India to buy 464 Russian-made T-90MS main battle tanks

[Trango Towers]

My X is better than your Y.

Naughty

 

[GumNaam]

Why not ARJUNK?

the answer to your question is in the question itself...

 

[Philip the Arab]

5

Alarming development...

Pakistan should buy a few hundred HJ-12s which are reverse-engineered original Javelins and could easily take on any Indian tank be it Arjun, T-90, T-72.

 

[randomradio]

Basically the Indian factories cant produce enough to keep with the need of having their 3-1 top end tank supremacy.

Whatchu talking about? T-90s are being produced at the rate of 140 per year now.

And the T-90MS will also come from our own factories. Only 64 will be imported.

Will it atleast have APS?
Why not wait to the Armata

We have studied the installation of LEDS-150, Iron First, Trophy and Shtora. IA decided we need to develop our own APS instead. So DRDO is working on it with foreign help, possibly with Israeli input of course.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Alarming development...

No, not really, not this. It's a token amount addition, considering IA.

Though what will be alarming for Pak is the FRCV and FICV programs to replace T72s/none upgraded T90s and BMP2s. Alarming for Pakistan because there will be 1 to 2 private sector production plants with probably OFB rolling out next gen MBTs and IFVs.

Lucky for you ATM Indian bureaucracy and users are taking a long time for it. Industry is ready for the spoils.

 

[randomradio]

Alarming development...

Shouldn't worry Pakistan yet. These tanks are most likely going to Ladakh and Sikkim.

No, not really, not this. It's a token amount addition, considering IA.

464 tanks is 7 regiments for the IA or 10 regiments for the PA, no way just a token amount.

Alarming for Pakistan because there will be 1 to 2 private sector production plants with probably OFB rolling out next gen MBTs and IFVs.

Private players have the advantage when it comes to both FRCV and FICV. Two private companies will be chosen for FRCV.

And OFB needs a miracle to win FICV. Private companies have become increasingly price competitive. We can see that even with the Athos, it's cheaper than OFB's Dhanush even with a higher calibre gun.

Otoh, DRDO is also pushing ahead with FMBT. So that's weird. It might be a backup plan or IA will actually go for this one as well.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Private players have the advantage when it comes to both FRCV and FICV. Two private companies will be chosen for FRCV.

And OFB needs a miracle to win FICV. Private companies have become increasingly price competitive. We can see that even with the Athos, it's cheaper than OFB's Dhanush even with a higher calibre gun.

Otoh, DRDO is also pushing ahead with FMBT. So that's weird. It might be a backup plan or IA will actually go for this one as well.

OFB cant compete directly with private sector players even when they're start ups, but the MoD currently saves OFB by having them not compete at all, by automatically become a production agencies like with the case with FICV.

Even in the small arms case. AK203 didnt even compete at all with any other rifle and OFB will produce it. Originally they wanted to produce it with Adani as well, but MoD forced them to partner with OFB.

In a fair match, OFB will be overtaken fast by the likes of TATAs, L&Ts, Mahindras, etc. even smaller upstarts, but they are given unfair advantage to keep their factories, employees running.

MoD is trying to keep hungry industry happy, yet at the same time old era OFBs and the likes going as well.

 

[randomradio]

OFB cant compete directly with private sector players even when they're start ups, but the MoD currently saves OFB by having them not compete at all, by automatically become a production agencies like with the case with FICV.

Even in the small arms case. AK203 didnt even compete at all with any other rifle and OFB will produce it. Originally they wanted to produce it with Adani as well, but MoD forced them to partner with OFB.

In a fair match, OFB will be overtaken fast by the likes of TATAs, L&Ts, Mahindras, etc. even smaller upstarts, but they are given unfair advantage to keep their factories, employees running.

MoD is trying to keep hungry industry happy, yet at the same time old era OFBs and the likes going as well.

OFB will get enough stuff to keep them going, but it's not going to be a lot.

Take artillery for example. All OFB have is 100+ guns for now and may increase by 300 more. But the private sector is getting more than 1500 guns.

It's going to be the same story with FRCV and FICV, but with the entire order going to the private companies. However IA is also interested in 100-300 light tanks, which can go to OFB, alongside some Arjun Mk1As and Mk2s.

 

[anyrandom]

OFB cant compete directly with private sector players even when they're start ups, but the MoD currently saves OFB by having them not compete at all, by automatically become a production agencies like with the case with FICV.

Even in the small arms case. AK203 didnt even compete at all with any other rifle and OFB will produce it. Originally they wanted to produce it with Adani as well, but MoD forced them to partner with OFB.

In a fair match, OFB will be overtaken fast by the likes of TATAs, L&Ts, Mahindras, etc. even smaller upstarts, but they are given unfair advantage to keep their factories, employees running.

MoD is trying to keep hungry industry happy, yet at the same time old era OFBs and the likes going as well.

So we can say that the Government of India in the name of socialism is harming India jaan-buj-ke.
Ideally only strategic weapons and high end research and development should go to the Govt orgs.

Indian private industry is more than capable to manufacture tanks on their own without any help. If need be, they can partner with a foreign company for initial tech but govt. intervention is not much required here.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

OFB will get enough stuff to keep them going, but it's not going to be a lot.

Take artillery for example. All OFB have is 100+ guns for now and may increase by 300 more. But the private sector is getting more than 1500 guns.

It's going to be the same story with FRCV and FICV, but with the entire order going to the private companies. However IA is also interested in 100-300 light tanks, which can go to OFB, alongside some Arjun Mk1As and Mk2s.

No, in the FICV program OFB was automatically a production agency without competing. Originally they were supposed to compete with the likes of L&T, TATA, etc. but MoD made a PA without trials. Whatever design wins, they also produce it.

So we can say that the Government of India in the name of socialism is harming India jaan-buj-ke.
Ideally only strategic weapons and high end research and development should go to the Govt orgs.

Indian private industry is more than capable to manufacture tanks on their own without any help. If need be, they can partner with a foreign company for initial tech but govt. intervention is not much required here.

Industry is already ready to go. TATA for example already submitted a FRCV design way ahead. In the FICV several players are ready.

For the FICV they are moving way too slow!! There's nothing too revolutionary in a BMP2 successor, hurry up with it!! All players are hungry for the deal. With this deal alone the likes of TATA, L&T. etc. will be one of the biggest armor producer on the plant, with just IA requirement!

 

[airmarshal]

I hope India gets those tanks.

India's defense purchases are a sequence of clumsy events. With new govt coming in, it might find deal had an issue. All of a sudden, it will be revised and number cut by half or quarter with an elusive commitment that rest of the tanks will be built in India with technology transfer.

 

[randomradio]

So we can say that the Government of India in the name of socialism is harming India jaan-buj-ke.
Ideally only strategic weapons and high end research and development should go to the Govt orgs.

Indian private industry is more than capable to manufacture tanks on their own without any help. If need be, they can partner with a foreign company for initial tech but govt. intervention is not much required here.

OFB has to compete and win if they are to produce FICVs.

No, in the FICV program OFB was automatically a production agency without competing. Originally they were supposed to compete with the likes of L&T, TATA, etc. but MoD made a PA without trials. Whatever design wins, they also produce it.

That's not how it was done. All private companies had to go through a downselection process to become eligible. So the Integrated Project Management Team had to check their financial and technical prowess before they were allowed to compete. OFB have no such problem, they are financially and technically sound.

OFB's design has to win if they are to produce it. If other companies win, then OFB won't produce anything, minus any subcontracting work if they are willing.

Industry is already ready to go. TATA for example already submitted a FRCV design way ahead. In the FICV several players are ready.

FRCV PSQR is yet to be made. They are still discussing the tech specs. Only the RFI is out. So the IA will make the PSQR after the RFI process is complete. AFAIK, the PSQR is still not complete even today. Then comes the GSQR. Companies do have their own designs, but nobody can do anything much until PSQR and then GSQR are out.

For the FICV they are moving way too slow!! There's nothing too revolutionary in a BMP2 successor, hurry up with it!! All players are hungry for the deal. With this deal alone the likes of TATA, L&T. etc. will be one of the biggest armor producer on the plant, with just IA requirement!

Some private companies and MoD had set up a roadblock. They were pushing for putting the project under Make II whereas the army wanted it under Make I.

But yeah, this project is going to be very significant globally.

I hope India gets those tanks.

India's defense purchases are a sequence of clumsy events. With new govt coming in, it might find deal had an issue. All of a sudden, it will be revised and number cut by half or quarter with an elusive commitment that rest of the tanks will be built in India with technology transfer.

You have a very poor understanding about how these things work.

No license production deal with Russia has ever been cancelled. And no govt has ever found fault with any Russian deals for at least the last 2 decades, if not more.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

OFB has to compete and win if they are to produce FICVs.

Originally they did, not anymore. They are one of the PA by default, whether their design wins or not.

State-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) will automatically make it to the final list of probables. The project will be divided 60:40 between the top two companies after initialising changes as required by the army, with the government company getting the bigger pie.



https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/b...efence-vehicle-order-amid-delays-2253901.html

Unless this is them just skipping the line of design validation not PA. Not as bad as becoming PA, but still unfair.

 

[randomradio]

Originally they did, not anymore. They are one of the PA by default, whether their design wins or not.

State-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) will automatically make it to the final list of probables. The project will be divided 60:40 between the top two companies after initialising changes as required by the army, with the government company getting the bigger pie.



https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/b...efence-vehicle-order-amid-delays-2253901.html

Unless this is them just skipping the line of design validation not PA. Not as bad as becoming PA, but still unfair.

OFB will be allowed to make a prototype, which is fine, but they will still have to compete with 2 other designs from the private sector.

Generally production is shared in the end, but the 2 losers are basically nothing more than subcontractors while the sole winner makes all the decisions and is basically the lead integrator.

Btw, OFB getting to the final leg of the competition by default is not a problem, in fact it is desirable. OFB is the only entity which actually has experience in the field. So the private sector have to demonstrably surpass OFB if they are to be taken seriously. And if OFB loses in a competition, the unions will not be able to politicise the decision, so the govt and army are not pressured by that. The OFB must already be embarrassed by the fact that the Athos is cheaper the Dhanush.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Why not the mighty arjunk....