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India tells China: Kashmir is to us what Tibet, Taiwan are to you

Dear Joe Shearer:

I'm sure you have noticed that my stance on this forum has changed somewhat, with regards to Sino-Indian relations.

The trigger for this slight change in position, was being called a "slanty-eyed chink" constantly, over and over again, by Indian suicide trolls on this forum. Then having seemingly rational Indian posters telling me that "chink" was not an offensive word.

Rest assured that I do not hold any ill-will towards the Indian people at all. I just decided that there is no real point trying to argue for the idea of Sino-Indian friendship on *this* forum at least.

I will try to respond to your very lengthy post if I can find the time, and apologies in advance for the slow reply.

Hi CD,
Personally i do feel distressed to sense the mood behind your post. Truth to tell, i could see some changes. But for the fact that that PMs have been discontinued, was tempted to suggest some abstinence from the scene of so much stupid and meaningless mayhem. But that would have only been the 'next best thing'. The 'best thing' is still to (sometimes) ignore the rest of the crazy world around; and (narcissistic as it may seem) to even believe that nothing else exists except some sensible people in this world (however few or remote) apart from me of course ;-). Since i am unwise to carry out either of the above, i listen to music while on this forum. Listening (for example) to the "Ode to Joy" helps me withstand all the stones and more that certain "High IQ" guys can fling in my direction.

i am not what other people consider me to be, but what i understand me to be.

So; "What me worry"-- Alfred E. Neumann
Good Luck and :cheers:

About the bold part. Dude please be matured, there will never be any time where every single person of the country will be sane.

Forget country it cannot be achieved even for one city.

So are you going to change your position, because someone offened you.

If i remember correctly CD you once stated that not only online racists are the reason for this change of stance but also some real life incident too helped that end. I don't know what that was as i don't recall you stating that one elaborately. I feel bad for this unfortunate outcome and feel bad for loosing a friend like you but i sincerely urge you to be more forgiving if possible (by which i speak of the real life one not the online one).

Dear Friend,

I hope that this compilation of views will show you that some of us are genuinely distressed at the discourtesy that you have been shown and sincerely regret these insults and offensive words. The persons who have reacted are among the level-headed Indians, and people whose views I have personally always found interesting to read, and whose mental and judgemental balance has always been worth emulation.

These expressions of sincere regret should help you to overcome your justifiable anger and hurt at the nasty things that have been said. Please do not continue to feel hurt; it is in turn sad for us to see you in this state.

With sincere regards,
 
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Dear Friend,

I hope that this compilation of views will show you that some of us are genuinely distressed at the discourtesy that you have been shown and sincerely regret these insults and offensive words. The persons who have reacted are among the level-headed Indians, and people whose views I have personally always found interesting to read, and whose mental and judgemental balance has always been worth emulation.

These expressions of sincere regret should help you to overcome your justifiable anger and hurt at the nasty things that have been said. Please do not continue to feel hurt; it is in turn sad for us to see you in this state.

With sincere regards,

Hey Joe, those kind words are appreciate but it's not so much that we will judge Indians collectively, but rather we have to deal with the bad apples on a day in and day out basis when we visit the forum. There's unfortunately little we can do about the uncouth and ignorant members that we run across.

I'll make a promise to grin and bare it with a better disposition.
 
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I beg your pardon, but what you have presented is your view of my views, shadowy and lacking in depth or perspective. These positions below do not represent my views, and I am therefore correcting what you have stated wherever the exaggeration or distortion is very great and needs correction.

Joe's argument is basically the claim that China and India are equivalent in terms of civilizational greatness so that it is natural for China and India to have equivalent spheres of influence. However, China definitely has a larger territory, sphere of influence and international standing.

Not at all.

While I certainly believe that China and India are equivalent in terms of civilisational greatness, I do not believe and have not stated so on any occasion that it is therefore natural for China and India to have equivalent spheres of influence.

That is nonsense.

There is nothing 'natural' in acquiring a sphere of influence and acquiring international standing. These are not dependent on civilisational greatness. These are dependent on the circumstances of that time, and their effects. These depend on historical circumstances in other words, not on 'timeless' factors, and are also politically influenced.

At this moment, and for some of the future, China's economy and social cohesion are such that it is inevitable that her international standing and sphere of influence will be greater.


Joe is saying, "Why can't India have that too? That's our entitlement. So our expansionist agenda is legitimate."

Completely contrary to my views.

The answer to Joe's question is, "China is a much much greater civilizational entity, so there is no comparison between China and India. China is unified in time and geography -- a single state. India on the other hand is geographically separate princely kingdoms. South Asian empires are historically and culturally discontinuous. Mughal Empire does not trace its origins from Mauryan Empire for example."

An answer to a question that was not asked.

An answer, amusingly enough, that is worthless in value, and inferior in logic. Not my thinking.

Sorry. Try elsewhere, please.


I'm sorry, but India has nothing that remotely compares to China's historical (and present) greatness. Your Hindu civilization is..... charming...... but you are no match for China. Any attempt by Indians to try to picture themselves as China's equal is nothing more than self-delusion.

So as a "not-so-great" power you deserve no imperial territory. No Kashmir and no Assam (if they don't really want to be part of India). China is a great power, so we get imperial territory. It's really that simple, folks. You might say we are in different "castes."

I can only describe this as a rant based on self-delusion, undeserving of any detailed response.
 
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This rant is what is classically defined as "Racial Superiority" complex. The Japanese & the Germans did precisely that in the years leading to WWII.

List out the criteria on which you consider China a "a much much greater civilizational entity" than India or any other civilization for that matter?

India is name of a region. Not a country until recently. China has been a unified state since 300 BC. The Hindu civilization has no record of great influential empires. The Mauryan Empire was too long ago. Mughal Empire was Islamic. China was the leader in world technology until about 600 years ago. China had probably the first blue water fleet in world history. "India" could never be considered advanced until at least going back to the days of Sanskirt (again, a discontinuous civilization from Mughal, British India and ROI).

I'm sorry but India is not comparable to China in any way. China is simply a greater historical civilization. The sooner Indians realize this the less time they can waste trying to pretend otherwise. This is why China is entitled to have imperial lands like Xinjiang, Tibet and so on. This is why we are part of the P5. This is why 21st century is China's century not "Asia's century." China and India are at completely different levels of greatness.

In one sentence, it is amusing and instructive to see the confusion between civilisation and nation. It is amusing also to see the discontinuity between administrative and political regimes being transferred on to the civilisation itself.

In two sentences, on the basis of a non-existent civilisational superiority, we are asked to believe that perquisites come with this superiority. Rather in the way that higher business status brings a larger office, preferably a corner office, a larger desk, larger car and of course, club memberships and a nice large house as well.

This can only evoke helpless amusement. What would we have done without this kind of light interlude?

It is almost not even worth pointing out that with great power comes great responsibility. A word, and a role that does not occur anywhere in this brilliant analyst's comments.
 
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Hey Joe, those kind words are appreciate but it's not so much that we will judge Indians collectively, but rather we have to deal with the bad apples on a day in and day out basis when we visit the forum. There's unfortunately little we can do about the uncouth and ignorant members that we run across.

I'll make a promise to grin and bare it with a better disposition.

Please also convey to Chinese-Dragon that he is well-respected and affectionately regarded. We will stomp out suicide trolls and help them achieve their statistical objectives with the greatest of pleasure.:angry: He - and you - need to be in the audience on such pleasant occasions.
 
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There is a serious question I'd like to pose to you Mr Joe, GareebNawaz wrote a little blurb about how India has historically always been (along with some more emotional add-ins)

I myself perhaps out of ignorance of India's complex history am not convinced of the case, maybe you can explain the issue for me. I'll trust your judgement to be the authoritative word.


Please also convey to Chinese-Dragon that he is well-respected and affectionately regarded. We will stomp out suicide trolls and help them achieve their statistical objectives with the greatest of pleasure.:angry: He - and you - need to be in the audience on such pleasant occasions.

Thanks, I'll be sure not to miss it Also things should actually get a little better, the admins are going to implement some kind of system to prevent multi-IDs that the suicide trolls take advantage of.
 
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This is a why all of China's neighbours are wary of its economic and military rise. As pointed out above this racial supremacy crap was what directly led y\to WW2 and the extermination of jews. This is becoming too often the case with Chinese posters here and other fora to point out their racial superiority over others. If this thinking is what goes on in an ordinary Chinese mind, how can one be sure this isnt a pointer to what will be coming in future.
And then we hear all that talk about peaceful rise and non-expansionist agenda.

Dear Sir,

I would not waste time answering a fan-boy's effusions and testosterone-driven excesses. It is simply worthless and does not justify any time spent in response.

In any case, it has been admirably summed up by CardSharp in his mail no. 178. I recommend it to all. If I add something to it, it will be spinning out what has been expressed so succintly.

Warm regards,
 
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Heh. Ironic, considering post 178, one of the best I have read.

There is a serious question I'd like to pose to you Mr Joe, GareebNawaz wrote a little blurb about how India has historically always been (along with some more emotional add-ins)

I myself perhaps out of ignorance of India's complex history am not convinced of the case, maybe you can explain the issue for me. I'll trust your judgement to be the authoritative word.

It gives me both great pleasure and great amusement to point out that you have yourself set the foundation for my answer, which I wish to give in a few hours; it is a busy day today, and I need to do a White Rabbit, if only some kind soul were to lend me a pocket watch!

Your mail no. 178 goes to the heart of the matter. I am pleased because it expresses the core idea with such economy of words; I am amused because one young man spends dozens of words and gets it disastrously wrong, on logic and facts alike, while another (slightly older) young man puts his finger on the core of the topic in less than a hundred words!

This discussion is getting to be fun!




Thanks, I'll be sure not to miss it Also things should actually get a little better, the admins are going to implement some kind of system to prevent multi-IDs that the suicide trolls take advantage of.
 
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China was as much a victor in WW2 as France.

huge difference actually, France was defeated and surrendered, But this never happened to China. China managed to hold the Japanese advancing after losing half of the country, much more like USSR rather than France, except lauching the counter attack.

BTW, at that time, China sent two of her best division to defend the supply route in south Asia. With the US supply, what they did was amazing compare to that of the English army.

as a result, WW2 gave us a grave lesson and experience that India never has a chance to take and to learn. So, today, we can see a big difference in defence doctrine between the two.
 
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Jahapanah tusi great ho toufa kubuul karo !!!!

Translation : Oh king you are really great!!! please accept my gift!!!!

this was also a dialog in the hit hindi movie "3 Idiots" where the characters used to say this while pulling down there pants and showing their *** to their friend as a gift
 
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huge difference actually, France was defeated and surrendered, But this never happened to China. China managed to hold the Japanese advancing after losing half of the country, much more like USSR rather than France, except lauching the counter attack.

BTW, at that time, China sent two of her best division to defend the supply route in south Asia. With the US supply, what they did was amazing compare to that of the English army.

as a result, WW2 gave us a grave lesson and experience that India never has a chance to take and to learn. So, today, we can see a big difference in defence doctrine between the two.

China was fighting off an invasion, a world war, and a civil war at the same time. Neither the communists nor the KMT trusted each other enough to truly unite against Japan. Both sides were saving their strength for the civil war they knew was restarting. But nevermind, and nevermind that guy, he's just arguing out of ignorance and patriotism.


Translation : Oh king you are really great!!! please accept my gift!!!!

this was also a dialog in the hit hindi movie "3 Idiots" where the characters used to say this while pulling down there pants and showing their *** to their friend as a gift

Thanks for the translation.
 
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Thank you so much for the kind words; they are sincerely appreciated.

To answer your question, yes, I do have views on the current status of the India-China border talks. However, before I go public with them, you should know that my true views are somewhat different from what I stated to Chinese-Dragon. Those views were the 'opening statements', so to speak, and not what we would agree to, or settle for. Or rather, what we should agree to, or settle for.

With that in view, are you sure you will want to know my views, and not be disappointed?

Regards,

Please do share your views.
 
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This is getting tiresome and over PC.

India has recognised China's suzerainty over Tibet not sovereignty.

The dispute over Tibet is not a dispute between India and China because India is not disputing it.

I am not going to ask mods to change the title of this thread. Not because Kashmir word used by Indian diplomat is technically equivalent to Tibet and Taiwan but an intention to play a half-baked chip with significant tactical importance at this stage.

What needs to be said is already said by Indian diplomat. People here should have the only privilege to discuss, whether India is capable to dispute Tibet alone or with the help of someone else with China and test her teaching skills.

I am not an Astrologer to predict the future BTW, therefore my duration ends here on this thread with this note.
 
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Please do share your views.

In a nutshell, without going into a detailed narrative of the number of times met, the places and the personnel concerned, it might be said that the history of India-China talks on the border dispute after 1962 is a story of missed opportunities.

Throughout the 70s through the 90s, the PRC side was more or less agreeable to a compromise solution where the Aksai Chin wilderness would be ceded to China permanently by India; on the other hand, Arunachal Pradesh would be permanently recognised by China as integral part of India.

India failed to take advantage of this very convenient solution. As has already been discussed, because of its arid and unpopulated nature, there is no Indian interest in Aksai Chin, while China finds it a convenient plain through which to run its strategic highway between Lanzhou and Xigatse. It is of vital strategic interest to China, of no strategic or cultural interest to India.

India also failed to take advantage of the flexibility of the Chinese position on Arunachal Pradesh, which is a legitimate area of Indian sovereignty, for a variety of reasons, vitiated only by lack of precision in defining boundaries and in identifying viable landmarks or topological divisions.

Arunachal Pradesh is inhabited by the following tribes, from west, the borders of Bhutan, to the east - the Monpa, the Aka or Hrusso, in two clans, the Kutsun and Kovatsun, the Dafla or Bangni or Ni, in two classes, the Gute and the Guchi, the Apa Tani, and the Abor or Adi, divided into Padam, Minyong, Pangi, Shimong and others. Further east than this is the large confederation of the Mishmi. In all cases, the names of the tribes have been used as commonly accepted by them; the alternative names that they call themselves have been indicated next to those.

None of these tribes are ethnically Tibetan, or even close, with the possible exception of the Monpas. In the case of the Monpas, it is the consensus of scholars, mainly the British, that they are closely allied to the eastern Bhutanese and any influence of Tibetan culture is due to the dominance of the Tawang monastery and its former feudal grip over this tribe.

In all other cases, there is greater affinity with tribes living south of the Brahmaputra than with the Tibetans. There are no cultural similarities, and the spread of Buddhism is not uniform here, as it was north of the Himalayas, or even to the west, in Bhutan. Even the residual matter of their folk-memories of migration has been handled academically by the great Christoph von Fuehrer-Haimendorff: ...these memories can only relate to the last stages of a population movement which may well have changed its course more than once."

Further proof of their distinction from Tibetans comes from Bailey, discoverer of the Bailey Trail which the PLA used with such devastating effect to achieve complete tactical surprise in 1962, who said, writing about the term lopa used by the Tibetans for these southern tribesmen,"The term Lopa meant to the Tibetans what barbarian meant to the Greeks..."

Quite clearly, we should have come to terms with the PRC while they were favourably inclined to deal with the matter on conditions that were perfectly acceptable and coincided with the primary interests of the two sides. Unfortunately, the dilatory nature of bureaucratic decision-making on the Indian side, and the huge difficulties constituted by political fear, by both major national parties, the Congress and the BJP, of acceptance of cession of land by India to China, (leaving aside the constitutional difficulty of this step, which probably requires an amendment to the constitution) stood in the way of a solution.

Today, these favourable conditions for a peace no longer exist. China has now some medium-term reasons to delay a settlement, as it causes tension and anxiety within Indian decision-making circles. There is clearly a distinction between the authority with which Mao and Deng chaired the Military Commission, and that which their successors brought to the same position. There was a marked difference between the veterancs of the Long March and their followers. As a result, today the PLA as well as the PLA AF and the PLAN have a far more aggressive attitude towards neighbouring countries than does the Foreign Ministry.

It is my personal evaluation that we may have to wait for the successor of Hu Jin Tao, the successor being a man with some authority among the military circles himself, greater than the influence of HU, or even for an efflux of time until China is markedly ahead of India in all metrics, for a lasting peace to be settled, and for boundaries to be settled.

I hope you found this note useful.

newdelhiinsa said:
This is getting tiresome and over PC.

India has recognised China's suzerainty over Tibet not sovereignty.


This statement is completely incorrect. Government of India has accepted that Tibet is an integral part of China. It was the British Indian government that restricted recognition of Chinese authority over Tibet to recognition of China's suzerainty, not Government of India. It is disheartening to find a fresh cause for confusion being introduced, the dispute being complex enough as it is.

The dispute over Tibet is not a dispute between India and China because India is not disputing it.

I am not going to ask mods to change the title of this thread. Not because Kashmir word used by Indian diplomat is technically equivalent to Tibet and Taiwan but an intention to play a half-baked chip with significant tactical importance at this stage.

What needs to be said is already said by Indian diplomat. People here should have the only privilege to discuss, whether India is capable to dispute Tibet alone or with the help of someone else with China and test her teaching skills.

The passage marked in red (above) is completely incomprehensible. If it is intended to convey a further protraction of the dispute, this time on a belligerent basis by India, it is difficult to consider a worse scenario from the Indian point of view.

I am not an Astrologer to predict the future BTW, therefore my duration ends here on this thread with this note.
 
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