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India tells China: Kashmir is to us what Tibet, Taiwan are to you

Because in the past 10 years, China was not the super power and the transition has just begun( i mean the kind of super power with ASAT and J-20). I believe statistics don't count, when China gets the power. As you have said its "fear". During the cold war era, more countries feared about USSR, because it was a iron curtain. US would stop the war, if the majority in US feels that the war should be stopped. Again that's what i can think of.

Thanks.

This is where Joe and I disagree I think. Joe as the good student of history amongst us, thinks that given China's dynastic history, its inevitable momentum will carry it ever westward.

300px-Territories_of_Dynasties_in_China.gif


Whereas I personally think, China of this era is interested in its people, its wellbeing, and its security only. This is something that we haven't quite hashed out but I think we'll get to it one of these days.
 
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This sense of nationhood has actually helped keep a country as diverse as India intact.

True. The trouble starts when nationalism gets exploited by inept politicians to divert attention from difficult problems.

This observation, that Indians are getting more nationalistic, is one such. I would like to venture my own interpretation of this phenomenon.

That's a fair assessment and there is justifiable pride in India's achievements. However, the high level of nationalism in the youth, I suspect, is fueled by the media. That's not necessaily bad: it provides a wellspring of entrepreneurial energy. However, as I replied to jayron above, nationalism is a dangerous tiger that can quickly get out of control in the hands of charismatic and dangerous demagogs. One such example was the needlessly provocative flag hoisting drama on Republic day.
 
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Thank ur god, Thats the difference between the Chinese and indian approach .

The chinese dont promise a referendum and then not give one.........Thats the difference.


In kashmir the most hardliner leader syed ali shah Gilani fighting for break up Kashmir from India is getting pension from the govt, free cancer treatment in indian hospitals and Govt's security as protection ....

So you want him to pay his taxes but give nothing in return?


whereas the the most moderate voice His holiness Dalai Lama fighting for just autonomy of Tibet for instead of complete independence from china was driven out of china and has been living in exile in India for last 50 years.

Your talking about the CIA backed Dalai Lama who ruled with a feudal system that gave nothing to the people and now is used as political card against the chinese?
 
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This is where Joe and I disagree I think. Joe as the good student of history amongst us, thinks that given China's dynastic history, its inevitable momentum will carry it ever westward.

300px-Territories_of_Dynasties_in_China.gif


Whereas I personally think, China of this era is interested in its people, its wellbeing, and its security only. This is something that we haven't quite hashed out but I think we'll get to it one of these days.

Actually, our seeming disagreement is based on a misunderstanding.

I have been of the opinion that as far as the expansion of Imperial China was concerned, it was driven by the need for security on the borders, and was completed by the T'ang Dynasty. Thereafter the ebb and flow of power seems to have become quite unpredictable, and bore no signs of any other ambition or sovereign object.

The annexation of Xinjiang and Tibet in mid-20th century times were two very special political cases; with the subsequent annexation of Hong Kong, it is not clear that there are other such necessary actions still due.

I believe, in fact, that during the course of the next fifty years, there may be some opposite pressures due to the demographic hollowing of China that is predicted by experts. So it is wildly unlikely to see a need for the PLA to be posted in Tezpur, except for punitive purposes, at the end of yet another war, fought on lines which may be suspected but are not yet clear.
 
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hello chinese dragon,

how r u and ur innocent trolling??
i mean how is business going on here?

with regards
:cheers::cheers:

I am curious to know why this post was felt necessary. Considering the high level of posts made by Chinese Dragon, their dignity and balance, it is not clear what provoked this comment. Could you explain this, please?
 
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I just noticed we've been relocated.

Just two posts prior, of course.

Personally, while the administration of this forum must always retain the privilege of being able to decide these groupings according to their interpretation of the topic, this particular re-location was ill-considered and based on a wholly superficial analysis.

We are not really into Kashmir on this thread, but into Indo-Chinese relations.

It was far more logical in its original place.

However, as guests, we can only note the fact, nod in acquiescence, and continue our deliberations.
 
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Sometimes there are utter gems which pass unnoticed or uncommented, largely because they seem so obvious that nobody stops to ask what is going on under the hood.

This observation, that Indians are getting more nationalistic, is one such. I would like to venture my own interpretation of this phenomenon.

We must remember that the last time in history that Indians felt their 'Indianness' so deeply was during the Independence movement. During this movement, Indians let themselves be felt and seen in public as firmly determined people; Independence was a goal of epic proportions, and Indians understood they were fighting a battle, a warllke campaign without a single weapon in evidence.

While a comparison with the torture that China went through would be silly, because the two cases are so dissimilar, what happened in India was in many ways unique in world history. Subsequently, dozens of similar events have taken place, on different scales at different levels, but they all took their cue from this extraordinary campaign within south Asia.

At the time of independence, then, there were two entirely different moods prevailing. One was epiphanic, the other sombre and funereal.

An epiphany (from the ancient Greek ἐπιφάνεια, epiphaneia, "manifestation, striking appearance") is the sudden realization or comprehension of the (larger) essence or meaning of something. The term is used in either a philosophical or literal sense to signify that the claimant has "found the last piece of the puzzle and now sees the whole picture," or has new information or experience, often insignificant by itself, that illuminates a deeper or numinous foundational frame of reference.

There was real reason to be epiphanic in 1947. The whole puzzle had suddenly solved itself, a million struggles in a million dusty streets, the strange interlude of the INA, half-rebel and half-deluded traitor, the war-weariness of the British, the determination of the British working-class to throw off the yokes of their upper-class masters, even if it meant casting away their empire.... It seemed larger than life, every Indian acted and spoke and behaved with a kind of feeling that he or she was individually in the eye of history.

On the other hand, there was incurable sadness. The country had been vivisected; hundreds of thousands were dead, butchered by gangs the leader had been killed in cold blood by the RSS; the leaders were people whose leadership was untested at best.

These feelings didn't last for ever. India soon settled down to years of grinding poverty and dullness, to what can most kindly be described as a bureaucratic socialism, where our progress or lack of it was recounted in murderous prose, which was itself a weapon of mass destruction, printed on toilet paper, with colour covers with the different colours each slightly overlapping the others; where a films division propaganda short inspired the masses before they could see some Hollywood film that the whole world had seen several years before - let's not go on, it's too gruesome to relate the tale.

In these years, we were taught to distrust Indian talent and capability even by our own government. Any initiative that was not inspired by a metastasising bureaucracy was probably either a corrupt practice, punishable with the severest sections of the CrPC, or a foreign attempt at subverting the republic and bringing it to heel once again.

I doubt that either of you who have made these remarks were travellers abroad in the days when we were allowed £5 and $10 - not per day, for the entire trip abroad.Some of our best and brightest students landed up in foreign countries with that sum and nothing more. It was in those days that we learnt to despise ourselves, to understand that we were truly shameful and unworthy of respect, that not only had our industrialisation and urban development failed, but our military also lay in ruins, the same military that saved the skin of the 8th Army and of the 14th Army, was now unable to stand in the path of a vigorous and determined attacker, although it made no bones about tackling an allied force with the same regiments in its order of battle.

Try to imagine, then, what excitement prevailed when the economy, indeed, the country opened up to the outside world. Try, also, the sudden, heady feeling with the release of sufficient foreign currency.

I would invite comment on this response before moving on.

This is a reference to whom ? Netaji ?

BTW I am still waiting for the reference material for the Movement of Dravidians to the subcontinent from Indonesian archipelago.:rolleyes:
 
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Actually, our seeming disagreement is based on a misunderstanding.

I have been of the opinion that as far as the expansion of Imperial China was concerned, it was driven by the need for security on the borders, and was completed by the T'ang Dynasty. Thereafter the ebb and flow of power seems to have become quite unpredictable, and bore no signs of any other ambition or sovereign object.

The annexation of Xinjiang and Tibet in mid-20th century times were two very special political cases; with the subsequent annexation of Hong Kong, it is not clear that there are other such necessary actions still due.

I believe, in fact, that during the course of the next fifty years, there may be some opposite pressures due to the demographic hollowing of China that is predicted by experts. So it is wildly unlikely to see a need for the PLA to be posted in Tezpur, except for punitive purposes, at the end of yet another war, fought on lines which may be suspected but are not yet clear.


One more reason to thank comrade Deng. The hard part will come not when China is on the ascent but when China sees itself as arrived. If the same old stasis and complacency sets in, there will be another 400 year decline (but those are the problems of another generation)

What will really be interesting is China's international posture when it has reached its apogee. China really hasn't had an international foreign policy in its imperial history. Back then it was a naive attitude of, I am the emperor, there are no equals to me or my empire, show me fealty. (part of why the imperial system failed).

China's foreign policy today is centered on the very pragmatic goal of assuring China's welfare and rise but it still largely divorced from a world vision and any indication how China will use its powers to shape the world in the future. America when it saw itself as the sole superpower, declared the end of history and had a very clear view of what the world should look like, but I just can't see that China even has such a view.

I wonder what your thoughts are with regards to China's foreign policy stance in the next hundred years.
Just two posts prior, of course.

Personally, while the administration of this forum must always retain the privilege of being able to decide these groupings according to their interpretation of the topic, this particular re-location was ill-considered and based on a wholly superficial analysis.

We are not really into Kashmir on this thread, but into Indo-Chinese relations.

It was far more logical in its original place.

However, as guests, we can only note the fact, nod in acquiescence, and continue our deliberations.

A careful reading of the title alone should been enough keep the thread where it was, but again as you say we are guests.
 
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A place saver note, in order to keep this thread in my list after the renewal of the forum get-up.
 
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