India’s military strength on the rise : Chinese media

[GreenFoe]

@Joe Shearer

Your argument about the BJP softening down is endearing but entirely mistaken. It is like arguing that a sadist and torturing monster is now reformed because he cuts off a finger, where earlier he would cut off the whole hand. Not much of an improvement, except to those hopefully looking for signs of humanity that they can display to their sceptical proximity.

Well i don't agree with your argument ,the fact is bjp used ram mandir as a tool to get to power because it was impossible to defeat the congress otherwise .Congress used sikh hatred in 1984 election not because its love for Pre Independence congress hardliners ideology or hindutva but because it required votes.These things political parties do when society is not well privileged to know or own the facts.



I don't think there is chances of wide spread riot like 2002 or 84 not because bjp or congress have become less power lovers or power has become a poison for them but because people at present know that it will harm our country whose social contract is based upon secularism(added by indira in 70's) .

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer

Well i don't agree with your argument ,the fact is bjp used ram mandir as a tool to get to power because it was impossible to defeat the congress otherwise .

How amoral can one get?

This is the equivalent of saying that XYZ raped and killed a woman because it was impossible to get the money he wanted otherwise.

Is defeating the Congress, was defeating the Congress so important, so overwhelming a necessity that the supreme crime of destroying the mosque and pushing the Ram Mandir was necessary? Was the consequent chain of events, the riots in protest, the slaughter of Muslims in Bombay, the counter-attack by Dawood Ibrahim with bombs killing and maiming hundreds, the mounting anger in both communities against the other, the repeated visits by sevaks to Ayodhya, the Godhra incident, the Ahmedabad riots, the attacks on Akshardham and on Parliament, and in Bangalore on the IISc, justified by the BJP's need to get to power?

I am sorry, but this is a singularly foolish argument.

Congress used sikh hatred in 1984 election not because its love for Pre Independence congress hardliners ideology or hindutva but because it required votes.These things political parties do when society is not well privileged to know or own the facts.

Are you seriously saying that the Congress also instigated riots against the Sikhs in order to win an election, or do you think that these riots were engineered by Congress hoodlums to take revenge for the killing of Mrs. Gandhi, with no thought for the political consequences, good or bad?

I don't think there is chances of wide spread riot like 2002 or 84 not because bjp or congress have become less power lovers or power has become a poison for them but because people at present know that it will harm our country whose social contract is based upon secularism(added by indira in 70's) .

And on what do you base this hope of greater maturity? The hugely increased number of Internet Hindus?

 

[GreenFoe]

@Joe Shearer

I am sorry, but this is a singularly foolish argument.

The World works like that people have their own truths and falses , moral is a relative thing .I'm not a religious goon and so i view the point that way some one may view the other way and so on .

Are you seriously saying that the Congress also instigated riots against the Sikhs in order to win an election, or do you think that these riots were engineered by Congress hoodlums to take revenge for the killing of Mrs. Gandhi, with no thought for the political consequences, good or bad?

LOL,then we can also say ram mandir was a issue of pride and faith and so on ......... that is complete hypocrite bigotry.

And on what do you base this hope of greater maturity? The hugely increased number of Internet Hindus?

Most of the top bjp leaders tend to get away from their anti-muslims stances.
They don't talk now of 370,ram mandir,etc old rhetoric's.
etc...etc..etc..

What more do you want ?Everything takes time ,we don't have much better options.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer

The World works like that people have their own truths and falses , moral is a relative thing .I'm not a religious goon and so i view the point that way some one may view the other way and so on .

We could not be further apart then. I believe that there is right and that there is wrong. Committing a crime to win an election is wrong. I don't know that morality is relative. It sounds truly appallingly amoral. I doubt that you can follow a policy of the sort you outlined in real life

LOL,then we can also say ram mandir was a issue of pride and faith and so on ......... that is complete hypocrite bigotry.

This is not a symmetric argument. Saying that the Congress did not stage the Sikh riots for the sake of winning an election does not imply that the BJP staging the Babri Masjid destruction was not for the sake of winning an election. Neither fact is connected to the other. They do not depend on each other for their existence.

Most of the top bjp leaders tend to get away from their anti-muslims stances.
They don't talk now of 370,ram mandir,etc old rhetoric's.
etc...etc..etc..

The question is of reliability. Can we rely on such people not to change their stance to an extremely prejudiced communal stand in mid-tenure?

What more do you want ?Everything takes time ,we don't have much better options.

Rectitude.

 

[godofwar]

Is defeating the Congress, was defeating the Congress so important, so overwhelming a necessity that the supreme crime of destroying the mosque and pushing the Ram Mandir was necessary? Was the consequent chain of events, the riots in protest, the slaughter of Muslims in Bombay, the counter-attack by Dawood Ibrahim with bombs killing and maiming hundreds, the mounting anger in both communities against the other, the repeated visits by sevaks to Ayodhya, the Godhra incident, the Ahmedabad riots, the attacks on Akshardham and on Parliament, and in Bangalore on the IISc, justified by the BJP's need to get to power?

So its a fact that none of the above would have happened if Babri Masjid wasn't demolished?

I am sorry, but this is a singularly foolish argument.

The hugely increased number of Internet Hindus?

I am a Hindu and I find use of this term for allegedly extremist Hindus offensive.Should people refer to everybody who seems extremist to them as religion preceded by the word "Internet".Or only minorities are allowed to have religious sensibilities in India ?

Rectitude.

Whaddya say Internet Bong ?

 

[GreenFoe]

We could not be further apart then. I believe that there is right and that there is wrong. Committing a crime to win an election is wrong. I don't know that morality is relative. It sounds truly appallingly amoral. I doubt that you can follow a policy of the sort you outlined in real life

Well it could be in your opinion .I do also believe in right and wrong but my right can be your wrong and vice verse .Political parties follow hypocrisy and that is well know But you see we have to choose one or the other .I view BJP as a normal political party which comes with its pros and cons ,you view it as evil Goliath and thus we have different opinions.

This is not a symmetric argument. Saying that the Congress did not stage the Sikh riots for the sake of winning an election does not imply that the BJP staging the Babri Masjid destruction was not for the sake of winning an election. Neither fact is connected to the other. They do not depend on each other for their existence.

Yes agree on the note that initial ideas of most could be different Mrs.G's murder vs faith but eventually both took it as their election advantage .When a mob burns a village it doesn't mean that everyone burned the village because of same reasons,we could do the same work while we can have different reasons .

The question is of reliability. Can we rely on such people not to change their stance to an extremely prejudiced communal stand in mid-tenure?

For that we have something called logic ! what will BJP gain from polarizing in 2014+?

Rectitude.

complete Rectitude is an utopian concept.

 

[Joe Shearer]

So its a fact that none of the above would have happened if Babri Masjid wasn't demolished?

Why don't you draw your own conclusions from the facts? The rest of your post gives a clear indication of what you hope to achieve by this faux-naive question.

I am a Hindu and I find use of this term for allegedly extremist Hindus offensive.Should people refer to everybody who seems extremist to them as religion preceded by the word "Internet".Or only minorities are allowed to have religious sensibilities in India ?

Ironic.

The term was coined by a Hindu. Perhaps you were unaware of that. This might help your learning

Meet the Internet Hindus

And since you are new to this forum, you obviously do not know that I used the term Internet Muslim to refer to egregiously opinionated Muslim bigots and fanatics. But you don't want to know what doesn't fit into your preconceived notions, do you?

Whaddya say Internet Bong ?

To you?

Not much, actually. And unlikely to have much to say in future, too.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well it could be in your opinion .I do also believe in right and wrong but my right can be your wrong and vice verse .Political parties follow hypocrisy and that is well know But you see we have to choose one or the other .I view BJP as a normal political party which comes with its pros and cons ,you view it as evil Goliath and thus we have different opinions.

Not as a Goliath, no. But a stunted entity peopled with those who have sour, embittered personalities, and a deep-seated hatred for others, yes.

Your cynical view of the alternatives as being a collection of equally mendacious and meretricious organisations, and the choice being one of selecting the least offensive, is disturbing, to say the least. In the face of such utter indifference to any moral content in public life, it is difficult to say anything worthwhile or reasonable.

Yes agree on the note that initial ideas of most could be different Mrs.G's murder vs faith but eventually both took it as their election advantage .When a mob burns a village it doesn't mean that everyone burned the village because of same reasons,we could do the same work while we can have different reasons .

This reduces to the same despairing view of the world being completely devoid of virtue or upright behaviour, and of the choices being choices between various degrees of evil. How sad!

For that we have something called logic ! what will BJP gain from polarizing in 2014+?

Logic does not enter into theology, which is what the BJP is founded upon, through its sponsor, the RSS. Logic does not enter into communal hatred and the politics of excluding others, which is what the BJP represents. While the BJP loses from polarising the people, it is helpless; polarising is what it is all about, and it is unable to act in a different way.

complete Rectitude is an utopian concept.

Is even an attempt at rectitude too much to ask? It seems to be an insuperably difficult task to you, for reasons which are difficult to fathom.

 

[Hulk]

@Joe Shearer







How amoral can one get?

This is the equivalent of saying that XYZ raped and killed a woman because it was impossible to get the money he wanted otherwise.

Is defeating the Congress, was defeating the Congress so important, so overwhelming a necessity that the supreme crime of destroying the mosque and pushing the Ram Mandir was necessary? Was the consequent chain of events, the riots in protest, the slaughter of Muslims in Bombay, the counter-attack by Dawood Ibrahim with bombs killing and maiming hundreds, the mounting anger in both communities against the other, the repeated visits by sevaks to Ayodhya, the Godhra incident, the Ahmedabad riots, the attacks on Akshardham and on Parliament, and in Bangalore on the IISc, justified by the BJP's need to get to power?

I am sorry, but this is a singularly foolish argument.



Are you seriously saying that the Congress also instigated riots against the Sikhs in order to win an election, or do you think that these riots were engineered by Congress hoodlums to take revenge for the killing of Mrs. Gandhi, with no thought for the political consequences, good or bad?



And on what do you base this hope of greater maturity? The hugely increased number of Internet Hindus?

Joe, BJP started with a right wing party because that was faster way to success and initially a lot of Hindus fell for it. However the Hindus soon lost interest in Ram mandir issue and it went to downward spiral and almost reached a dead end. The reason being for majority of Hindus care more for their daily needs.

Having given some context, BJP now only cares for getting in power and thinking they have any plans to annex any nation will be giving them too much credit to their words. Do some of them have a wish? yes maybe, are they willing to go to any extent to get their dream fulfilled. Absolutely not. The annexing of Pakistan in India will be in the lowest priority of BJP and as many said here, if they fight elections on that issue they will lose big time. Get real, who would like a nation which is having cancer of fundamentalism. If it joins India, it will infect India with same cancer.

Na re baba Na. Maaf Karo

 

[Joe Shearer]

Thank Heaven there is someone rational to talk to. Of late, I have increasingly felt like a character in a horror film, where the zombies rise out of the ground, and lurch inexorably towards the horror-struck townspeople.

Joe, BJP started with a right wing party because that was faster way to success and initially a lot of Hindus fell for it. However the Hindus soon lost interest in Ram mandir issue and it went to downward spiral and almost reached a dead end. The reason being for majority of Hindus care more for their daily needs.

Meanwhile the turds had done a lot of damage to the social fabric of the country.

The Congress is a cynical, manipulative bunch of power-brokers. They are far less dangerous for the country, however, than these sinister and blind bigots who do not realise that what they ignite today will burn on for decades.

Having given some context, BJP now only cares for getting in power.....

Unfortunately, their leaders today are those who led the anti-Muslim campaigns of yesterday, and so they are damned in the eyes of the Muslim segment. That will make it difficult for them to come to power. An example is the resistance to Modi on the grounds of his being communal.

...and thinking they have any plans to annex any nation will be giving them too much credit to their words. Do some of them have a wish? yes maybe, are they willing to go to any extent to get their dream fulfilled. Absolutely not. The annexing of Pakistan in India will be in the lowest priority of BJP and as many said here, if they fight elections on that issue they will lose big time. Get real, who would like a nation which is having cancer of fundamentalism. If it joins India, it will infect India with same cancer.

Na re baba Na. Maaf Karo

Actually, we had gone quite a bit away from this issue of the hypothetical reunification of Pakistan and India.

If there are some elements of the Indian polity, specifically, the BJP, still interested in Akhand Bharat and all that lunacy, they will be cooled down by the rest of the country. I hope.

My own views on reunification are to be seen in print in Aeronaut's thread of last year, which broke into spasmodic life this year. There is no difference between your views and mine.

 

[Hulk]

Thank Heaven there is someone rational to talk to. Of late, I have increasingly felt like a character in a horror film, where the zombies rise out of the ground, and lurch inexorably towards the horror-struck townspeople.

Meanwhile the turds had done a lot of damage to the social fabric of the country.

The Congress is a cynical, manipulative bunch of power-brokers. They are far less dangerous for the country, however, than these sinister and blind bigots who do not realise that what they ignite today will burn on for decades.



Unfortunately, their leaders today are those who led the anti-Muslim campaigns of yesterday, and so they are damned in the eyes of the Muslim segment. That will make it difficult for them to come to power. An example is the resistance to Modi on the grounds of his being communal.



Actually, we had gone quite a bit away from this issue of the hypothetical reunification of Pakistan and India.

If there are some elements of the Indian polity, specifically, the BJP, still interested in Akhand Bharat and all that lunacy, they will be cooled down by the rest of the country. I hope.

My own views on reunification are to be seen in print in Aeronaut's thread of last year, which broke into spasmodic life this year. There is no difference between your views and mine.

If I were BJP, I will reach to Muslims make them feel they will have no negative impact if they come to power. BJP should use governance more than communal card. Trust me Indians do not like communal politics, you can fool them once but not all the time. I will support them for better governance but not for communal politics.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Thank Heaven there is someone rational to talk to. Of late, I have increasingly felt like a character in a horror film, where the zombies rise out of the ground, and lurch inexorably towards the horror-struck townspeople.

If I were BJP, I will reach to Muslims make them feel they will have no negative impact if they come to power. BJP should use governance more than communal card. Trust me Indians do not like communal politics, you can fool them once but not all the time. I will support them for better governance but not for communal politics.

I absolutely agree.

However, unlike you, I am less hopeful. It will be a blessing to be proved wrong, to be in a position to say to you that you were proved right.

 

[GreenFoe]

Not as a Goliath, no. But a stunted entity peopled with those who have sour, embittered personalities, and a deep-seated hatred for others, yes.

Your cynical view of the alternatives as being a collection of equally mendacious and meretricious organisations, and the choice being one of selecting the least offensive, is disturbing, to say the least. In the face of such utter indifference to any moral content in public life, it is difficult to say anything worthwhile or reasonable.

.

again your views show hatred rather than practicality of which i can't do much .

This reduces to the same despairing view of the world being completely devoid of virtue or upright behaviour, and of the choices being choices between various degrees of evil. How sad!

.

That's how it is ,most people don't have a virtue or upright behavior in BJP or the congress but this is how political parties are ,isn't it ?

Logic does not enter into theology, which is what the BJP is founded upon, through its sponsor, the RSS. Logic does not enter into communal hatred and the politics of excluding others, which is what the BJP represents. While the BJP loses from polarising the people, it is helpless; polarising is what it is all about, and it is unable to act in a different way.
.

RSS was not founded for theology, if you can go into history .It was a riot protection force which led to a socio-semi-religious organization with hard nationalistic thoughts like hindutva.

Is even an attempt at rectitude too much to ask? It seems to be an insuperably difficult task to you, for reasons which are difficult to fathom.

They have shown enough rectitude in my opinion there are some people who don't like to hear/see it ,what can i do ?
However in future they have to make many changes and reconciliations upon topics .



@indianrabbit

Thank Heaven there is someone rational to talk to. Of late, I have increasingly felt like a character in a horror film, where the zombies rise out of the ground, and lurch inexorably towards the horror-struck townspeople.


If I were BJP, I will reach to Muslims make them feel they will have no negative impact if they come to power. BJP should use governance more than communal card. Trust me Indians do not like communal politics, you can fool them once but not all the time. I will support them for better governance but not for communal politics.

I agree on this note but if someone already have strong prejudice like some indian muslims and pro left activist's, BJP can't do much.I have seen M's saying whatsoever bjp do be it development or reconciliation they will not vote for them .

 

[godofwar]

Why don't you draw your own conclusions from the facts? The rest of your post gives a clear indication of what you hope to achieve by this faux-naive question.

Why won't you admit your mistake instead of running way from the question like that other thread when I first came across you.
If you want to know my conclusions, then ask for it.Meanwhile answer the question. Or don't.
But please don't dance around it posing counter-questions without first answering the point made by me.That is not how a discussion works.

The term was coined by a Hindu. Perhaps you were unaware of that. This might help your learning

Meet the Internet Hindus

And since you are new to this forum, you obviously do not know that I used the term Internet Muslim to refer to egregiously opinionated Muslim bigots and fanatics. But you don't want to know what doesn't fit into your preconceived notions, do you?

Using the same insulting term for Muslims is no excuse for using it for Hindus, is it dear ? You throw words like faux naivety around...perhaps you should read your own posts sometimes ?
And I know who coined this term and don't care about that person's religion, a Hindu or Muslim.It is called Secularism.Which is something you claim to stand for.
Being on this forum for so long, you seem to have picked up a few bad habits of Pakistanis yourself.

To you?

Not much, actually. And unlikely to have much to say in future, too.

You can keep running away, but I won't stop posing questions.

Wanna make a rebuttal Internet Bangali ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

again your views show hatred rather than practicality of which i can't do much .

What does that mean? "I can't answer your arguments, so I won't answer your arguments."

Have you heard of something called a circular argument?

That's how it is ,most people don't have a virtue or upright behavior in BJP or the congress but this is how political parties are ,isn't it ?

They don't have to be.

It's like corruption in the generic sense. It wouldn't exist unless we encouraged it by our own behaviour. The political parties, too, get what they get because we don't punish them for deviant and socially harmful behaviour.

Your counsel of despair is the path of least resistance, which is precisely why we are where we are.

RSS was not founded for theology, if you can go into history .It was a riot protection force which led to a socio-semi-religious organization with hard nationalistic thoughts like hindutva.

Oh, really? I would like to know more. Can you cite your sources for such an insight?

The RSS was founded in 1925 by K. B. Hedgewar, a revolutionary and doctor from Nagpur, as a socio-cultural group in British India, to counter British colonialism in India and suppress Muslim separatism.

RSS volunteers participated in various political and social movements including the Indian independence movement and the group became an extremely prominent Hindu nationalist group in India. By the 1990s, the group had established numerous schools, charities and clubs to spread its ideological beliefs.

Nothing here. Nope.

They have shown enough rectitude in my opinion there are some people who don't like to hear/see it ,what can i do ?
However in future they have to make many changes and reconciliations upon topics .

Let me understand this. They have shown rectitude, but they have to change some more.

Right. Good enough.

Why not wait until they make these changes to issue them certificates?

@indianrabbit

I agree on this note but if someone already have strong prejudice like some indian muslims and pro left activist's, BJP can't do much.I have seen M's saying whatsoever bjp do be it development or reconciliation they will not vote for them .

Convenient.

Development and reconciliation are such reasonable words. So much nicer than ethnic cleansing, communal rioting, Islamophobia.....

The M's you have 'seen' saying these bizarre things might have been thinking about the ethnic cleansing, the communal rioting and the Islamophobia when they said that they wouldn't have anything to do with the BJP.

Sort of putting the cart before the horse, to lament how the M's (lovely usage, so delicate, so discreet, and so carefully avoiding a word that obviously disturbs you) do not react to a hypothetical future, ignoring their frightened and shocked response to a cold-bloodedly vicious past and present.