India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

[wind]

There is no doubt that EF is a better fighter than Rafale but I dont see what purpose it will serve for India when it already have MKI and FGFA in pipe line

 

[Abingdonboy]

In the period immediately after the April down select I thought Dassualt had it in the bag but as time has worn on and given recent developments it certainly seems as though the tide is swinging in favour of EFT.

 

[luckyyy]

Its expected that the price will come down from the initial tender.

I dont think there is any possibility to next in line jet calling, but if thats the case would love to see Hornets in IAF colors.

infect in the case of a Resultant Single Vendor scenario, the Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) would then have to arrive at a benchmark of the price it will consider reasonablen in an internal meeting before opening the commercial offer , Once the commercial offers are opened and the price of the vendor is found to be within the benchmark fixed, in the internal meeting, there should be no need to carry out any further price negotiations.
The RFP in such multi-vendor cases, should clearly lay down that no negotiations would be carried with the L1 vendor.’

http://www.stratpost.com/the-long-road-to-the-mmrca-shortlist

what is not clear though is , does there is a reasonable benchmark price set in present scenario where two jets are shortlisted ..

 

[dbc]

infect in the case of a Resultant Single Vendor scenario, the Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) would then have to arrive at a benchmark of the price it will consider reasonablen in an internal meeting before opening the commercial offer , Once the commercial offers are opened and the price of the vendor is found to be within the benchmark fixed, in the internal meeting, there should be no need to carry out any further price negotiations.
The RFP in such multi-vendor cases, should clearly lay down that no negotiations would be carried with the L1 vendor.’

The Long Road to the MMRCA Shortlist | StratPost

what is not clear though is , does there is a reasonable benchmark price set in present scenario where two jets are shortlisted ..

A bench mark for 'reasonable price' is established regardless of the number of vendors shortlisted, if L1 is over the bench mark estimate, the contract negotiation team will attempt to bring L1 as close to the bench mark estimate as possible. L1 may also be disregarded for strategic benefit one of the shortlisted offering brings to India.

 

[tallboy123]

Still Rafale leads EF in the polls above

 

[RockyX]

Rafale

 

[jha]

Hefty Rs 42,000 crore bill for combat aircraft may rise

For years, India’s proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) --- the world’s largest overseas fighter buy for which the Typhoon, built by Eurofighter GmbH; and the Rafale, developed by French vendor Dassault, remain in contention --- has been valued at Rs 42,000 crore, almost US $10 billion. Now that valuation is set to rise dramatically as the Ministry of Defence carries out a process called benchmarking.

Benchmarking is the crucial process of estimating the fair price for any purchase, and is completed before the MoD opens the price bids for any tender. This is done by an MoD committee which scrutinises similar tenders worldwide, especially recent sales, to arrive at a comparable --- or as the name suggests, a benchmark --- price. If all the vendors’ bids emerge significantly higher than the benchmark, the tender is cancelled and the process begun afresh.

For example, if the MoD committee that is currently benchmarking the MMRCA concludes that Rs 42,000 crore is a decade-old estimation that should be increased due to inflation by 50%, the benchmark for that contract will be pegged at Rs 63,000 crore. When the Eurofighter’s and Dassault’s bids are opened, if both turn out to be notably higher, the MoD will scrap the MMRCA tender. On the other hand, if the lower bid is less than or approximates the benchmark, that bid will be accepted.

The benchmark figure has become crucial for the Typhoon and Rafale, which are acknowledged as the most expensive of the six fighters that competed for the IAF’s order. Watching from the sidelines and hoping that the procurement falls through are the four aircraft vendors who were eliminated from the MMRCA contest in April: Russia’s MiG; Sweden’s Saab; and American companies, Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Two of those vendors have told Business Standard that they believe that Eurofighter’s and Dassault’s quotes will be far higher than the benchmark. If they are correct, the long process of obtaining sanctions, tendering, evaluations and field trials will have been fruitless.

One eliminated contestant sources the Rafale’s price from the Brazilian media, which has keenly followed the contest between Dassault, Saab and Boeing to sell 36 fighters to the Brazilian Air Force. A detailed story in the Sao Paulo based daily, Folha de S. Paulo, pegs the Rafale bid at US $6.2 billion (plus another US $4 billion for maintenance over the next 30 years, according to the terms of the Brazilian tender). Quoting French sources, the daily reports that the $6.2 billion bid is a discounted price, brought down from $8.2 billion after intense Brazilian pressure on Paris. Extrapolating these figures onto the Indian contract, Dassault’s quote for 126 MMRCAs could be as much as $20 billion, twice the initially estimated figure.

The Indian price bids, however, involve a different calculation. The South Block tender demands price quotes on a “life-cycle” basis, a complex and detailed format that factors in the cost of 126 fighters over their estimated service life of 40 years. Bids are broken down into seven heads --- M-1 to M-7 --- and include the fly-away cost of the fighter; cost of spare parts; operating costs; cost of inspections and maintenance; transfer of technology; and training expenses. The final figure, M-8, is the overall cost, reached by adding up M-1 to M-7.

Executives from Rafale and Eurofighter agree that Rs 42,000 crore is an outdated price and that the survival of the MMRCA contract now depends upon how much higher the MoD is willing to raise the benchmark.

“Rs 42,000 crore was a price estimated a decade ago, and that was for a smaller, single-engine fighter. When you factor inflation, and the fact that India is now buying a heavy, twin-engine fighter, naturally the price will be much higher,” says a senior executive from one of the vendor companies.

A keen watcher of these developments is Lockheed Martin, whose F-16IN Super Viper was rejected by the IAF. A visiting Lockheed Martin executive told Business Standard that the fifth-generation F-35 Lightening II would become a real option for India if the MMRCA procurement was scrapped.

“We did not offer the F-35 for the MMRCA contract because it exceeded the Indian specifications; the fighter was not yet ready for the kind of flight testing specified in the tender; and because the US government had not yet approved it for release to India to include transfer of technology as specified in the RfP,” said Orville Prins, Lockheed Martin’s Vice President for Business Development.

Six years down the line, these conditions have changed. Prins now points out that, with Lockheed Martin set to build 20 fighters per month, i.e. 240 per year, “we could be in a position to supply India with its first F-35s by 2016, contingent upon many additional factors including US governmental approval that would affect this timing.”

Asked for the cost of the F-35, Lockheed Martin estimates it “in the mid-60s”, i.e. somewhere between $60-70 million for the conventional version of the fighter. This would be the cost of a full-up, operational configuration with all the high-tech sensors that are integrated internally in a 5th generation, stealthy aircraft.

Broadsword: Hefty Rs 42,000 crore bill for combat aircraft may rise

 

[jha]

So, If RAFALE and EF have quoted too high, we might see F-35 in IAF colours if they start the delivery in 2016 as promised..

 

[saurav]

So, If RAFALE and EF have quoted too high, we might see F-35 in IAF colours if they start the delivery in 2016 as promised..

We should get F-35 instead of costly european planes. A next gen. plane.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Hefty Rs 42,000 crore bill for combat aircraft may rise





Broadsword: Hefty Rs 42,000 crore bill for combat aircraft may rise

For me, at least, things just got interesting- are the IAF really willing to pay such a HUGE price tag for out dated (relative to F-35 as its 5th GEN) planes when the next gen is no only much cheaper but also "future proof".

 

[RockyX]

For me, at least, things just got interesting- are the IAF really willing to pay such a HUGE price tag for out dated (relative to F-35 as its 5th GEN) planes when the next gen is no only much cheaper but also "future proof".

Rafale and ET are most closed to 5th Generation Air Craft. They are 4.5th Generation Jets. F-18, Gripen and Sukhoi 35/30MKI are also 4.5th But little behind.

But Problem is not that. Our need is immediate and not after 2017-2018. We can't wait for 8-10 years. Also, We have Final Deal for PAKFA / FGFA (250-300 5th Generation Air craft fighter) and Also another 5th Generation Air Craft AMCA work will also start at that time too. After 2017, we will be getting 5th Generation Air craft in any case. Before that we need to add 4.5th Generation ACF to keep squadron upto mark quality and quantity too.

 

[Vasily Zaytsev]

You Guys become really so Gullible whenever Ajay Shukla writes.

This writer claimed that EJ 200 engine had won for Tejas but later we found out it was GE 414.

Now he is claiming an F-35 comes with a cost of 60 million. if that is so then instead of developing Tejas which is going to cost 60 million or so, why can't we buy 200 F-35 instead of Tejas and replace our MIG 21. Why go for mirage upgrade, in that amount we could have about 40 F-35.

I have a question, how many of you really believe that F -35 costs only 60 million? that is insane.

 

[SpArK]

Hefty Rs 42,000-cr bill for combat aircraft may rise

One eliminated contestant sources the Rafale’s price from the Brazilian media, which has keenly followed the contest between Dassault, Saab and Boeing to sell 36 fighters to the Brazilian Air Force. A detailed story in the Sao Paulo-based daily, Folha de S Paulo, pegged the Rafale bid at $6.2 billion (plus another $4 billion for maintenance over the next 30 years, according to the terms of the Brazilian tender). Quoting French sources, the daily reported the $6.2-billion bid was a discounted price, brought down from $8.2 billion after intense Brazilian pressure on Paris. Extrapolating these figures onto the Indian contract, Dassault’s quote for 126 MMRCAs could be as much as $20 billion, twice the initially estimated figure.

 

[SpArK]

if the MoD committee that is benchmarking the MMRCA concludes Rs 42,000 crore is a decade-old estimation that should be increased due to inflation by 50 per cent, the benchmark for that contract will be pegged at Rs 63,000 crore. When the Eurofighter’s and Dassault’s bids are opened and if both turn out to be notably higher, the MoD will scrap the MMRCA tender. On the other hand, if the lower bid is less than or approximates the benchmark, that bid will be accepted.
The benchmark figure has become crucial for the Typhoon and the Rafale, acknowledged as the most expensive of the six fighters that competed for the IAF’s order. Watching from the sidelines and hoping that the procurement falls through are the four aircraft vendors who were eliminated from the MMRCA contest in April: Russia’s MiG; Sweden’s Saab; and American companies, Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Two of those vendors told Business Standard they believed Eurofighter’s and Dassault’s quotes would be far higher than the benchmark. If they are correct, the long process of obtaining sanctions, tendering, evaluations and field trials would be fruitless.

[/U][/B].

Hefty Rs 42,000-cr bill for combat aircraft may rise

Chances of scrapping the deal altogether????

 

[luckyyy]

Hefty Rs 42,000-cr bill for combat aircraft may rise

Chances of scrapping the deal altogether????

scrapping the deal won't work coz they have no chince but to buy one of the six contenders coz they are the only six available presently...
as far as benchmarking is concern , there is no doubt now that both the present shortlisted will fail...

then i think IAF will again look back into the evaluation results and try to figure out which two next in line fill their requirments at the closest...

to my understanding MIG-35 is still alive !!

or just buy more MKIs...simple as it !!

[note : could it be right to connect this to the resent comments made by the RAF cheif regarding EF outclass mki in resent air excercise , it could be that IAF officials has indicated that if mmrca contenders fail to meet benchmark price IAF will buy mkis .......]