India seals Rs 70,000 crores missile deal with Russia : MOD sources

[Death In Fire]

You were not not willing to spend 10-12 billion dollars for Rafael but You have found money for this deal ? First you ruined French avionics deals and now this. You do take Pakistan way too serious and obsesses over us too much despite claiming every now and then you can crush us like a bug .

Actually S-400 is for $5-6 billion whereas it is $11 billion including SSN,BMPs,Helps.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Source is far from credible and $10 billion will be gigantic waste of money for an air defence system.

But UNI which is a GOI agency has given the SAME news

And why it is a waste ; The way our enemies are expanding their missile arsenal
it is a wise investment

Now our indigeneous AAD and PAD can take their own time to mature

Plus we have NUETRALISED the Pakistan Russia defence deals in ONE GO

It also includes a Nuclear Submarine as well

 

[Maarkhoor]

Sir, Aakash is a short range defense system, 25 KM for air bases , Su 400 has range of 400 KM, Lets not discuss LCA and Arjun here, you call me at my number, I will explain to you. (You should do some research before, you make comments other wise its just waste of time for every one)

Kid India is aquiring 9M96E missile version which is quite similar to akash with a range of 40KM

 

[egodoc222]

You were not not willing to spend 10-12 billion dollars for Rafael but You have found money for this deal ? First you ruined French avionics deals and now this. You do take Pakistan way too serious and obsesses over us too much despite claiming every now and then you can crush us like a bug .

Obsession?lol!!
This is thread on Indian defence news...containing Indian acquisition...look at the no.of Pakistani member flocking here...including you...now who is obsessed with whom?

 

[jaiind]

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Stephen Cohen @Ind4Ever
As i posted in another thread lemme post it again here
India, Russia discuss missile, helicopter, sub deals ahead of Modi-Putin summit | Page 2

The important thing to understand is 2 points only
1. How many command centers India is procuring and planning?
2. Is the radar beyond russians S400 standard, we are augmenting via Israeli LRTR or similar types.

The number of command center tells you how beautifully the whole system can be spread over different ranges and different interjections. The number of regiments/ systems procurement comes after this as that itself tells us the plan of area coverage.

Secondly as i said if we can mix the radar of S400 and also able to input the signals via Israeli Long Range radar, we ultimately upgrade the S400 Triumf to more like S400 Triumf MKI version and enable much better detection and response ability. Its true Russia has good systems and Israeli radars are also world class. So ultimately we should be smart enough to use both for our protection.

From another blog i am posting one coverage picture what i had seen. as well some comments
Comments first
I have been reading up on this. It appears a single regiment of S-400 has 6 batteries maximum. Each battery has 12 launchers maximum. Moscow has 5 regiments of S-400 protecting it, that's 30 batteries maximum. I say maximum because you can have a smaller number of TELs or batteries connected to one command vehicle to make it smaller.

If the IAF requirement is the same, then we will have roughly 2 Russian regiments. Since one command vehicle controls 6 batteries, then we can deploy in just two locations. If IAF settles for lower number of TELs connected to each battery, then maybe another location at best. So it depends on how many command vehicles the IAF purchases. So I'm guessing just 2 or max 3.

And you are right, the battery level FCR can engage 36 targets. But the drawback is a single battery will have a mix of three different classes of missiles, so capability depends on the configuration.

So out of the 12 TELs, you can have one or two TELs carrying the 9M96 for self defence and the remaining can carry a mix of 48N6 and 40N6. So realistic capability depends on the number of larger missiles. The missiles will work as a 3 tier system to stop a single BM. So if we say multiple missiles from each class are required to stop a single BM, then actual BMs intercepted are lower than 36 at once.

Each TEL can carry 4 48N6 or 16 9M96. 40N6 configuration is not known. (courtesy Randomradio)

Indian S-400 is the upgraded version of original S-400 supplied to China. Indian S-400 will have elements of S-500 so it is more of S-450. The added advantage is that the present Radars of Israeli origin which are part of India developed AMD can be easily integrated with this system. This will give us multi-layered true AMD once Indian AMD gest fully operational. (courtesy Vstol Jockey)

An important comment
The S-400 is actually useless in the South. It can only stop missiles of 3000-3500Km range and that's with only one type of missile, the 40N6. So the pk will be much lower than when it is defending Delhi or Mumbai. We actually need the Phase II BMD or the S-500 for cities in the South. The threat to Andamans from Pak also needs the S-500 class. Out of the 7 metros, only Delhi, Mumbai and Pune are protected by the S-400 and Phase I BMD.

As for China, the threat is a minimum of 6000Km. The range from Manchuria to Delhi is 5000Km, to the South it is about 6000Km. This is something the Phase II is supposed to take care of, but we will need a Phase III as well to deal with ICBMs from subs.

Apart from that, the capability from a single battery is limited. At best 10 targets at once, if there is an 11th missile, then the SAM has to react much faster for the 11th one. So a lot of overlapping will be necessary. An area within a 400Km radius will see more than 10 nukes fired at it. Not to mention MIRVs.

Those 12 batteries will not cover all of India. It will cover only the most vulnerable sites with overlapping. Russia's initial projection was 56 regiments with 8 launchers each. Moscow alone has 5 regiments protecting it. That's why I have a feeling at least 6 of those batteries will protect Delhi and Mumbai, which obviously also cover the most important airbases like Pune and Bareilly at long range. The remaining 6 may cover individual sites like Assam, Rajasthan/Gujarat, Bihar and Kashmir with plenty of overlapping.

We will have to rely on Phase II for Pan-India coverage. (courtesy Randomradio)

I have done a small study about the deployment of S-400 which is represented below. Each circle has a radius of 400kms. This deployment pattern ensures that it covers the arcs of every trajectory of a ballistic missile from Pakistan & China towards our major cities by at least two batteries and we get to cover complete airspace to west of Indus river within Pakistan, North of Brahmaputra river in China besides protecting all our offshore assets on western and eastern sea board. This deployment pattern also ensures that most assets like AWACs will have to be flown outside the range of these missiles rendering them ineffective for Pakistan as well as China and deny them a peep into our territory. This pattern will also provide cover to our IBGs wherever they are deployed on Pakistan border. 12 batteries will only help us defend the mainland without covering the offshore & enemy territory. We can remove one of the batteries with red circle in case we decide to cover only our own territory.
We will need 13 batteries to cover whole of Indian mainland with the ability to maintain deterrence within the enemy territory. The Andamans can be defended by Barak-8 missiles; however we must negotiate with Russia to induct at least four S-500 batteries out of a total of 12. These must be placed in Punjab, Gujrat, Southern part and North-East to be able to cover larger areas inside the enemy territory. Induction of S-500 will allow us to spare one battery of S-400 for Andamans out of 13. The S-500 is still under development and is likely to be available by end 2017. We must negotiate with Russia to have last four batteries to be delivered to be S-500. (courtesy Vstol Jockey)

S-400 envelope over India

The above points and the picture seems to suggest the wide discrepancies as well as debates surrounding the role and efficacy of Triumf system or Triumf MKI system.
One thing is clear that a chinese BM with range more than 6k say launched from SCS or from deeper chinese provinces will essentially challenge our system.
Unless a dedicated satellite system detects and gives us a say 150-180 sec window. Again if its N armed, we would like to engage it at the highest altitude. Thus we need a sure shot kill vehicle or proximity explosion but at very high altitudes like 80-100 kms plus. Ala THAAD.. thats where evolution of S400 triumf MKI needs to be headed with at least 1 or 2 missile type developed for such a ICBM range Mach 20+ missile interception at very high altitudes.

Members are requested to pls share their views and comment on....

Additionally the price of INR 70K crores clearly implies the encirclement is proper and yes checnes of India getting additional S500 tech or perhaps a newer high altitude interception missile has increased. What i would love to see is a much larger number of command vehicles as i mentioned in point 1.

Good going and i hope we get details of the purchases soon

@Abingdonboy

 

[egodoc222]

Kid India is aquiring 9M96E missile version which is quite similar to akash with a range of 40KM

When u talk about India you need to consider the geographic size of the country!! Large country require many systems...we do it in a budget way...mix of home grown with phoren mal!!

 

[ito]

This changes the game fundamentally.. Strategists in Pakistan would have to redraw their offensive / defensive strategies.

There was never a game between India and Pakistan. The only credible deterrence that Pakistan has is its nukes. On conventional weapons...there is never a match.

 

[Agent_47]

You were not not willing to spend 10-12 billion dollars for Rafael but You have found money for this deal ? First you ruined French avionics deals and now this. You do take Pakistan way too serious and obsesses over us too much despite claiming every now and then you can crush us like a bug .

Believing everything is about you is a psychological disorder not our problem.

This is thread on Indian defence news...containing Indian acquisition...look at the no.of Pakistani member flocking here...including you...now who is obsessed with whom?

And you are in pakistani forum.

 

[mpk1988]

@Stephen Cohen @Ind4Ever
As i posted in another thread lemme post it again here
India, Russia discuss missile, helicopter, sub deals ahead of Modi-Putin summit | Page 2

The important thing to understand is 2 points only
1. How many command centers India is procuring and planning?
2. Is the radar beyond russians S400 standard, we are augmenting via Israeli LRTR or similar types.

The number of command center tells you how beautifully the whole system can be spread over different ranges and different interjections. The number of regiments/ systems procurement comes after this as that itself tells us the plan of area coverage.

Secondly as i said if we can mix the radar of S400 and also able to input the signals via Israeli Long Range radar, we ultimately upgrade the S400 Triumf to more like S400 Triumf MKI version and enable much better detection and response ability. Its true Russia has good systems and Israeli radars are also world class. So ultimately we should be smart enough to use both for our protection.

From another blog i am posting one coverage picture what i had seen. as well some comments
Comments first
I have been reading up on this. It appears a single regiment of S-400 has 6 batteries maximum. Each battery has 12 launchers maximum. Moscow has 5 regiments of S-400 protecting it, that's 30 batteries maximum. I say maximum because you can have a smaller number of TELs or batteries connected to one command vehicle to make it smaller.

If the IAF requirement is the same, then we will have roughly 2 Russian regiments. Since one command vehicle controls 6 batteries, then we can deploy in just two locations. If IAF settles for lower number of TELs connected to each battery, then maybe another location at best. So it depends on how many command vehicles the IAF purchases. So I'm guessing just 2 or max 3.

And you are right, the battery level FCR can engage 36 targets. But the drawback is a single battery will have a mix of three different classes of missiles, so capability depends on the configuration.

So out of the 12 TELs, you can have one or two TELs carrying the 9M96 for self defence and the remaining can carry a mix of 48N6 and 40N6. So realistic capability depends on the number of larger missiles. The missiles will work as a 3 tier system to stop a single BM. So if we say multiple missiles from each class are required to stop a single BM, then actual BMs intercepted are lower than 36 at once.

Each TEL can carry 4 48N6 or 16 9M96. 40N6 configuration is not known. (courtesy Randomradio)

Indian S-400 is the upgraded version of original S-400 supplied to China. Indian S-400 will have elements of S-500 so it is more of S-450. The added advantage is that the present Radars of Israeli origin which are part of India developed AMD can be easily integrated with this system. This will give us multi-layered true AMD once Indian AMD gest fully operational. (courtesy Vstol Jockey)

An important comment
The S-400 is actually useless in the South. It can only stop missiles of 3000-3500Km range and that's with only one type of missile, the 40N6. So the pk will be much lower than when it is defending Delhi or Mumbai. We actually need the Phase II BMD or the S-500 for cities in the South. The threat to Andamans from Pak also needs the S-500 class. Out of the 7 metros, only Delhi, Mumbai and Pune are protected by the S-400 and Phase I BMD.

As for China, the threat is a minimum of 6000Km. The range from Manchuria to Delhi is 5000Km, to the South it is about 6000Km. This is something the Phase II is supposed to take care of, but we will need a Phase III as well to deal with ICBMs from subs.

Apart from that, the capability from a single battery is limited. At best 10 targets at once, if there is an 11th missile, then the SAM has to react much faster for the 11th one. So a lot of overlapping will be necessary. An area within a 400Km radius will see more than 10 nukes fired at it. Not to mention MIRVs.

Those 12 batteries will not cover all of India. It will cover only the most vulnerable sites with overlapping. Russia's initial projection was 56 regiments with 8 launchers each. Moscow alone has 5 regiments protecting it. That's why I have a feeling at least 6 of those batteries will protect Delhi and Mumbai, which obviously also cover the most important airbases like Pune and Bareilly at long range. The remaining 6 may cover individual sites like Assam, Rajasthan/Gujarat, Bihar and Kashmir with plenty of overlapping.

We will have to rely on Phase II for Pan-India coverage. (courtesy Randomradio)

I have done a small study about the deployment of S-400 which is represented below. Each circle has a radius of 400kms. This deployment pattern ensures that it covers the arcs of every trajectory of a ballistic missile from Pakistan & China towards our major cities by at least two batteries and we get to cover complete airspace to west of Indus river within Pakistan, North of Brahmaputra river in China besides protecting all our offshore assets on western and eastern sea board. This deployment pattern also ensures that most assets like AWACs will have to be flown outside the range of these missiles rendering them ineffective for Pakistan as well as China and deny them a peep into our territory. This pattern will also provide cover to our IBGs wherever they are deployed on Pakistan border. 12 batteries will only help us defend the mainland without covering the offshore & enemy territory. We can remove one of the batteries with red circle in case we decide to cover only our own territory.
We will need 13 batteries to cover whole of Indian mainland with the ability to maintain deterrence within the enemy territory. The Andamans can be defended by Barak-8 missiles; however we must negotiate with Russia to induct at least four S-500 batteries out of a total of 12. These must be placed in Punjab, Gujrat, Southern part and North-East to be able to cover larger areas inside the enemy territory. Induction of S-500 will allow us to spare one battery of S-400 for Andamans out of 13. The S-500 is still under development and is likely to be available by end 2017. We must negotiate with Russia to have last four batteries to be delivered to be S-500. (courtesy Vstol Jockey)

S-400 envelope over India

The above points and the picture seems to suggest the wide discrepancies as well as debates surrounding the role and efficacy of Triumf system or Triumf MKI system.
One thing is clear that a chinese BM with range more than 6k say launched from SCS or from deeper chinese provinces will essentially challenge our system.
Unless a dedicated satellite system detects and gives us a say 150-180 sec window. Again if its N armed, we would like to engage it at the highest altitude. Thus we need a sure shot kill vehicle or proximity explosion but at very high altitudes like 80-100 kms plus. Ala THAAD.. thats where evolution of S400 triumf MKI needs to be headed with at least 1 or 2 missile type developed for such a ICBM range Mach 20+ missile interception at very high altitudes.

Members are requested to pls share their views and comment on....

Additionally the price of INR 70K crores clearly implies the encirclement is proper and yes checnes of India getting additional S500 tech or perhaps a newer high altitude interception missile has increased. What i would love to see is a much larger number of command vehicles as i mentioned in point 1.

Good going and i hope we get details of the purchases soon

@Abingdonboy

Great Post!!!

 

[Bratva]

Believing everything is about you is a psychological disorder not our problem.

And you are in pakistani forum.

Psychology dictates this deal was negotiated and signed soon after SU-35 news.Money was found rather quickly unlike Rafael where india was stubborn to yield a similar amount. So who is more obsessed can be seen pretty clearly/. Correct me if I'm wrong ?

 

[egodoc222]

Believing everything is about you is a psychological disorder not our problem.

And you are in pakistani forum.

I don't understand why you guys are jealous? You can't handle a system like this!!

 

[graphican]

There was never a game between India and Pakistan. The only credible deterrence that Pakistan has is its nukes. On conventional weapons...there is never a match.

There were no nukes in 1965 when Pakistan defended itself against Indian conventional attack. But that is not the point of discussion here, S-400 can also take down cruise missiles and this is where it is changing the game.

 

[ito]

There were no nukes in 1965 when Pakistan defended itself against Indian conventional attack. But that is not the point of discussion here, S-400 can also take down cruise missiles and this is where it is changing the game.

1965 and even 1971 was a different era. The defense spending of both India and Pakistan were almost similar in those days, while it is quite different today. India spends 7 to 8 times on defense than Pakistan's...and the difference is growing very fast. Modern weapons and technology is quite costly today.

 

[egodoc222]

Psychology dictates this deal was negotiated and signed soon after SU-35 news.Money was found rather quickly unlike Rafael where india was stubborn to yield a similar amount. So who is more obsessed can be seen pretty clearly/. Correct me if I'm wrong ?

Nothing youve written is of analyst quality...s400 is system with stratergic role and with political implications...talks must have gone for a while through back channel...and wasn't revealed until unless both parties were sure of a positive outcome!