India vs Pakistan Artillery comparison

[WaLeEdK2]

First picture is from 2008 or earlier.
Second one is also several years old.


First picture is from 2008 or earlier.
Second one is also several years old.

How would you know if Pakistan retired these? Lol

 

[Tipu7]

I can read Minds of Bharti Buniyas

How would you know if Pakistan retired these? Lol
View attachment 372464

 

[niaz]

I can quote figure from the Military Balance 2016 as published by the International Institute of Strategic studies.

Pakistan.

Total Artillery: 4472. Taking MRL & Mortars out leaves us with only 2,034.

60 230 mm, 637 155mm, 570 122mm, 430 130mm and the balance 105 mm.

India.

Total 9, 682. Excluding MRL & Mortars leaves 2970 Field artillery pieces. Out of these 1350 are 105 mm, 520 122mm, 600 130mm, 500 155mm.

This kind of post reminds me of the Cold War era News reports & assessment by CIA and some think tanks funded by the US Defence Industry exaggerating Soviet Union war capabilities. Sole purpose of the reports was to get Congress to approval bigger and bigger Defence Budget allocation. IMHO this post is only meant for the Indian public.

 

[Robinhood Pandey]

Sole purpose of the reports was to get Congress to approval bigger and bigger Defence Budget allocation. IMHO this post is only meant for the Indian public.

Sir, In that case u also have to add time to time incursions by " Chinese " Army . "hundreds " of Kilometers inside our territory

and increasing Chinese subs presence in the IOR and So on

 

[Dazzler]

First picture is from 2008 or earlier.
Second one is also several years old.


First picture is from 2008 or earlier.
Second one is also several years old.

it's from 2016 wierdo

No, we are not replacing them.
Serbian Nora & South African Danel T5-52 are new additions meant for North Punjab & Kashmir sector. (One will be selected)

Show them latest pics from past year parade.
Other wise they say that you are showing old stuff

View attachment 372463



I know. I wanted to know about status of Panter.

Panthers are and likely to remain in service for a while

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Provide a source for M109 upgrade

Since when did Pak retire M109A2? rather upgraded them.. source? my father's regiment has em..

 

[Khafee]

Provide a source for M109 upgrade

If @Zarvan or @DESERT FIGHTER said it happened, it happened.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Since when did Pak retire M109A2? rather upgraded them.. source? my father's regiment has em..

he will ask for your Father's Badge number , unit number , Uniform Measurements , Car license number , and ATM and Bank Account number with latest selfies, or else these Bharties wont believe you .

( mean no disrespect to your brave Father, just to show how stupid their Arguments can be )

 

[Rocky rock]

Provide a source for M109 upgrade

Pakistan: 150+ A2 in service with the Pakistan Army. Being Upgraded to M109A5 standard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M109_howitzer

 

[Khafee]

@Dazzler @Tipu7 @DESERT FIGHTER @Zarvan

Do the 8 inchers use ammo, whose range exceeds 30kms?

 

[niaz]

Sir, In that case u also have to add time to time incursions by " Chinese " Army . "hundreds " of Kilometers inside our territory

and increasing Chinese subs presence in the IOR and So on

Hon Sir,

You may have noticed that I am not in the habit of India bashing nor do I insult Indian forum members. This is a discussion about a report which; according to my understanding; is trying to portray that Indian Army has less capability than Pakistan Army in the artillery.

I have quoted the figures from the ‘Military Balance 2016’. According to these excluding the Mortars & MRLSs; India has 936 more artillery pieces. Total guns including the mortars & MRL with the Indian army exceed Pakistan’s army's number by 5,210. Indian 2015 allocation for Defence according to the same publication was $48-billion versus Pakistani Defence budget of $7.18 billion.

In Conclusion the report says:

Quote

“The Pakistani Heavy and Medium gun combined strength will at around 1800-2000 guns if the current induction programs remain on schedule. To maintain a conventional edge against Pakistan the army will need at least 6000 guns, since a significant amount of Artils will also be deployed on the Chinese front”

Unquote

If the author was comparing India with China (Defence Budget of $146-billion and 13,178 artillery pieces including mortars and MRLs). I would consider the article perfectly justified. However the author knows that with total India-China trade volume of more $70-billion with about $50-billion in China’s favor, possibility of China attacking India in the near future is highly unlikely. Therefore the author is asking for 6,000 guns using Pakistan as the perceived enemy.

Is this not “Scare mongering” then what is it?

India being a sovereign country I have no problem if she decides to spend $100-billion on defence or accumulate 10,000 artillery pieces in her arsenal. My objection is “Why use Pakistan as an example when Indian arsenal is already far more than Pakistan’s?”.

However I would not blame you to think otherwise.

 

[Signalian]

I can quote figure from the Military Balance 2016 as published by the International Institute of Strategic studies.

Pakistan.

Total Artillery: 4472. Taking MRL & Mortars out leaves us with only 2,034.

60 230 mm, 637 155mm, 570 122mm, 430 130mm and the balance 105 mm.

India.

Total 9, 682. Excluding MRL & Mortars leaves 2970 Field artillery pieces. Out of these 1350 are 105 mm, 520 122mm, 600 130mm, 500 155mm.

This kind of post reminds me of the Cold War era News reports & assessment by CIA and some think tanks funded by the US Defence Industry exaggerating Soviet Union war capabilities. Sole purpose of the reports was to get Congress to approval bigger and bigger Defence Budget allocation. IMHO this post is only meant for the Indian public.

203mm..probably 40 SP.

@Dazzler @Tipu7 @DESERT FIGHTER @Zarvan

Do the 8 inchers use ammo, whose range exceeds 30kms?

there was a video covered by wajahat about the recent exercise involving Z-10 ,PM was also there.
The range is mentioned by a soldier in that video.

 

[Rocky rock]

155mm
Panter Howitzer

155mm SPH M-109A2/A5 upgraded.

122mm D-30 Howtizer

155mm M-198 howitzer

155mm SPH M-109A5

M-115 203 mm howitzer

203MM M110A2

130mm M-46

 

[Signalian]

Comparison of India and Pakistan artillery


Total Strength of Indian towed artillery – 4150

Of which

Heavy Artillery – 480
Medium Artillery – 1270
Light Artillery – 2400

Total strength of Pakistani Towed Artillery – 3278

Of which

Heavy Artillery – 422
Medium Artillery – 1243
Light Artillery – 1613

Total Indian Towed Artllery strength stands at 4150 vs Pakistan’s 3278, on paper that is, in reality however, India’s fleet of S-23 180mm and D-30 122mm are retired or are currently in the process of being retired as state run OFB no longer manufactures the required Ammunition used in these guns. Actual Strength of Indian towed artillery is 3500 vs Pakistan’s 3278, this doesn’t look like a great scenario for a nation which wants to maintain a conventional firepower superiority against its main regional rival. Pakistan can bring the full might of its 3,278 strong artillery force while India will have to divide artillery between the Chinese and Pakistani borders to prevent any misadventure by either power.


Heavy Artillery

While India’s heavy guns, 203 mm, are out of action Pakistan fields a few dozen of 203mm gun as POF manufactures the required ammunition that are used in these guns.

On the 155mm front Indian army has failed to achieve a significant edge over its Pakistani counterpart.



India posses a total of 380 155mm guns compared to 394 155mm Guns of Pakistan. What’s interesting is that India originally acquired a grand total of 410 155 FH77/B guns from Swedish defense giant Bofors along with adequate tech transfer, but only 200 of them survive. The reason why India lost more than half of the FH77/B 155mm fleet was due to cannibalization of a large number of guns in order to obtain critical spare parts to run the remaining fleet. This clearly points out the inability of state run OFB to indigenize the Bofors gun and how Nehru-Gandhi corruption damaged India’s defense preparedness. The 155mm M-46 fleet, upgraded by Soltam-OFB, has stood the test of the time and is one of the most reliable artillery guns in India’s arsenal.

Pakistan will continue to enjoy a numerical advantage over India as far the 155mm class of artilery is considered as the Induction of homegrown “Dhanush” gun is slow and other major artillery programs are well behind schedule while Pakistan based Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) produces 30+ MKEK Panter 155mm guns a year with technology transfer from Turkey.

Medium Artillery


India has always maintained an edge against Pakistan in the medium artillery department, but as of today the Indian army has decommissioned all of it’s 122mm guns, In light of this development Indian army has fallen far behind against Pakistani counterpart in the Medium Artils department. As of today India has about 720 M46 130mm medium guns left in service, whereas Pakistan’s 130mm M46 clones and 122 mm variants stand at a staggering 1,243 guns, 523 guns more than India.



Pakistan will continue to expand its lead over India in Medium Artilery as the remaining M46 130mm guns are converted to 155mm standard and there are no plan to induct new guns in the Medium artillery segment.

at the top levels of government &the ministry of defense and incompetent defense ministers are some of the reasons why Indian Artils are in such a bad shape. New Delhi needs to move fast as half of the medium artillery has been retired, and more than half of the Bofors 155mm fleet has been cannibalized in search of spare parts, both the Army and the Government need to expedite the process of acquiring new Artillery . Success story of the 105mm light Artillery has already set the precedence for Indian Army to follow local production of artillery system to be replicated in the 155mm category.

Light Artillery

Light Artillery is the only area where Indian army possess a clear edge over its Pakistani counterpart. India possess over 2400 Light guns as compared to Pakistan’s 1643 guns. The Indian light artillery is entirely made up of homegrown guns, this has resulted in high rates of availability and most of the fleet remaining intact over the years, unlike what happened to the FH77/B 155mm fleet of guns.

Light Artillery is an area where the Indian army completely outclasses its Pakistani counterpart in Range,Quantity and Quality. The success of Indian light Artils demonstrates the importance of a domestic Military Industrial complex able to supply adequate equipment to the security forces.


Conclusion

New Delhi’s Artillery Force is in a very bad shape, Bureaucratic delays, unrealistic GSQRs set by the army, corruption at the top levels of government &the ministry of defense and incompetent defense ministers are some of the reasons why Indian Artils are in such a bad shape. New Delhi needs to move fast as half of the medium artillery has been retired, and more than half of the Bofors 155mm fleet has been cannibalized in search of spare parts, both the Army and the Government need to expedite the process of acquiring new Artillery . Success story of the 105mm light Artillery has already set the precedence for Indian Army to follow local production of artillery system to be replicated in the 155mm category.

The Pakistani Heavy and Medium gun combined strength will at around 1800-2000 guns if the current induction programs remain on schedule. To maintain a conventional edge against Pakistan the army will need at least 6000 guns, since a significant amount of Artils will also be deployed on the Chinese front.

Indian army’s Artil force is in a very bad shape, on the medium artillery front half of our fleet of medium guns are out of action due to our inability to produce the required ammunition, as far as the 155mm is concerned more than half of the FH77/B 155mm fleet has been cannibalized to obtain critical spareparts in order to keep the rest of Bofors fleet operational. The Indian Army needs to induct thousands of new guns if it wants to obtain any kind of edge over its Pakistani counterpart. India’s ability to successfully develop, manufacture, maintain and upgrade its own 105mm light artillery guns should encourage the army to develop in house solutions in the 155mm category, systems like DRDO ATAGS, OFB Dhanush will play a very important role in the modernization of Indian Artillery.


Self propelled

Self Propelled Artil platform comes with its own propulsion system. They are equipped with guns of a usually higher caliber than tanks, most have 155mm, but are positioned on a higher angle for bombardment of long-range targets. Unlike tanks, the armor of an SPA is effective only against small-arms fire and shrapnel since they are not designed for frontal engagements like tanks. SPA is most useful in mobile conflicts where its “shoot-and-scoot” ability is a major advantage over towed artillery. If you thought the condition of towed artillery is bad then wait till you read this section



0 Operational

The Pakistani Army as of Jan 2017 has a grand total of 325 Self propelled Guns (SPGs), quite an impressive force for an army that size and keeping in mind the Pakistani threat perception. Compared to this the Indian army fields a grand total of “ZERO” guns, on paper Indian Army has 165 SPGs but in reality all of the 165 SPGs have been retired or forced to retire. The 2S1 Gvozdika 122mm Self Propelled Howitzers has been withdrawn from service due to lack of required ammunition, OFB no longer produces the 122mm ammunition, and the British Vickers FV433 Abbot SPG too has been retired due to lack of spareparts.


Conclusion

Rocket acts as a force multiplier and is great for tactics like Shoot and Scoot, massive destruction of an area when the exact location of the enemy is unknown. In doctrines like Cold Start where the main objective of the military is to deliver heavy punishment to enemy forces the role of Rocket cannot be underestimated. The success of the Indigenously developed systems like the Pinaka MBRL and Indian Light Artil systems highlights why it is important for New Delhi to invest in an Indian Military Industrial Complex.

Overall the state of Indian Artillery is not so good, due to decades of policy paralysis, inaction and mismanagement by the Government and the Army, India has fallen behind its Pakistan. This gap in capabilities will take years, perhaps decades, to fulfill. Unfortunately the price of this incompetence will have to paid in blood if war breaks out tomorrow. The Government and the Army need to work on war footing if they want to regain the lost Artillery edge that won them Kargil.



http://www.thefrustratedindian.com/2017/01/india-pakistan-artillery-power/


http://www.pof.gov.pk/products/Artillery_Ammunition/

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/a100.htm

130mm is not a medium howitzer, its basically a field Gun. If Type-59 (130mm) has been modified as howitzer, then please give details.

whoever did this analysis should have mentioned difference between Howitzer and field gun.

Some 105mm are also pack howitzers. M-101 also has a clone,M-56.

 

[Mutakalim]

If @Zarvan or @DESERT FIGHTER said it happened, it happened.

How would you know if Pakistan retired these? Lol
View attachment 372464

Pakistan: 150+ A2 in service with the Pakistan Army. Being Upgraded to M109A5 standard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M109_howitzer

Since when did Pak retire M109A2? rather upgraded them.. source? my father's regiment has em..

Mr. @Gregor Clegane Don't you think you have been humiliated here.
Waiting for an educated reply from you sir.