India-U.S. Bilateral: Boeing To Shift F/A-18 Assembly Line If India Buys 200 Jets

[MilSpec]

my brother is working with HAL since last 10 years. I had a short stint with HAL also. So i do have first hand experience of the work culture or lack of it in HAL.

Well, that either reflects pretty poorly on your brother or just your myopic understanding of HAL.

 

[punit]

Well, that either reflects pretty poorly on your brother or just your myopic understanding of HAL.

of course ! how can god's own factory HAL do any wrong !

 

[herono1]

40 billion dollars wont be expensive for India. This deal will be operational from 2020 and deliveries will be till 2030. In 2020 India's defence budget will be 80 billion dollars and by 2030 more than 200 billion dollars. So for defence budget of about trillion dollars from 2020 to 2030, 40 billions for F-18 wont be a big amount.

 

[The Huskar]

Exactly.

Unfortunately India can't escape it. We can't match chinese build up with gun to gun. They have similar access to Russian tech as we do so we got no choice but to rely on western tech to get an advantage until we become self reliable. Which requires in house competition driven private public sector R&D.

But our decision makers in MOD would have thought of it while committing for GE.

HAL should attempt to replace the F-404 with Kaveri K-10 during Mk1 MLU and so forth.

 

[Abingdonboy]

So what's so amazing about this offer? Local production was part of the orginal MMRCA deal anyway and is being discussed with the Rafale in mind with Dassualt right now anyway.

Anyone expecting the IAF to induct another type of fighter alongside the Rafale in the exact same catergory is simply foolish.

Nothing to see here.

 

[herono1]

So what's so amazing about this offer? Local production was part of the orginal MMRCA deal anyway and is being discussed with the Rafale in mind with Dassualt right now anyway.

Anyone expecting the IAF to induct another type of fighter alongside the Rafale in the exact same catergory is simply foolish.

Nothing to see here.

Dassault has reneged on Make in India. Dassault making Rafales in India is mere speculations.

Boeing will be transferring existing assembly line whereas Dassault will have to set up new line. Boeing can sell F-18 far cheaper then Rafales.

 

[zebra7]

my brother is working with HAL since last 10 years. I had a short stint with HAL also. So i do have first hand experience of the work culture or lack of it in HAL.

Have you ever worked in any Public company in India. I have word in bot PSU and Public ltd company Crompton Greeves India LTD in production line. Its not the company but the whole system, like supplier chain, excersice items law which could leave the factory for machining without cumbersome paperwork to subcontractor. Don't compare it with the Japanese and German companies that work in Zero Inventory, and optimized time management ways.

What could a single HAL could do, when the other subcontractors, suppliers, transportation, R&D work in suboptimal way, how could a company could change drastically.

US wants to free its lines for F-35, and with so many marketing stunts they made it globally, Boeing could not brag the orders from international orders what they wants, and now this proposal is two way win win benefit for them. First IAF order and marketing and cheaper production using cheap labour, with GE india manufacturing Engines, MMR, electronics from US Imported and assembling with cheaper labors of India with a sure market

 

[PARIKRAMA]

On 3 May 2007, the Australian Government signed a A$2.9 billion contract to acquire 24 F/A-18Fs for the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) as an interim replacement for aging F-111s.
The total cost with training and support over 10 years was expected to be A$6 billion (US$4.6 billion)
Source: Australian Government, Department of Defence
Quote "To ensure that Australia maintains its superiority in air-to-air combat and in strike capability in the transition period through to the Joint Strike Fighter and beyond the Government will acquire 24 F-18F Super Hornets Block II, a model of which is in front of me
It also means – and this is an important part of it – that there will be an industry participation program negotiated for Australian industry as a part of the $6 billion 10-year acquisition program for the aircraft components and weapons"



Thats $191 Mn per bird

Important points
1. IAF is not RAAF (A firm supporter of USA and USA MIC and a beneficiary/buyer of F35 program)
2. IAF goodies traditionally bought from USA under FMS is about 60% - 80% above the cost of the same system domestically. Eg C17 US domestic price range around $ 250Mn (may be less) versus IAF version around $400 Mn (may be more)
3. Training and support for RAAF is over 10 years . IAF would want around 35 years Support services
4. The inflationary price rise and tech upgrades should imply at least 4%-7% per year price rise over 2007. So, estimating at lower 4% increase per year
2007 - 100%
2008 - 104%
2009 - 108.16%
2010 - 112.486%
2011 - 116.986%
2012 - 121.665%
2013 - 126.532%
2014 - 131.593%
2015 - 136.86%

So a price rise of over 37% approx over base price of 2007 Super hornets.
Kindly note Advanced Super Hornets is around 30% higher in cost versus Super hornets

Negating
1. All the higher cost of ASH versus SH,
2. Also negating the higher FMS route cost
3. and also negating the higher cost for initial productivity
4. Biggest negation of 35 years support versus over 10years support & training

and considering the price escalation as standard price the new price effective is


191*1.3686 = $261.4026 ~ $260 Mn

Now 200 Birds - $260 x 200 = $ 52000 Mn = $52 Bn

LOL

DM MP will spend $52 Bn for this 200 jets but cant spend for rafales of higher numbers and cheaper comparatively to SH?

@Abingdonboy @zebra7 @Ind4Ever @anant_s @GURU DUTT @MilSpec
Correct me if i am wrong sirs....

 

[GURU DUTT]

On 3 May 2007, the Australian Government signed a A$2.9 billion contract to acquire 24 F/A-18Fs for the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) as an interim replacement for aging F-111s.
The total cost with training and support over 10 years was expected to be A$6 billion (US$4.6 billion)
Source: Australian Government, Department of Defence
Quote "To ensure that Australia maintains its superiority in air-to-air combat and in strike capability in the transition period through to the Joint Strike Fighter and beyond the Government will acquire 24 F-18F Super Hornets Block II, a model of which is in front of me
It also means – and this is an important part of it – that there will be an industry participation program negotiated for Australian industry as a part of the $6 billion 10-year acquisition program for the aircraft components and weapons"



Thats $191 Mn per bird

Important points
1. IAF is not RAAF (A firm supporter of USA and USA MIC and a beneficiary/buyer of F35 program)
2. IAF goodies traditionally bought from USA under FMS is about 60% - 80% above the cost of the same system domestically. Eg C17 US domestic price range around $ 250Mn (may be less) versus IAF version around $400 Mn (may be more)
3. Training and support for RAAF is over 10 years . IAF would want around 35 years Support services
4. The inflationary price rise and tech upgrades should imply at least 4%-7% per year price rise over 2007. So, estimating at lower 4% increase per year
2007 - 100%
2008 - 104%
2009 - 108.16%
2010 - 112.486%
2011 - 116.986%
2012 - 121.665%
2013 - 126.532%
2014 - 131.593%
2015 - 136.86%

So a price rise of over 37% approx over base price of 2007 Super hornets.
Kindly note Advanced Super Hornets is around 30% higher in cost versus Super hornets

Negating
1. All the higher cost of ASH versus SH,
2. Also negating the higher FMS route cost
3. and also negating the higher cost for initial productivity
4. Biggest negation of 35 years support versus over 10years support & training

and considering the price escalation as standard price the new price effective is


191*1.3686 = $261.4026 ~ $260 Mn

Now 200 Birds - $260 x 200 = $ 52000 Mn = $52 Bn

LOL

DM MP will spend $52 Bn for this 200 jets but cant spend for rafales of higher numbers and cheaper comparatively to SH?

@Abingdonboy @zebra7 @Ind4Ever @anant_s @GURU DUTT @MilSpec
Correct me if i am wrong sirs....

then i guess its not worth it and MP should think something new and challenging

 

[herono1]

On 3 May 2007, the Australian Government signed a A$2.9 billion contract to acquire 24 F/A-18Fs for the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) as an interim replacement for aging F-111s.
The total cost with training and support over 10 years was expected to be A$6 billion (US$4.6 billion)
Source: Australian Government, Department of Defence
Quote "To ensure that Australia maintains its superiority in air-to-air combat and in strike capability in the transition period through to the Joint Strike Fighter and beyond the Government will acquire 24 F-18F Super Hornets Block II, a model of which is in front of me
It also means – and this is an important part of it – that there will be an industry participation program negotiated for Australian industry as a part of the $6 billion 10-year acquisition program for the aircraft components and weapons"



Thats $191 Mn per bird

Important points
1. IAF is not RAAF (A firm supporter of USA and USA MIC and a beneficiary/buyer of F35 program)
2. IAF goodies traditionally bought from USA under FMS is about 60% - 80% above the cost of the same system domestically. Eg C17 US domestic price range around $ 250Mn (may be less) versus IAF version around $400 Mn (may be more)
3. Training and support for RAAF is over 10 years . IAF would want around 35 years Support services
4. The inflationary price rise and tech upgrades should imply at least 4%-7% per year price rise over 2007. So, estimating at lower 4% increase per year
2007 - 100%
2008 - 104%
2009 - 108.16%
2010 - 112.486%
2011 - 116.986%
2012 - 121.665%
2013 - 126.532%
2014 - 131.593%
2015 - 136.86%

So a price rise of over 37% approx over base price of 2007 Super hornets.
Kindly note Advanced Super Hornets is around 30% higher in cost versus Super hornets

Negating
1. All the higher cost of ASH versus SH,
2. Also negating the higher FMS route cost
3. and also negating the higher cost for initial productivity
4. Biggest negation of 35 years support versus over 10years support & training

and considering the price escalation as standard price the new price effective is


191*1.3686 = $261.4026 ~ $260 Mn

Now 200 Birds - $260 x 200 = $ 52000 Mn = $52 Bn

LOL

DM MP will spend $52 Bn for this 200 jets but cant spend for rafales of higher numbers and cheaper comparatively to SH?

@Abingdonboy @zebra7 @Ind4Ever @anant_s @GURU DUTT @MilSpec
Correct me if i am wrong sirs....

Dont add training & support cost. AUD 2.9 billion for 24 planes is less than USD 100 million for one F-18 compared to USD 250 million for Rafales.

 

[mpk1988]

Nope.. Thank you but not required..
However, co-operation and collaboration on next-gen UAVs and UCAVs would be welcomed by all parties I think (with ToT and "Make in India" conditions). I doubt the US would do that though.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Dont add training & support cost. AUD 2.9 billion for 24 planes is less than USD 100 million for one F-18 compared to USD 250 million for Rafales.

Sir, Rafale costs of big figure is for 40 years total cost of ownership. flyaway cost of even rafale is estimated to be less $ 90Mn (inflation adjusted)

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 89

 

[herono1]

Sir, Rafale costs of big figure is for 40 years total cost of ownership. flyaway cost of even rafale is estimated to be less $ 90Mn (inflation adjusted)

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 89

Your data is wrong.

USD 250 million is acquisition cost. Life cycle cost will be more.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Your data is wrong.

USD 250 million is acquisition cost. Life cycle cost will be more.

pls quote your source. Other tahan Bharat Karnad, no where the magical $250 Mn came into limelight.
I would be more than happy to find a flyaway price of 250 Mn authenticated so that i can bounce those reports to Ex Dassault members in other forums..

 

[herono1]

pls quote your source. Other tahan Bharat Karnad, no where the magical $250 Mn came into limelight.
I would be more than happy to find a flyaway price of 250 Mn authenticated so that i can bounce those reports to Ex Dassault members in other forums..

whole world knows. only ignorant will deny that.