India-U.S. Bilateral: Boeing To Shift F/A-18 Assembly Line If India Buys 200 Jets

[GURU DUTT]

pls quote your source. Other tahan Bharat Karnad, no where the magical $250 Mn came into limelight.
I would be more than happy to find a flyaway price of 250 Mn authenticated so that i can bounce those reports to Ex Dassault members in other forums..

your wasting your time he is a false flagger

 

[herono1]

your wasting your time he is a false flagger

Tell me one country that bought Rafale for USD 90 million.

 

[HariPrasad]

Does anybody know what they had quoted for each F 18 in MMRCA ? I think that was around 200 crore. So 40000 crore for 200 jets like F 18 is a throw away price. Let us buy it. There is one condition. They will buy all Jet engine parts from PSU so as AESA parts. Agree? Like MKI, we can add a lots of value in F18 too.

 

[Hellfire]

IAF goodies traditionally bought from USA under FMS is about 60% - 80% above the cost of the same system domestically. Eg C17 US domestic price range around $ 250Mn (may be less) versus IAF version around $400 Mn (may be more)

That is inclusive of the costs of infrastructure, training and support. So you maybe wrong here ....

 

[PARIKRAMA]

whole world knows. only ignorant will deny that.

Projet de loi de finances pour 2014 : Défense : équipement des forces et excellence technologique des industries de défense
Quote
b) Cost of the program
Unit cost 74 M € 2013 for the Rafale B (110 aircraft) 68.8 M € 2013 for the Rafale C (for 118 aircraft) and 79 M € 2011 for the Rafale M ( 58 aircraft).

Your ignorance is baffling. Only fools will say Rafale cost is flyaway that high. Even Senate report dont say that high figure.
BTW come with a better answer next time. The price debate has been so long that most people have grown tired of sheer price as black sheep stupidity.

 

[herono1]

Projet de loi de finances pour 2014 : Défense : équipement des forces et excellence technologique des industries de défense
Quote
b) Cost of the program
Unit cost 74 M € 2013 for the Rafale B (110 aircraft) 68.8 M € 2013 for the Rafale C (for 118 aircraft) and 79 M € 2011 for the Rafale M ( 58 aircraft).

Your ignorance is baffling. Only fools will say Rafale cost is flyaway that high. Even Senate report dont say that high figure.
BTW come with a better answer next time. The price debate has been so long that most people have grown tired of sheer price as black sheep stupidity.

Dont show me documents. Tell me which country bought Rafale for USD 90 million.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Sir, Rafale costs of big figure is for 40 years total cost of ownership. flyaway cost of even rafale is estimated to be less $ 90Mn (inflation adjusted)

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 89

the rafale is not $90 million instead, of dollars make it euros and then your about right. thats a unit price excluding maintainance, servicing and training

in regards to the f18's, 200 is way to much to consider moving a production line to india.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

That is inclusive of the costs of infrastructure, training and support. So you maybe wrong here ....

Thats why sir, i negated all those facts (defined under negating points) and considered directly just the inflationary escalation over 2007 base price

 

[Abingdonboy]

On 3 May 2007, the Australian Government signed a A$2.9 billion contract to acquire 24 F/A-18Fs for the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) as an interim replacement for aging F-111s.
The total cost with training and support over 10 years was expected to be A$6 billion (US$4.6 billion)
Source: Australian Government, Department of Defence
Quote "To ensure that Australia maintains its superiority in air-to-air combat and in strike capability in the transition period through to the Joint Strike Fighter and beyond the Government will acquire 24 F-18F Super Hornets Block II, a model of which is in front of me
It also means – and this is an important part of it – that there will be an industry participation program negotiated for Australian industry as a part of the $6 billion 10-year acquisition program for the aircraft components and weapons"



Thats $191 Mn per bird

Important points
1. IAF is not RAAF (A firm supporter of USA and USA MIC and a beneficiary/buyer of F35 program)
2. IAF goodies traditionally bought from USA under FMS is about 60% - 80% above the cost of the same system domestically. Eg C17 US domestic price range around $ 250Mn (may be less) versus IAF version around $400 Mn (may be more)
3. Training and support for RAAF is over 10 years . IAF would want around 35 years Support services
4. The inflationary price rise and tech upgrades should imply at least 4%-7% per year price rise over 2007. So, estimating at lower 4% increase per year
2007 - 100%
2008 - 104%
2009 - 108.16%
2010 - 112.486%
2011 - 116.986%
2012 - 121.665%
2013 - 126.532%
2014 - 131.593%
2015 - 136.86%

So a price rise of over 37% approx over base price of 2007 Super hornets.
Kindly note Advanced Super Hornets is around 30% higher in cost versus Super hornets

Negating
1. All the higher cost of ASH versus SH,
2. Also negating the higher FMS route cost
3. and also negating the higher cost for initial productivity
4. Biggest negation of 35 years support versus over 10years support & training

and considering the price escalation as standard price the new price effective is


191*1.3686 = $261.4026 ~ $260 Mn

Now 200 Birds - $260 x 200 = $ 52000 Mn = $52 Bn

LOL

DM MP will spend $52 Bn for this 200 jets but cant spend for rafales of higher numbers and cheaper comparatively to SH?

@Abingdonboy @zebra7 @Ind4Ever @anant_s @GURU DUTT @MilSpec
Correct me if i am wrong sirs....

It gets more absurd than that-the MoD and forces can't even agree to sign up to CISMOA, LSA and BECA but the IAF will be prepared to induct an American fighter as their frontline war bird?

We don't even need to get into the trivial details of exact unit price- many here are deluding themselves that the cost would be similar to what the USN is paying for its F-18s without factoring in the cost of moving a production line to a new market as well as all the royalties and surcharges that would be reflected by final price paid by the user (IAF).


No way is this deal happening- no way.

 

[Hellfire]

whole world knows. only ignorant will deny that.

what a lackluster rejoinder

 

[PARIKRAMA]

the rafale is not $90 million instead, of dollars make it euros and then your about right. thats a unit price excluding maintainance, servicing and training

in regards to the f18's, 200 is way to much to consider moving a production line to india.

Sir Pls do check post #110 as of 2013. Its in Euros.
Assuming even 7% increment thats approx 15% price rise over 68.8 means Euro 79

Euro/ Doll is around 1.10 so Euro 79 becomes $87 Mn (less than $ 90 Mn)
And yest thats excluding the other costs as shown in the post. So of course Total cost of ownership will increase when we include all that.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Dassault has reneged on Make in India. Dassault making Rafales in India is mere speculations.

Boeing will be transferring existing assembly line whereas Dassault will have to set up new line. Boeing can sell F-18 far cheaper then Rafales.

You are hilariously overinflating the price India will pay for its Rafales and dramatically understating what an inherently inferior product, F-18 SH made in India would cost the IAF.


+ why are we all forgetting the IAF found the F-18 SH failed to meet their TECHNICAL criteria? Before the costs of all the prodcuts even came into the picture the F-18 had already been judged to be undesirable for the IAF so it shouldn't be a huge surprise that Boeing can claim it is cheaper than the Rafale. Marutis are cheaper than Ferraris are they not? Now all of a sudden we are being told to entirely ignore the IAF's 600+ point technical analysis and grab the US offer for what reason? This would be the biggest farce in India's military procurement history and make India look even more absurd on the world stage.

@PARIKRAMA

 

[Hellfire]

Thats why sir, i negated all those facts (defined under negating points) and considered directly just the inflationary escalation over 2007 base price

Your point was being specifically answered with respect to C-17s cost comparision. Also the main thing to understand about US equipment is that the Indians are forbidden to touch it (for tweaking it) for the mere fact that we screw up our maintenance. Case in example is the leak into the IL-78 refuellers when they were stripped of their internal storage tanks for airlifting of supplies in wake of Sikkim earthquakes. The leaks occurred when Indians reinstalled the storage tanks, potentially putting lives of the crew at risk as at one instance, the IL-78 landed at home base with the navigator submerged in fuel. To prevent such instances from happening, the C-130 contract guarantees are void if India undertakes such actions. Additionally, one just needs to look at the hangers for Indian equipment and that built for C-130 by US at Hindon ... you will get the gist.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Sir Pls do check post #110 as of 2013. Its in Euros.
Assuming even 7% increment thats approx 15% price rise over 68.8 means Euro 79

Euro/ Doll is around 1.10 so Euro 79 becomes $87 Mn (less than $ 90 Mn)
And yest thats excluding the other costs as shown in the post. So of course Total cost of ownership will increase when we include all that.

ahhh i se it. i typically dont see posts by a lot of people. i have a few people who i pay more attention to. and i couldnt help notice the error. also dont forget india wants custom parts from israel [ the hud] among other things and also they all need to be implemented which has not been factored in yet so the price is increased this was a problem in the mrca tender, and explained why the price went up.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Your point was being specifically answered with respect to C-17s cost comparision. Also the main thing to understand about US equipment is that the Indians are forbidden to touch it (for tweaking it) for the mere fact that we screw up our maintenance. Case in example is the leak into the IL-78 refuellers when they were stripped of their internal storage tanks for airlifting of supplies in wake of Sikkim earthquakes. The leaks occurred when Indians reinstalled the storage tanks, potentially putting lives of the crew at risk as at one instance, the IL-78 landed at home base with the navigator submerged in fuel. To prevent such instances from happening, the C-130 contract guarantees are void if India undertakes such actions. Additionally, one just needs to look at the hangers for Indian equipment and that built for C-130 by US at Hindon ... you will get the gist.

Utter nonsense, you don't get a safety record as remarkable as the IAF's by being so incompetent that OEMs forbid you from getting near their aircraft. The IL-76s have been in IAF service for decades without any serious issues all thanks to the IAF's impressive proffesionalism.

The point you make about C-17s being maintained by the OEM (Boeing) is because the IAF paid for this privlage- the IAF opted to join the C-17's Global Sustainment Partnership (GSP) wherein Boeing guarentees availability rates of >85%.