 planned, Tejas is yet to enter Naval Air Arm service) and - speculated, hypothesized - some number of Naval Aviation Rafales (besides those few just ordered in limited number for air force) VERSUS current PAFs 76 F-16 (13 A/B, 45 AM/BM, 18 C/D), 90 JF-17, 75 Mirage 3, 82 Mirage 5 and 184 Shenyang F-7 (Mig 21). With JF17 numbers increasing and Mirage and Shenyang decreasing over time.

That simply is BS.

Current indian naval aviation consists of

• Boeing P-8 Poseidon
• Dornier Do 228
• HAL HPT-32 Deepak
• HAL Kiran
• Ilyushin Il-38
• Mikoyan MiG-29K
• Tupolev Tu-142
• BAE Systems Hawk

Jaguar, SU-30 etc are air force.

Penguin -- Your posts are showing you have started to Act Cocky.

Get your Facts Right Indian Navy Dont have HPT 32 any more (dusted)

Zebra Meant Land Bases will be used to Attack 1 Sqn of Su 30 IAF is Dedicated for Naval Role + 1 Sqn of Jag --

 

[Indian Jatt]

i guess China would have to tremble in fear then

oh i forgot to tell you that "Start Trembling"!!!!

 

[illuminatidinesh]

Current indian naval aviation consists of

• Boeing P-8 Poseidon
• Dornier Do 228
• HAL HPT-32 Deepak
• HAL Kiran
• Ilyushin Il-38
• Mikoyan MiG-29K
• Tupolev Tu-142
• BAE Systems Hawk

Jaguar, SU-30 etc are air force.

Jaguar and Su 30 do have Maritime strike role but yes u are right there is no evidence its operated by IN, they are purely IAF.
I agree with you IN take on PAF is fanboy statement, besides IN aviation has other roles than fighting only PAF.

And Penguin I have a hypothetical question to u?
1. U mentioned Indian geographic map to point out the gaps in AWACS coverage, Do u think IAF would be dispersing its AWACS units to southern parts in case of war?

 

[IblinI]

Indian Navy will take care of PAF in near future. Air force only for China

Then i should say Chinese navy will take care of IAF in near future.Air force only for USA.

 

[Penguin]

i know the PAF would like to. Would Uncle Sam allow it ?

I don't see how they can stop it.

Penguin -- Your posts are showing you have started to Act Cocky.

I humbly apologize. Happy now?

Get your Facts Right Indian Navy Dont have HPT 32 any more (dusted)

The relevant facts are correct: no Jaguars and Su-30s in Indian naval avation. Which was the point.

Zebra Meant Land Bases will be used to Attack 1 Sqn of Su 30 IAF is Dedicated for Naval Role + 1 Sqn of Jag --

That may be, but I have explained how this discussion came about. So, if someone says "IN naval avation will take care or entire PAF" they are NOT talking air force. There is only 1 squadron Jaguar IM (maritime attack) in IAF service and I don't see how these naval strike aircraft (with 2 Magic AAM and Sea Eagle antiship missiles and an Agave radar capable of air-to-air operations but optimised for maritime air-to-surface operations) would be much added capability in taking out PAF. In a sense, this also applies to a dedicated naval strike squadron of Su-30MKI: how would this naval strike capability help against PAF? So, how are they any different from other Su-30 squadrons of the IAF. Are they in fact intended to be used against PAF?

How about your own cockiness?

Jaguar and Su 30 do have Maritime strike role but yes u are right there is no evidence its operated by IN, they are purely IAF.
I agree with you IN take on PAF is fanboy statement, besides IN aviation has other roles than fighting only PAF.

And Penguin I have a hypothetical question to u?
1. U mentioned Indian geographic map to point out the gaps in AWACS coverage, Do u think IAF would be dispersing its AWACS units to southern parts in case of war?

The radar range is over 320km (probably around 379km) so when in the air, it will have to either stay and cover a sector (defensive role) this bit or move closer to the border to start covering area across the border, deeper in opfor territory. This means it will have to be escorted.

To avoid being attacked on the ground, one might base outside of PAF effective strike range (but that gets difficult when dealing with tactical ballistic missiles). The farther away they are based from the border, the more aircraft you need to keep up 1 in the air on patrol at all time (an 4-5 aircraft is about the minimum needed to do this). Dispersing across multiple bases lowers the lucky strike factor, but requires multiple bases to be capable of handling, maintaining not just the aircraft but also the radar and electronics. That may be challenging from a logistical point of view.