What's new

India tells China: Kashmir is to us what Tibet, Taiwan are to you

Wow thanks, your knowledge on stuff like continues to astonish and indeed is a sad story.

As a follow up can you elaborate on "China's medium-term reasons to delay a settlement, as it causes tension and anxiety within Indian decision-making circles. "?
 
English please.

Translation : Oh king you are really great!!! please accept my gift!!!!

this was also a dialog in the hit hindi movie "3 Idiots" where the characters used to say this while pulling down there pants and showing their *** to their friend as a gift

While Soumitra explained the real meaning, mine was a little towards the leftist side of that.
 
If you are implying that Chinese culcure is more homogenous compared to Indian......I agree with you.......otherwise I dont see much of the point in making comparisons for the sake of determining which is the more superior one......:)
The point is that only great civilizations like China are entitled to have imperial territories like Xinjiang and Tibet. Not-so-great civilizations like India are not entitled to any imperial territory. Not even Kashmir.

So any Indian attempt to justify India's expansionist agenda by comparing it to China is a failure. This is a typical Indian claim that is based on nothing more than self-delusion.

The reality is that India is always weaker and less advanced civilization than China. If it tries to behave as strong and powerful as China on the world stage, it will be beaten back.

China was as much a victor in WW2 as France.
Wrong. China never surrendered and in fact it was Japanese Empire that surrendered personally to Generalissimo Chiang Kai Shek. The Japanese Imperial Army was defeated by Chinese troops by 1945 and then finished off by Soviet troops. The US also offered Okinawa / Ryukyu Islands to China, but China refused.

It was the subsequent civil war and cold war that lead to China becoming weaker again compared to Japan. But at the end of WW2, China was very much on top of Japan.

United States the current "alpha dog" is a conglomoration of various races, states and ideas. Never in its pre-modern history has it been a homogenous entity under the rule of one power. In fact just like India, it was colonized by the English, has had social and structural problems, yet tops the category in every spectrum.
LOL. USA was not "colonized" by the English in the same way as India. They were the imperialists! "Indians" are the subjugated colonized native indigenous people. :rofl:

This rant, again, is classic "racial superiority" complex. For all that jumble of words you managed to furiously type away, you have yet to construct one meaningful sentence as to why YOU consider China a 'much much greater civilizational entity" than India.

History is not your forte, I see.
You are one of the 90% illiterate in India I see. I've already told you India was never a technologically advanced nation. China was always far more technologically advanced.

What did Zheng He find when he traveled to the Indian Ocean and forced the natives there to pay tribute to the Empire of the Great Ming? He found a bunch of "barbarians."
 
In a nutshell, without going into a detailed narrative of the number of times met, the places and the personnel concerned, it might be said that the history of India-China talks on the border dispute after 1962 is a story of missed opportunities.

Throughout the 70s through the 90s, the PRC side was more or less agreeable to a compromise solution where the Aksai Chin wilderness would be ceded to China permanently by India; on the other hand, Arunachal Pradesh would be permanently recognised by China as integral part of India.

India failed to take advantage of this very convenient solution. As has already been discussed, because of its arid and unpopulated nature, there is no Indian interest in Aksai Chin, while China finds it a convenient plain through which to run its strategic highway between Lanzhou and Xigatse. It is of vital strategic interest to China, of no strategic or cultural interest to India.

India also failed to take advantage of the flexibility of the Chinese position on Arunachal Pradesh, which is a legitimate area of Indian sovereignty, for a variety of reasons, vitiated only by lack of precision in defining boundaries and in identifying viable landmarks or topological divisions.

Arunachal Pradesh is inhabited by the following tribes, from west, the borders of Bhutan, to the east - the Monpa, the Aka or Hrusso, in two clans, the Kutsun and Kovatsun, the Dafla or Bangni or Ni, in two classes, the Gute and the Guchi, the Apa Tani, and the Abor or Adi, divided into Padam, Minyong, Pangi, Shimong and others. Further east than this is the large confederation of the Mishmi. In all cases, the names of the tribes have been used as commonly accepted by them; the alternative names that they call themselves have been indicated next to those.

None of these tribes are ethnically Tibetan, or even close, with the possible exception of the Monpas. In the case of the Monpas, it is the consensus of scholars, mainly the British, that they are closely allied to the eastern Bhutanese and any influence of Tibetan culture is due to the dominance of the Tawang monastery and its former feudal grip over this tribe.

In all other cases, there is greater affinity with tribes living south of the Brahmaputra than with the Tibetans. There are no cultural similarities, and the spread of Buddhism is not uniform here, as it was north of the Himalayas, or even to the west, in Bhutan. Even the residual matter of their folk-memories of migration has been handled academically by the great Christoph von Fuehrer-Haimendorff: ...these memories can only relate to the last stages of a population movement which may well have changed its course more than once."

Further proof of their distinction from Tibetans comes from Bailey, discoverer of the Bailey Trail which the PLA used with such devastating effect to achieve complete tactical surprise in 1962, who said, writing about the term lopa used by the Tibetans for these southern tribesmen,"The term Lopa meant to the Tibetans what barbarian meant to the Greeks..."

Quite clearly, we should have come to terms with the PRC while they were favourably inclined to deal with the matter on conditions that were perfectly acceptable and coincided with the primary interests of the two sides. Unfortunately, the dilatory nature of bureaucratic decision-making on the Indian side, and the huge difficulties constituted by political fear, by both major national parties, the Congress and the BJP, of acceptance of cession of land by India to China, (leaving aside the constitutional difficulty of this step, which probably requires an amendment to the constitution) stood in the way of a solution.

Today, these favourable conditions for a peace no longer exist. China has now some medium-term reasons to delay a settlement, as it causes tension and anxiety within Indian decision-making circles. There is clearly a distinction between the authority with which Mao and Deng chaired the Military Commission, and that which their successors brought to the same position. There was a marked difference between the veterancs of the Long March and their followers. As a result, today the PLA as well as the PLA AF and the PLAN have a far more aggressive attitude towards neighbouring countries than does the Foreign Ministry.

It is my personal evaluation that we may have to wait for the successor of Hu Jin Tao, the successor being a man with some authority among the military circles himself, greater than the influence of HU, or even for an efflux of time until China is markedly ahead of India in all metrics, for a lasting peace to be settled, and for boundaries to be settled.

I hope you found this note useful.

I have a better suggestion if u can consider it :D just go by my signature and u will know it :partay:
 
The point is that only great civilizations like China are entitled to have imperial territories like Xinjiang and Tibet. Not-so-great civilizations like India are not entitled to any imperial territory. Not even Kashmir.

So any Indian attempt to justify India's expansionist agenda by comparing it to China is a failure. This is a typical Indian claim that is based on nothing more than self-delusion.

The reality is that India is always weaker and less advanced civilization than China. If it tries to behave as strong and powerful as China on the world stage, it will be beaten back.


Wrong. China never surrendered and in fact it was Japanese Empire that surrendered personally to Generalissimo Chiang Kai Shek. The Japanese Imperial Army was defeated by Chinese troops by 1945 and then finished off by Soviet troops. The US also offered Okinawa / Ryukyu Islands to China, but China refused.

It was the subsequent civil war and cold war that lead to China becoming weaker again compared to Japan. But at the end of WW2, China was very much on top of Japan.


LOL. USA was not "colonized" by the English in the same way as India. They were the imperialists! "Indians" are the subjugated colonized native indigenous people. :rofl:


You are one of the 90% illiterate in India I see. I've already told you India was never a technologically advanced nation. China was always far more technologically advanced.

What did Zheng He find when he traveled to the Indian Ocean and forced the natives there to pay tribute to the Empire of the Great Ming? He found a bunch of "barbarians."

Can I ask that people just not respond anymore?
 
@gubbi
@CardSharp
Others

We still have not considered the following issues:
  1. The question of any difference or distinction between Chinese and Indian civilisation, and the associated question of the inherent right of greater sphere of influence or of greater international standing due to this alleged superiority;
  2. The question of the status of the two countries in WWII;
  3. The points raised by Gareeb Nawaz, referred by CardSharp; while these have been deleted by a merciful moderator, perhaps CardSharp could use <ahem, ahem> the usual route to send me a copy, which I shall then respond to;

Could I please be granted a little time, as Saturday and Sunday are both very packed days, and I will be running around within half an hour from now? I should be back at the grind on Monday.

This rant is what is classically defined as "Racial Superiority" complex. The Japanese & the Germans did precisely that in the years leading to WWII.

List out the criteria on which you consider China a "a much much greater civilizational entity" than India or any other civilization for that matter?

India is name of a region. Not a country until recently. China has been a unified state since 300 BC. The Hindu civilization has no record of great influential empires. The Mauryan Empire was too long ago. Mughal Empire was Islamic. China was the leader in world technology until about 600 years ago. China had probably the first blue water fleet in world history. "India" could never be considered advanced until at least going back to the days of Sanskirt (again, a discontinuous civilization from Mughal, British India and ROI).

I'm sorry but India is not comparable to China in any way. China is simply a greater historical civilization. The sooner Indians realize this the less time they can waste trying to pretend otherwise. This is why China is entitled to have imperial lands like Xinjiang, Tibet and so on. This is why we are part of the P5. This is why 21st century is China's century not "Asia's century." China and India are at completely different levels of greatness.

No, stupid is Joe Shearer's claims

"This flatly denies the historical fact that the closest Chinese troops before this year were in the border provinces of Qing Hai and Kham. No Government of China existed in Tibet, none whatsoever."

I'm done with this guy. He's just faking being objective and reasonable. There is no objectivity here whatsoever. It's the same "India is just as great as China, so we are entitled to expand more" delusion that other Indian members have, but they put it across less artfully.

Actually, China was a victor in WW2. India cannot lecture China about lessons from WW2.

There is nobody saying one race is better than another. It's just that for historical reasons, Chinese civilization is always far more advanced and unified compared to Hindu civilization. This is a fact. Just like saying Western Europe has a greater civilizational history than Subsaharan Africa.

It could well be that civilizations from temperate climates have certain environmental advantages that make us more advanced compared to tropical climates.

If you are implying that Chinese culcure is more homogenous compared to Indian......I agree with you.......otherwise I dont see much of the point in making comparisons for the sake of determining which is the more superior one......:)

China was as much a victor in WW2 as France.



United States the current "alpha dog" is a conglomoration of various races, states and ideas. Never in its pre-modern history has it been a homogenous entity under the rule of one power. In fact just like India, it was colonized by the English, has had social and structural problems, yet tops the category in every spectrum.

So what exactly are you trying to prove? That a country can be great only if it is a homogenous, united entity that had a strong culttural influence on history?

I think your "theory" has been debunked already....quit while you're ahead..

Still it's would polite to the rest of us to use English.





China lost 3-4 million soldiers fighting the Japanese, show some respect.

No diesrespect implied to the soldiers.....Much respect infact. A lot of Indian soldiers gave their life fighting the japanese as well....

I just dont think China can be considered the victor in WW2.....and France falls in the same category..

Whatever we have our victor's seat (so does France).

Yep....what matters is that you have it....How you spin the acquisition to boost your ego is your business....

Self fulilling prophecy is a common trait for the Subcontinent and China!

Right back at ya.

This rant, again, is classic "racial superiority" complex. For all that jumble of words you managed to furiously type away, you have yet to construct one meaningful sentence as to why YOU consider China a 'much much greater civilizational entity" than India.

History is not your forte, I see.

There is a serious question I'd like to pose to you Mr Joe, GareebNawaz wrote a little blurb about how India has historically always been (along with some more emotional add-ins)

I myself perhaps out of ignorance of India's complex history am not convinced of the case, maybe you can explain the issue for me. I'll trust your judgement to be the authoritative word.




Thanks, I'll be sure not to miss it Also things should actually get a little better, the admins are going to implement some kind of system to prevent multi-IDs that the suicide trolls take advantage of.

huge difference actually, France was defeated and surrendered, But this never happened to China. China managed to hold the Japanese advancing after losing half of the country, much more like USSR rather than France, except lauching the counter attack.

BTW, at that time, China sent two of her best division to defend the supply route in south Asia. With the US supply, what they did was amazing compare to that of the English army.

as a result, WW2 gave us a grave lesson and experience that India never has a chance to take and to learn. So, today, we can see a big difference in defence doctrine between the two.

China was fighting off an invasion, a world war, and a civil war at the same time. Neither the communists nor the KMT trusted each other enough to truly unite against Japan. Both sides were saving their strength for the civil war they knew was restarting. But nevermind, and nevermind that guy, he's just arguing out of ignorance and patriotism.




Thanks for the translation.
 
Can you guys seriously drop this obsession with this IQ thing, it was started by an absolute crackpot and perpetuated in this little Petridish of hate, we call a forum by a FEW misguided members (as a convenient pot shot). I have seriously never met any Chinese person who dwell on this IQ thing (there wasn't an IQ test in China until recently, it was uncommunist). I can safely say this is not a part of mainsteam Chinese consciousness.

So just drop it and ignore it if it is brought up again. It will go away (banning a certain someone would help but that is outside my prerogative)


@ Joe

I'm afraid there isn't anything to send. His claim that "India was a nation thousands of years ago"merely prompt me to ask a question that I had before.
The list you gave does seems like a good set of topics to explore and I'll happily join in for the duration.
 
@gubbi
@CardSharp
Others

We still have not considered the following issues:
  1. The question of any difference or distinction between Chinese and Indian civilisation, and the associated question of the inherent right of greater sphere of influence or of greater international standing due to this alleged superiority;
  2. The question of the status of the two countries in WWII;
  3. The points raised by Gareeb Nawaz, referred by CardSharp; while these have been deleted by a merciful moderator, perhaps CardSharp could use <ahem, ahem> the usual route to send me a copy, which I shall then respond to;

Could I please be granted a little time, as Saturday and Sunday are both very packed days, and I will be running around within half an hour from now? I should be back at the grind on Monday.

At point #1 I think in order to compare the two countries, we need to pin down what perimeters exactly we wish to examine, and perhaps just drop the whole thing on inherent superiority (there just isn't anything to talk about because it doesn't exist, well either that or I missed something when I was reading history)
 
At point #1 I think in order to compare the two countries, we need to pin down what perimeters exactly we wish to examine, and perhaps just drop the whole thing on inherent superiority (there just isn't anything to talk about because it doesn't exist, well either that or I missed something when I was reading history)

Frankly, I agree.

What I would have done, instead of getting into a hair-pulling match, however, is to link the various successive dynasties in the six important centres of civilisation in India, the Indus, Ganges, Brahmaputra, Narmada, Godavari and Krishna (with the possible addition of the Mahanadi) river valleys. This would explain to those not familiar with the minute details of Indian history how the whole thing hangs together. Also, perhaps, it would explain to some confused souls who have simply not had sufficiently exposure to facts how the valleys interacted with each other, and created a common civilisation out of interestingly distinctive cultures.

But in plain terms, your caution is on target, as usual. I was planning to use those unfortunate remarks of our astonishingly prolific young friend as a jumping off point.

Till Monday then.
 
India did a big mistake by accepting Tibet as part of China, Suzerainty of China over Tibet, without exracting any concession over AP.Now they say AP being a Tibet is in turn a part of china.
 
Back
Top Bottom