India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

[KS]

that was the seventh fleet and russia sent its nuclear powered submarine trailing it till Jan 1972. IAF pilots were ready to take plane and slam it into US aircraft. it was president nixon's order to send Aircraft carrier in Indian waters.

Thats interesting info.

Is it true - i mean you have any sources - or just made that up after watching Pearl Harbor ?

Remember the fact that they sent a carrier group when China Attacked INdia...in 1962

That was in 1971 when USS Enterprise entered the BoB. and btw in 1962 US helped us against China - only the help reached a bit late to change the outcome of the war.

 

[vamsi]

This is a country that has a GDP $14 trillion, a defence budget in excess of $600 billion and exported around $70 billion in arms. They just signed a deal worth $70 billion with the Saudis, you honestly think that your puny $11 billion matters much to them. Get off your high horse and learn to accept the reality, their defence companies will continue to churn out billions in revenues without your MMRCA contract.

the thing is it doesn't stop there... with the US restricting its defence budget and 11 billion$ isnt the total Net amount, once u buy those jets then again upgrades and their dependency systems after couple of yrs etc.. u need to consider all those whistles too again India is also planning to increase the number from 120 jets to 200 odd once this goes through.. all these will be linked together...

 

[faithfulguy]

the thing is it doesn't stop there... with the US restricting its defence budget and 11 billion$ isnt the total Net amount, once u buy those jets then again upgrades and their dependency systems after couple of yrs etc.. u need to consider all those whistles too again India is also planning to increase the number from 120 jets to 200 odd once this goes through.. all these will be linked together...

This is indeed would be a big deal for the US. But its a even bigger deal for the Europeans, especially the Russians. This could signal the end of the MiG corp. Of the 2 European companies, Dassault would need the deal more than Eurofighter.

 

[dbc]

May be he was arrogant, and why not be, when US is considering redrafting of teh entire export control laws coz they lost in India. I mean US never did it for anyother country. But one loss in MRCA is making you change it.

I mean if its not such a big deal to beg India to buy F-35, why change the laws then??.
I mean isnt it significant enough to say that, we can say we changed you?? but not in arrogance though.

This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.

 

[luckyyy]

This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.

in the present world where self-intrests are the only priority , nobody trusting any other...

 

[Bang Galore]

Beg India? I'm just blown away by the arrogance on display here.

You are? That's proof that you are not spending enough time on this forum.

This is a country that has a GDP $14 trillion, a defence budget in excess of $600 billion and exported around $70 billion in arms. They just signed a deal worth $70 billion with the Saudis, you honestly think that your puny $11 billion matters much to them. Get off your high horse and learn to accept the reality, their defence companies will continue to churn out billions in revenues without your MMRCA contract.

You are absolutely correct. However, that's probably the reason that they didn't get the contract. Not hungry enough, not desperate enough! The Europeans were probably more amenable to pressure since this contract could ostensibly decide future viability of the platform. They really would have no reason to hold back on technology if the alternative would be a complete loss of their industry. Boeing was limited by what the U.S. government decided was enough & faced no imminent financial destruction because of the very reasons pointed out by you (the same holds true about LM though the F-16 was never in any serious consideration). Any Indian order would have been just the icing on the cake, even if a very welcome one.

 

[Bang Galore]

This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.

Unfortunately, it seems that no exception (or not enough of one) was made in this case. Alarm bells should have been ringing when the F-18 fared poorly (reportedly) in the high altitude trials. The trump card for the U.S. was the AESA radar. Unfortunately it seems that were not willing (again reportedly) to share technology completely on that. Once AESA was discounted. the odds were tilted heavily against them. The U.S. barked up the wrong tree with all the stress on a strategic relationship. While most people in India want a close relationship with the U.S. (some members on this forum excepted), no one was just willing to prioritise that over better performing aircrafts. As one former Ambassador to the U.S. put it - " Nobody wants to lose a war to win a strategic ally". Even if that was hyperbole, the U.S. needed to do more than what it did to overcome Indian fears. I had pointed out earlier that I thought it was the U.S.'s contract to lose; unfortunately they did nothing to avert that outcome.

(The recent scams & the rap on the knuckles that the government has been getting from its auditors (CAG) made it almost impossible for the government to overrule IAF's technical evaluation. What was needed was a game changing offer by the Americans to convince the IAF but unfortunately that wasn't forthcoming. Hence the result.)

 

[satishkumarcsc]

This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.

Well US was never a trusted partner. India never cried 'natural partners', 'strategic allies' or anything else. India does things in intrest of its own people and it's perception of the Geo-Political scenario. US already have it's pockets filled for a new entrant.

French and the Europeans have been doing business with India for almost 4 decades to 6 decades. The US just entered the market and crying foul they lost out is not fair. Even the US establishment knows it. EF was a last minute change as we both know who were running upfront. in the last 3 months a lot of things happened that pissed of the Indian think-tanks and I dont think I can say it here and you too know what happened behind the scenes. So I think calling them 'shenanigans' is not right.

 

[ramu]

This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.

India cannot be trusted by those who are inconsistent themselves. India can always be trusted by those whom India trusts. It is a two way highway.

 

[Markus]

This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.

Ok Ok got it. May be the word "beg" was put to incorrect use. But I certainly didn't mean "actual begging" as the beggars do on the road

With the MMRCA gone, I understand F-16 production lines may end in two years until more orders comes in. The F-18 production may continue until few more years or whatever.

The point is that its more strategic than mere military sales. Most military deals are recurring in nature, atleast in the fighter industry. A 126 MMRCA plane contract today has the potential of turning into a 260 plane contract tomorrow, this is something which is already a possibility. This allows the US, the largest weapons manufacturer a stronghold in India, which is the largest weapons importer in the world and which is planning to buy even more from the outside in the future.

US weapons in the hands of the Indian military means cross compliance and inter interoperability of war machines between both the nations, also this increases US leverage in New Delhi, will also open up more opportunities for more US firms to step in and offer even more.

With MMRCA gone for the US, the F-35 for the Indian navy is "the only possibility" for them to hack into the Indian market.

I hope I am clear and this post is also meant for ppl who nodded their heads along with you.

 

[Markus]

No, I don't think US need India to buy the F-35. Why would you buy anything American if you think that America will easily sanction India. You should withdraw all purchases from the US. US defense industry will do just fine without any India purchase.

But if that is the case then why is India buying C17's and C130J's ?

 

[Markus]

This is a country that has a GDP $14 trillion, a defence budget in excess of $600 billion and exported around $70 billion in arms. They just signed a deal worth $70 billion with the Saudis, you honestly think that your puny $11 billion matters much to them. Get off your high horse and learn to accept the reality, their defence companies will continue to churn out billions in revenues without your MMRCA contract.

My horses and quietly sleeping in their stables and I would ask you to keep that numbers to yourself, I play those number games at a level thats probably beyond scope.

Post #1136 is my answer to the remaining part.

Let me know what you dont understand.

 

[Markus]

This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.

Wow, excuse me !!!

If India cannot be trusted then why come to New Delhi, seal a deal on C17's and C130J's and then broadcast a message back home that "I have created 50000 new jobs for Americans" ?

You know whom I am talking of.

 

[Dash]

This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.

There are saner people who are running the US government and not like this comment "India cant be trusted". In last one year you have been given this..

1. 10 Globemaster deal
2. 6 C130J possibly an additional order of additional 6 more
3. 8 P8I posiodons
4. Considering buying some more naval vessels
5. 3 VIP business jets.
6. 99 Engines for LCA Mk2 and oders will surely increase to 200.

and many more to come. The total amount of current dealing stands at more than $11 billion. you have been given more than MRCA.
Remember - Trust is a mutual stuff, you dont trust us in CISMOA, IRTA and other stuff and we dont trust you there. Period.

 

[kingdurgaking]

This is news to me, I do believe exceptions should be made for trusted partners. Unfortunately, Indian MMRCA shenanigans has made it abundantly clear India cannot be trusted.

I think we are not the one who cannot be trusted... it was US who are in deeper relation with Pakistan.. giving new F-16 armed with harpoon for WoT.. dont you think it isnt funny??....

Secondly MMRCA was a very open and transparent process.. if IAF feel Boeing/LM didnt suit there requirement it doesnt mean it is a bad plane... just for Indian geography it didnt suit...

thridly IAF needs plane and not strategic relationship here..... if IAF had new planes and comes with a slam of sanction in future?? what is the need of such plane.... Butter we can go for a trusted partner like France by paying some extra money.... Even IAF will be suspicious about EADS consortium for the sanctions slapped after 1998....

India was alone so far.... and we will be doing fine...