India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off:

[anant_s]

Naval AMCA

Not aware of that mate, but it sure can cover for N-LCA and considering IAC 2 and beyond ACs featuring CATOBAR (Steam or EMALS), such a ship based fighter in your inventory could be more than a handful.

 

[gslv]

Honing Pilot skills, creating and practicing strategies, familiarity with the machine, weapon payloads, ground operations etc etc...3-4 years at a minimum...

Yeah operationality of Rafale will take at least 5 years, I was just asking pilot training, rest can follow.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Indeed, this is the way I see it going and then by 2027/30 when the DARIN III Jaguars are a bit long in the tooth the AMCA can replace them.


This is becoming all too logical though, very un-Indian !!!

So let's just wait and see where we screw up

 

[hkdas]

This is business dude.Suppliers will do anything to increase their profit.It is our responsibility to provide zero loopholes in our agreement.And our govt machinery failed in that thing.

ToT was in the orginal RFP.

 

[Abingdonboy]

It's is .But as per source our PM looking to break or skip red tapes in getting 60-63 rafale by 2017. We gift french with 60 rafale orders so we expect them to take care of our immediate problems. If it's true then it can't get better do IAF . Asia's most advanced 4th fighter will be with India

It would be ideal but I don't see how it can be done in terms of production- 60 Rafales by 2017 (and consider we are already 4 months into 2015) would require signing the Rafale deal within weeks AND Dassualt producing 30 Rafales a year purely for the IAF. Considering Dassualt have been producing 11 Rafales a year (admittedly this is an artificially low rate with the intention to keep the Rafale production line open) and now have to deliver to the FraF, FrN and Egyptians I just don't see the IAF getting anywhere near 60 Rafales by 2017 BUT I do see them getting 60 by 2019/20.

Unless Dassualt have made an outrageously attractive offer to the GoI that will ensure 60 Rafales by 2017.

 

[gslv]

Brother training will never be a major holdup in these deals! Between France and India the IAF will get the pilots trained up in time.

Conversion training and certification can happen in the span of a few months as the pilots won't be recruited specifically to fly on the Rafale but will already be within the IAF and qualified on single seat fighters.

So mig to Rafale mostly that is one single seater to another. Hmm.

 

[Erroroverload]

I think PAKISTAN will now should go for J10.

 

[SuperSubrayan]

Brother training will never be a major holdup in these deals! Between France and India the IAF will get the pilots trained up in time.

Conversion training and certification can happen in the span of a few months as the pilots won't be recruited specifically to fly on the Rafale but will already be within the IAF and qualified on single seat fighters.

30 each year as per 2017 deadline. So 1 year from now will be good time frame for training in france and logistics support in India .

Does French has 30 per year supply line ? Or they will give us their used one in service till we get all 60 ?

 

[anant_s]

IF Modi can pull this off and IF this is really what the GoI/MoD are planning I will not only be shocked by their forward thinking and pragmatism but in awe of the fact they sorted this entire mess out and did the seemingly impossible- came up with a deal that suits everyone

My vote and tax money, strangely both seem to be working

 

[Guynextdoor2]

It would be ideal but I don't see how it can be done in terms of production- 60 Rafales by 2017 (and consider we are already 4 months into 2015) would require signing the Rafale deal within weeks AND Dassualt producing 30 Rafales a year purely for the IAF. Considering Dassualt have been producing 11 Rafales a year (admittedly this is an artificially low rate with the intention to keep the Rafale production line open) and now have to deliver to the FraF, FrN and Egyptians I just don't see the IAF getting anywhere near 60 Rafales by 2017 BUT I do see them getting 60 by 2019/20.

Unless Dassualt have made an outrageously attractive offer to the GoI that will ensure 60 Rafales by 2017.

I re-read the first post and think we might be wrong. This might be just a 63 jet deal basis this statement.

The government's drastic decision to scarp the torturous procurement process is aimed at augmenting the IAF's falling numbers as well as save about RS 60,000 crore in precious foreign exchange. The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost about RS 40-45000 crore to be paid out over next four-five years instead of over Rs one Lakh crore necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.

@Abingdonboy
The above statement smacks of 'half the money for half the jets

 

[PARIKRAMA]

30 each year as per 2017 deadline. So 1 year from now will be good time frame for training in france and logistics support in India .

Does French has 30 per year supply line ? Or they will give us their used one in service till we get all 60 ?

Dassault indicated it could ramp production up from one per month to 2.5 per month in the face of export orders.
France’s Rafale: UAE Deal Back on Boards

 

[anant_s]

You forget one factor. Most people don't realize that the early Sukhoi batches are actually gonna be due for retirement within the next decade. So the best case scenario- as the FGFA batches come in, the Su 30 we inducted in mid 1990s will be 25 years old and will be replaced. So the way to look at this might be- Jaguars, Mirage, Mig 29s which are even older are the prime replacement options for Rafale. It will not be obvious for some time since these won't be retired imedeately and the older Bisons will go out first. But eventually- LCA Mk-1 Mk2 will play role of Bisons, Rafale of the medium class and FGFA will directly replace the depleting Sukhoi fleet.

I've a question here.
Consider hypothetically that by 2025, we replace all MiGs (other than MiG 29s), Mirage 2000s and Jaguar and replace them all with Rafale, FGFA and LCA Mk 2, with MKI upgrades and AMCA in induction complimented by a large fleet of MAR and AWACS, do we still need 42 squadrons as projected now, considering there is a huge capability jump involved here.

 

[micky]

Breaking news : PM to cut throu Red tapes . Airforce requirements given highest priority . And purchase of Rafale on the table tonight during meeting with Hollande

i love you man........... you are fantastic........... you are real bharathiey

 

[SuperSubrayan]

It would be ideal but I don't see how it can be done in terms of production- 60 Rafales by 2017 (and consider we are already 4 months into 2015) would require signing the Rafale deal within weeks AND Dassualt producing 30 Rafales a year purely for the IAF. Considering Dassualt have been producing 11 Rafales a year (admittedly this is an artificially low rate with the intention to keep the Rafale production line open) and now have to deliver to the FraF, FrN and Egyptians I just don't see the IAF getting anywhere near 60 Rafales by 2017 BUT I do see them getting 60 by 2019/20.

Unless Dassualt have made an outrageously attractive offer to the GoI that will ensure 60 Rafales by 2017.

There are few possibilities !
1) Send their used jets like 1 squadron for training purposes and operational. Like we got 1st batch of Su30 which we later returned back to the Russians for new batch of MKI

2) Highly doubtful but it's possible for them to Hold on to Egypt offers as its on soft loans .


3) Or in hope of MMRCA they might have already produced spares sufficient enough to produce large numbers in short notice. As french were very desperate lately to sell some rafale enough with their own money as Soft loans.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I re-read the first post and think we might be wrong. This might be a 63 jet deal basis this statement.

The government's drastic decision to scarp the torturous procurement process is aimed at augmenting the IAF's falling numbers as well as save about RS 60,000 crore in precious foreign exchange. The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost about RS 40-45000 crore to be paid out over next four-five years instead of over Rs one Lakh crore necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.

@Abingdonboy
The above statement smacks of 'half the money for half the jets

This article directly contradicts the points made by Le Monde (a far more credible outlet IMHO) so I wouldn't place too much weight behind it. It seems they have heard the "63 jets bought off the shelf from France", have not bothered to understand where that figure has come from (the exact number contained within the original MMRCA RFP for follow-on units) and jumped to the conclusion this means the end of the MMRCA. Now I've thought about it some more and seen this article from Le Monde I'm not convinced by this Indian media analysis of the whole thing.