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India tells China: Kashmir is to us what Tibet, Taiwan are to you

Here i am slightly not able to understand. There are so many democracies which have originated in the past. Do they have that kind of pattern in history? Sir, By no means i am trying to be assertive. I am just trying to be inquisitive. Ottaman empire broke into a democracy. Imperialist Japan became a democracy. But there were no problems for the neighbors.

I believe, we are preferring the US now, because China has grown more assertive with the transparency index remaining low(particularly on its defence doctrine). I don't think people had trouble accepting US as super power( when the transition happened after second world war ).

Thanks...

Also just in the two examples you raise of two countries (Turkey, Japan) who transitioned from empires to democracies, I'd like to point that their transition was anything but peaceful. Turkey's came about after the first world war and Japan's came about after the second world war (and it's not like Japan had a choice, given they were told to by the US military, and the first draft of their Constitution was drafted by US army officers)
 
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Also just in the two examples you raise of two countries (Turkey, Japan) who transitioned from empires to democracies, I'd like to point that their transition was anything but peaceful. Turkey's came about after the first world war and Japan's came about after the second world war (and it's not like Japan had a choice, given they were told to by the US military, and the first draft of their Constitution was drafted by US army officers)

Sir,
I could understand your explanation on Tibet, but here i still have trouble on understanding this. From my previous understanding, i am taking away the point that minorities (say Tibetians, Uighurs etc may not get representations, as they are minuscule ).
But when a democracy is formed with representations from Han chinese of 120 million, are you saying that
a) they would prefer confrontations to solve border conflicts
b) Diplomats and the government won't have any other options other than to act according to them.

One more request would be to consider me as someone eager to learn than as someone arguing? Please don't feel irritated if you feel the questions are amateurish and provide me pointers/guidelines if i have to read before asking something.

Thanks.
 
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I believe, we are preferring the US now, because China has grown more assertive with the transparency index remaining low(particularly on its defence doctrine). I don't think people had trouble accepting US as super power( when the transition happened after second world war ).

Thanks...

How many countries has the USA "invaded" in the past ten years? Iraq, Afghanistan... threatening to invade Iran and North Korea...

How many countries has China "invaded" in the past ten years? None.

If China was America, India would be in serious trouble. Do you really want us to follow in their footsteps, and simply invade those we have a problem with?

Quote: "Be careful what you wish for."

Applies to both China and India.
 
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How many countries has the USA "invaded" in the past ten years? Iraq, Afghanistan... threatening to invade Iran and North Korea...

How many countries has China "invaded" in the past ten years? None.

If China was America, India would be in serious trouble. Do you really want us to follow in their footsteps, and simply invade those we have a problem with?

Quote: "Be careful what you wish for."

Applies to both China and India.

hello chinese dragon,

how r u and ur innocent trolling??
i mean how is business going on here?

with regards
:cheers::cheers:
 
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How many countries has the USA "invaded" in the past ten years? Iraq, Afghanistan... threatening to invade Iran and North Korea...

How many countries has China "invaded" in the past ten years? None.

If China was America, India would be in serious trouble. Do you really want us to follow in their footsteps, and simply invade those we have a problem with?

Quote: "Be careful what you wish for."

Applies to both China and India.

Because in the past 10 years, China was not the super power and the transition has just begun( i mean the kind of super power with ASAT and J-20). I believe statistics don't count, when China gets the power. As you have said its "fear". During the cold war era, more countries feared about USSR, because it was a iron curtain. US would stop the war, if the majority in US feels that the war should be stopped. Again that's what i can think of.

Thanks.
 
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I dont recall the chinese leader asking the UN to intervene in tibet or taiwan and promising a vote to the people like the indian leader did in kashmir.

Thank ur god, Thats the difference between the Chinese and indian approach .

In kashmir the most hardliner leader syed ali shah Gilani fighting for break up Kashmir from India is getting pension from the govt, free cancer treatment in indian hospitals and Govt's security as protection ....

whereas the the most moderate voice His holiness Dalai Lama fighting for just autonomy of Tibet for instead of complete independence from china was driven out of china and has been living in exile in India for last 50 years.
 
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I believe that is an advantage you get with a high percent of homogeneous people( i meant the Han Chinese ) in a nation's population. May be the chinese members can clarify whether i am right.

Thanks.

No,I think the difference in approach lies in the fact the we are Gandian democracy and china is a communist country goes by the ideology of by Mao .
 
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In kashmir the most hardliner leader syed ali shah Gilani fighting for break up Kashmir from India is getting pension from the govt, free cancer treatment in indian hospitals and Govt's security as protection ....

Just because of this security protection he abuses our Democratic system and holds Stone pelting rallies.:hitwall::hitwall:

On the other hand.............. Not a single drop of tear for the two sister got killed today:angry::angry:

Shame on people like him............
 
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No,I think the difference in approach lies in the fact the we are Gandian democracy and china is a communist country goes by the ideology of by Mao .

Interesting, except that there is no such thing as a Gandhian democracy. India is a liberal democracy, period. China is a communist country, but communist countries define themselves as people's democracies, states which have predictable, specified relations between people and ruling party, ruling party and state administration and people and state administration.

The ideology of Mao is no longer a dominant ideology in PRC.
 
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How many countries has the USA "invaded" in the past ten years? Iraq, Afghanistan... threatening to invade Iran and North Korea...

How many countries has China "invaded" in the past ten years? None.

It's simply because India do not face an existential threat from US. US wasn't particularly loved in India even 2 decades back and still we have people in here who see imperialistic nefarious design at every US move.

Also IT and Call Centres.

I do not see much difference between China and US, one is bully of today and one striving to become one. But you don't want to share room with a bully, do you?
 
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It's simply because India do not face an existential threat from US. US wasn't particularly loved in India even 2 decades back and still we have people in here who see imperialistic nefarious design at every US move.

Also IT and Call Centres.

I am just pointing out the irony of the often wished desire of many Indians, that China should become a democracy, and this will somehow make India "safer".

When in fact, the CPC itself is actually the one who is keeping a lid on nationalist sentiments, and preventing them from boiling over.

America is a powerful democracy, and invades the nations that it disagrees with. What is stopping China from doing the same if we were to take up the mantle of democracy? How difficult would it be, for ultra-nationalist groups to rile up the average Chinese person on the street against India, considering our history of relations?

You guys will really miss the CPC, if it ever gets to that point where we become a mini-America.

I do not see much difference between China and US, one is bully of today and one striving to become one. But you don't want to share room with a bully, do you?

Ask your neighbours: Pakistan, China, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, etc. who the "bully" in the region is. It is all about perception.
 
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Personally, I have noticed that Indians are becoming more openly jingoistic and confrontational. Not just online, but also in real life. People I have known for decades have become more fiercely nationalistic. And this happened before 26/11. It has more to do with India's growing economic/diplomatic/military power. In a democracy dancing to the tune of a sensationalist media, this is a dangerous trend.

I don't discuss politics with my Chinese friends in real life, so I can't speak if a similar change is happening in the Chinese psyche.

I agree with most of what you have said. Though irritating and some times offensive to people from other nations, I am not sure if it is necessarily a dangerous trend. This sense of nationhood has actually helped keep a country as diverse as India intact. Though ideally, I would like my people to be more modest , respectful and above all realistic!

Sometimes there are utter gems which pass unnoticed or uncommented, largely because they seem so obvious that nobody stops to ask what is going on under the hood.

This observation, that Indians are getting more nationalistic, is one such. I would like to venture my own interpretation of this phenomenon.

We must remember that the last time in history that Indians felt their 'Indianness' so deeply was during the Independence movement. During this movement, Indians let themselves be felt and seen in public as firmly determined people; Independence was a goal of epic proportions, and Indians understood they were fighting a battle, a warllke campaign without a single weapon in evidence.

While a comparison with the torture that China went through would be silly, because the two cases are so dissimilar, what happened in India was in many ways unique in world history. Subsequently, dozens of similar events have taken place, on different scales at different levels, but they all took their cue from this extraordinary campaign within south Asia.

At the time of independence, then, there were two entirely different moods prevailing. One was epiphanic, the other sombre and funereal.

An epiphany (from the ancient Greek ἐπιφάνεια, epiphaneia, "manifestation, striking appearance") is the sudden realization or comprehension of the (larger) essence or meaning of something. The term is used in either a philosophical or literal sense to signify that the claimant has "found the last piece of the puzzle and now sees the whole picture," or has new information or experience, often insignificant by itself, that illuminates a deeper or numinous foundational frame of reference.

There was real reason to be epiphanic in 1947. The whole puzzle had suddenly solved itself, a million struggles in a million dusty streets, the strange interlude of the INA, half-rebel and half-deluded traitor, the war-weariness of the British, the determination of the British working-class to throw off the yokes of their upper-class masters, even if it meant casting away their empire.... It seemed larger than life, every Indian acted and spoke and behaved with a kind of feeling that he or she was individually in the eye of history.

On the other hand, there was incurable sadness. The country had been vivisected; hundreds of thousands were dead, butchered by gangs the leader had been killed in cold blood by the RSS; the leaders were people whose leadership was untested at best.

These feelings didn't last for ever. India soon settled down to years of grinding poverty and dullness, to what can most kindly be described as a bureaucratic socialism, where our progress or lack of it was recounted in murderous prose, which was itself a weapon of mass destruction, printed on toilet paper, with colour covers with the different colours each slightly overlapping the others; where a films division propaganda short inspired the masses before they could see some Hollywood film that the whole world had seen several years before - let's not go on, it's too gruesome to relate the tale.

In these years, we were taught to distrust Indian talent and capability even by our own government. Any initiative that was not inspired by a metastasising bureaucracy was probably either a corrupt practice, punishable with the severest sections of the CrPC, or a foreign attempt at subverting the republic and bringing it to heel once again.

I doubt that either of you who have made these remarks were travellers abroad in the days when we were allowed £5 and $10 - not per day, for the entire trip abroad.Some of our best and brightest students landed up in foreign countries with that sum and nothing more. It was in those days that we learnt to despise ourselves, to understand that we were truly shameful and unworthy of respect, that not only had our industrialisation and urban development failed, but our military also lay in ruins, the same military that saved the skin of the 8th Army and of the 14th Army, was now unable to stand in the path of a vigorous and determined attacker, although it made no bones about tackling an allied force with the same regiments in its order of battle.

Try to imagine, then, what excitement prevailed when the economy, indeed, the country opened up to the outside world. Try, also, the sudden, heady feeling with the release of sufficient foreign currency.

I would invite comment on this response before moving on.
 
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I am just pointing out the irony of the often wished desire of many Indians, that China should become a democracy, and this will somehow make India "safer".

When in fact, the CPC itself is actually the one who is keeping a lid on nationalist sentiments, and preventing them from boiling over.

America is a powerful democracy, and invades the nations that it disagrees with. What is stopping China from doing the same if we were to take up the mantle of democracy? How difficult would it be, for ultra-nationalist groups to rile up the average Chinese person on the street against India, considering our history of relations?

You guys will really miss the CPC, if it ever gets to that point where we become a mini-America.

I think I misunderstood the context, my post was a reply to the question that why do Indians prefer US over China.

Honestly, be it democracy or autocracy, foreign policy is not dictated by ordinary people. Also I'm having difficulty to imagine ordinary people protesting in large number for want of declaring war on another country. They usually do that when petrol is overpriced or their screwed up version of religion isn't implemented.

Anyway, a democrat China wouldn't be any different than a communist China to India, yeah you will lose the support of Communist Party of India but I don't think you will miss that as our communists don't invest in Sanghhai stock exchange.

Ask your neighbours: Pakistan, China, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, etc. who the "bully" in the region is. It is all about perception.

Perception it is, when did I deny that?
 
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Don't need to call me sir lol

Sir,
I could understand your explanation on Tibet, but here i still have trouble on understanding this. From my previous understanding, i am taking away the point that minorities (say Tibetians, Uighurs etc may not get representations, as they are minuscule ).
But when a democracy is formed with representations from Han chinese of 120 million, are you saying that
a) they would prefer confrontations to solve border conflicts
b) Diplomats and the government won't have any other options other than to act according to them.

I didn't mean to say that minority won't be represented, just that in a representative democracy, 0.2 percent of the population will not be a decisive force in policy. The local administration in Tibet and Xinjiang are always either Tibetan or Uighur/Hui respectively


But when a democracy is formed with representations from Han chinese of 120 million, are you saying that
a) they would prefer confrontations to solve border conflicts
b) Diplomats and the government won't have any other options other than to act according to them.

a) I doubt it, war is not good for business. Also I'm not sure how many people in China knows about the history of border or the war in 1962. I'm just afraid domestic politicians in a election will manipulate international issues. Have you seen "wag the dog"? if so something like that.
b) Of course they do, but they will have less maneuvering room if votes directly decide if they will a job.


Sir,
One more request would be to consider me as someone eager to learn than as someone arguing? Please don't feel irritated if you feel the questions are amateurish and provide me pointers/guidelines if i have to read before asking something.

Thanks.

Of course and I should thank you for asking the questions, it usually takes a quorum of people willing to put aside their pride to get an honest discussion going. You are definitely welcome.
 
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