India relations with GCC(middle East)

[Saif al-Arab]

Also as you mentioned about pre-Islamic era of Arabia i would like to share some ties.

This might be the only post where we disagree. To me this information provided sounds inaccurate and not based on factual history. At least already some of it I can be disproved, for instance the theory about Semites and the claim of Sanskrit being the main language of Basra and the region. This is absolutely false as the main language back then in the Near East, most of the Arab world and ME was the Semitic language called Aramaic. It was the lingua franca of the Near East.

You can read more here below:

Aramaic language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aramaic was the native language of Prophet Isa (ra) or Jesus as he is known as in Christianity.

Here is an Christian Arab Church hymn performed in the mountains of Lebanon in a church or monastery.

Regarding the similarity of words and their origins, it's hard to tell and one should ask an linguist. For sure there are common words that derive from the same source in both Arabic and Sanskrit although the languages belong to two different language families. But in the end ALL languages derive from the same source and all were invented by people.

Lastly buddy, can you tell me if Hala al-Turk sang Hindi with a good accent? The Indians commenting in the Youtube video claim so but I do not know as I do not speak Hindi.

Maybe @levina will know and this thread (since she commented) might interest her a lot.

Cheers again.

P.S.: It's truth that Semitic speaking peoples in Arabia developed the Arabian horse. Arguably the most famous horse in the world.

Arabian horse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Arabians love horses in general and I am no different.

Unlike popular belief,India has good relations with all Muslim countries(with 1 exception)

This is correct. India on its own alone hosts almost 200 million Muslims. Only Indonesia has a bigger Muslim population. A country (Indonesia) where Islam was spread by Arab merchants too mainly due to trade and today 10 million locals have Arab ancestry in Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei etc.

@Indos

The whole area from Arabia/Arab world/ME to India/South Asia to South East Asia has millennium old relations on many fronts. If you study some of the many similarities like we just did (amateurs and not experts in history) we could already quickly notice similarities on all fronts. Scary actually but it also shows how ignorant many of us have become in this age that we embrace the stereotypes instead of the many things that unite us. It's even worse in the Arab world sadly and there the closeness is even greater obviously. People sadly in general have a very, very small knowledge about history and if you don't know history you are a poorer person IMO.

 

[Sam.]

This might be the only post where we disagree. To me this information provided sounds inaccurate and not based on factual history. At least already some of it I can be disproved, for instance the theory about Semites and the claim of Sanskrit being the main language of Basra and the region. This is absolutely false as the main language back then in the Near East, most of the Arab world and ME was the Semitic language called Aramaic. It was the lingua franca of the Near East.

You can read more here below:

Aramaic language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aramaic was the native language of Prophet Isa (ra) or Jesus as he is known as in Christianity.

Here is an Christian Arab Church hymn performed in the mountains of Lebanon in a church or monastery.

Regarding the similarity of words and their origins, it's hard to tell and one should ask an linguist. For sure there are common words that derive from the same source in both Arabic and Sanskrit although the languages belong to two different language families. But in the end ALL languages derive from the same source and all were invented by people.

Lastly buddy, can you tell me if Hala al-Turk sang Hindi with a good accent? The Indians commenting in the Youtube video claim so but I do not know as I do not speak Hindi.

Maybe @levina will know and this thread (since she commented) might interest her a lot.

Cheers again.

P.S.: It's truth that Semitic speaking peoples in Arabia developed the Arabian horse. Arguably the most famous horse in the world.

Arabian horse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Arabians love horses in general and I am no different.



This is correct. India on its own alone hosts almost 200 million Muslims. Only Indonesia has a bigger Muslim population.

Well lets agree to disagree

Sanskirt is far old language that's why i said derived from it but who knows all i know is similarity is there.

Yes her accent is quite factual besides the few worlds like akele ( i would say 95% same)

Levina is from kerla and she doesn't speak hindi

Oh also in few year we will have largest Muslim population then we will claim ourself to be fortress of islam and claim mecca and medina

Indians are coming

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Well lets agree to disagree

Sanskirt is far old language that's why i said derived from it but who knows all i know is similarity is there.

Yes her accent is quite factual besides the few worlds like akele ( i would say 95% same)

Levina is from kerla and she doesn't speak hindi

Oh also in few year we will have largest Muslim population then we will claim ourself to be fortress of islam and claim mecca and medina

Indians are coming

Yes, let's do that.

You can see a list of the oldest attested (written) languages in the world here below.

List of languages by first written accounts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Almost all are found in the Arab world, especially the Near East.

The oldest written Semitic language (that Aramaic, Arabic etc. descend from) is Akkadian and the first written records in that language were written 4400 years ago in Mesopotamia. Sumerian (a language isolate originating in Southern Iraq) is some 300 years older. Similarly Ancient Egyptians (Egyptian hieroglyphs) spoke an Hamito-Semitic (Afro-Asiatic) language too.

List of languages by first written accounts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But there is no doubt that Sanskrit is also a very old language and it might have influenced certain languages in the ME and vice versa. That I do not know with certainty.



There are already a lot of Indian Muslim pilgrims in KSA. You guys should keep a look at your population and prevent it from becoming too big and thus unsustainable but it's not like there are few of us Arabs either, lol. We are quickly approaching 500 million and I doubt that the increasing populations are necessarily a good thing.

Lastly do you guys have a similar mixed rice dish such as Kabsa for instance?

It' damn tasty.
Another nice discussion.

 

[Sam.]

Yes, let's do that.

You can see a list of the oldest attested (written) languages in the world here below.

List of languages by first written accounts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Almost all are found in the Arab world, especially the Near East.

The oldest written Semitic language (that Aramaic, Arabic etc. descend from) is Akkadian and the first written records in that language were written 4400 years ago in Mesopotamia. Sumerian (a language isolate originating in Southern Iraq) is some 300 years older. Similarly Ancient Egyptians (Egyptian hieroglyphs) spoke an Hamito-Semitic (Afro-Asiatic) language too.

List of languages by first written accounts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But there is no doubt that Sanskrit is also a very old language and it might have influenced certain languages in the ME and vice versa. That I do not know with certainty.



There are already a lot of Indian Muslim pilgrims in KSA. You guys should keep a look at your population and prevent it from becoming too big and thus unsustainable but it's not like there are few of us Arabs either, lol. We are quickly approaching 500 million and I doubt that the increasing populations are necessarily a good thing.

Lastly do you guys have a similar mixed rice dish such as Kabsa for instance?

It' damn tasty.
Another nice discussion.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

India and the Arab League: Walking the Trade Talk​

By Kanchi Gupta
December 21, 2014

The Modi government is stepping up engagement with the Arab world.

India hosted the 4th India-Arab Partnership Conference late last month as part of the Modi administration’s efforts to elevate the level of engagement between the two sides. The conference, organized by the MEA in association with the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FICCI) and the League of Arab States (LAS), was inaugurated by Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman, Minister of State for Commerce and Industry.

Sitharaman emphasized the importance of Arab public and private sector investments in India and stated that “the Indian growth story would be incomplete without the participation of friends like the Arab League.” The movement of wealth and economic power from West to East is essential to tap “unexplored potentialities” of these markets and there are numerous opportunities in the areas of pharmaceutical and healthcare, manufacturing and infrastructure, wind and solar energy, as well as shale gas recovery.

The event echoed the Modi government’s agenda of economic reforms and deeper economic engagement globally and regionally, by institutionalizing a platform for raising the volume of trade and investment between India and the LAS. Twenty members of the LAS, including ministers from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Palestine and Oman, participated in the conference. MoUs were signed with the Bahrain Chamber of Commerce and the Federation of Arab Businessmen and Saudi Arabia and Jordan participated as partner countries.

The conference came soon after the India-Arab Cooperation Forum held on November 7, 2014 which gave a boost to the Memorandum of Cooperation (MoC) inked in December 2013. The MoC was a renewal of the Arab-India Cooperation Forum agreement signed in December 2008. Even though the agreements were signed under the aegis of the Congress-led UPA government, little progress was made in implementing their tenets.

The agreements were aimed at structuring Indo-Arab engagement on a range of bilateral, regional and global issues. They outlined action plans for annual ministerial level exchanges, joint ventures in energy cooperation, and media cooperation, among other areas. High-level political engagement was limited during the UPA tenure, and even though trade grew at 15 percent annually, India failed to exploit the full potential of gulf reserves. The Modi government, on the other hand, has displayed diplomatic activism and undertaken a number of policy initiatives to elevate Indo-Gulf economic ties.

The Modi government hosted the first session of the India-League of Arab States Media Symposium in August, just a few months after being elected to power. The symposium brought together media personalities from India and the Arab world and emphasized their role in promoting constructive dialogue between the two sides.

Soon after, Indian External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj travelled to Bahrain and the UAE to promote Indo-Gulf economic ties. The government reiterated a transparent and conducive business environment, including reduced FDI caps, to promote Gulf investment in Indian infrastructure development.

The government has also proposed tax incentives for the Investment Infrastructure trust and the Real Estate Infrastructure trust to promote foreign investments. Gulf investment becomes more critical as Indian infrastructure projects require an estimated $1 trillion over the next five years. The conclusion of the 7th Indo-Oman joint commission meeting and the India-Egypt Joint trade committee, in the last few months, indicates the government’s desire to give impetus to trade relations.

Even though total trade between India and the LAS amounts to $185.6 billion, the trade profile lacks diversification and a huge export market remains untapped.

From 2000 to 2014, the FDI flows from the Gulf to India have stood at a modest USD 3.2 billion with UAE accounting for 1.23 percent, Oman for 0.16 percent and Saudi Arabia for 0.02 percent of total FDI inflows into India. Thus, the GCC collectively accounts for only 1.5 percent of total FDI inflows, while accounting for 19 percent of exports and 28 percent of imports.

A burgeoning trade deficit, owing to energy-dominated trade patterns, is not sustainable for India in the long run. Negotiations over the Indo-GCC Free Trade Agreement, launched in 2005, have also not witnessed any real progress.

As the Arab-Persian rivalry increasingly defines the regional environment, particularly in Syria, Bahrain, Lebanon and Yemen, India is confronted with new challenges in calibrating its West Asia policy. However, economic imperatives have informed India’s relations with the Arab League.

India voted in favor of the Arab League’s peace plan for Syria at the United Nations in February 2012, despite close relations with the Assad regime. While New Delhi insisted that the draft resolution did not call for regime change in Syria, the vote followed two previous abstentions that condemned Assad and called for him to step down. Given that the Arab League’s stance on Syria was to the benefit of Sunni regimes, India’s vote underscores the rising importance of its relations with the Gulf petro-monarchies.

In the first high-level Indian visit to the region after the Arab Spring, former External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna travelled to Cairo in March 2012, to engage with the LAS leadership, representatives from Qatar, Libya and Iraq, and the transitional Egyptian leadership. With Iran, Syria and Afghanistan as central points of discussion, engagement with the LAS allowed New Delhi to assess the Arab-Persian dynamic as critical to its own interests in the region.

The League has sought a larger role for India in the peace and stability of the region. India’s formal ties with the LAS date back to 2002 wherein both sides inked a MoU, institutionalizing regular Arab-India political consultations. India was the first non-Arab nation to be conferred with Observer Status at the League and is invited to attend LAS summits.

At the third round of the India-Arab League dialogue in May 2007, visiting envoy Hashem Youssef stated that India can use “its weight in the international community” and “with other countries to advance Middle East peace.” Youssef also described India as an “emerging power” and expressed support for India’s bid for a permanent seat at the UNSC. The League has also refrained from adopting a position on the Kashmir dispute, alleviating concerns that it would tow the OIC line.

The LAS can serve as a platform for facilitating deeper political and economic ties between India and the region, even though concerns have been raised about its effectiveness. It offers India an institutional framework for regulating and expanding its influence in the region. Economic and strategic complementarities necessitate that India capitalize on this political space.

Kanchi Gupta is a Junior Fellow at the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi.

India and the Arab League: Walking the Trade Talk | The Diplomat

I think that the trade between the Arab League (Arab world) and India will hit 200 billion dollars this year. Of course the vast majority of that Arab-Indian trade is done between the GCC and India specifically.

Just imagine the potential with the remaining Arab world (400 million more people) and if the trade became diversified.

An enormous potential. I believe that hitting the 1 trillion dollars mark in terms of trade volume is possible in my lifetime.

 

[Ragnar]

There is no comparison at present. The amount of Indian business interests in GCC- particularly in UAE and Saudi is massive. Millions of Indian workers are employed in GCC. Even security wise, not sure that India's interests are tied with Iran. India mostly wants stability in Middle-East, peace to be maintained and trade to flourish. Still there is no harm in economic ties with Iran.

Sunil Vaswani tops Indian Rich List with $7.2bn - ArabianBusiness.com

 

[Sam.]

India and the Arab League: Walking the Trade Talk​

By Kanchi Gupta
December 21, 2014

The Modi government is stepping up engagement with the Arab world.

India hosted the 4th India-Arab Partnership Conference late last month as part of the Modi administration’s efforts to elevate the level of engagement between the two sides. The conference, organized by the MEA in association with the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FICCI) and the League of Arab States (LAS), was inaugurated by Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman, Minister of State for Commerce and Industry.

Sitharaman emphasized the importance of Arab public and private sector investments in India and stated that “the Indian growth story would be incomplete without the participation of friends like the Arab League.” The movement of wealth and economic power from West to East is essential to tap “unexplored potentialities” of these markets and there are numerous opportunities in the areas of pharmaceutical and healthcare, manufacturing and infrastructure, wind and solar energy, as well as shale gas recovery.

The event echoed the Modi government’s agenda of economic reforms and deeper economic engagement globally and regionally, by institutionalizing a platform for raising the volume of trade and investment between India and the LAS. Twenty members of the LAS, including ministers from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Palestine and Oman, participated in the conference. MoUs were signed with the Bahrain Chamber of Commerce and the Federation of Arab Businessmen and Saudi Arabia and Jordan participated as partner countries.

The conference came soon after the India-Arab Cooperation Forum held on November 7, 2014 which gave a boost to the Memorandum of Cooperation (MoC) inked in December 2013. The MoC was a renewal of the Arab-India Cooperation Forum agreement signed in December 2008. Even though the agreements were signed under the aegis of the Congress-led UPA government, little progress was made in implementing their tenets.

The agreements were aimed at structuring Indo-Arab engagement on a range of bilateral, regional and global issues. They outlined action plans for annual ministerial level exchanges, joint ventures in energy cooperation, and media cooperation, among other areas. High-level political engagement was limited during the UPA tenure, and even though trade grew at 15 percent annually, India failed to exploit the full potential of gulf reserves. The Modi government, on the other hand, has displayed diplomatic activism and undertaken a number of policy initiatives to elevate Indo-Gulf economic ties.

The Modi government hosted the first session of the India-League of Arab States Media Symposium in August, just a few months after being elected to power. The symposium brought together media personalities from India and the Arab world and emphasized their role in promoting constructive dialogue between the two sides.

Soon after, Indian External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj travelled to Bahrain and the UAE to promote Indo-Gulf economic ties. The government reiterated a transparent and conducive business environment, including reduced FDI caps, to promote Gulf investment in Indian infrastructure development.

The government has also proposed tax incentives for the Investment Infrastructure trust and the Real Estate Infrastructure trust to promote foreign investments. Gulf investment becomes more critical as Indian infrastructure projects require an estimated $1 trillion over the next five years. The conclusion of the 7th Indo-Oman joint commission meeting and the India-Egypt Joint trade committee, in the last few months, indicates the government’s desire to give impetus to trade relations.

Even though total trade between India and the LAS amounts to $185.6 billion, the trade profile lacks diversification and a huge export market remains untapped.

From 2000 to 2014, the FDI flows from the Gulf to India have stood at a modest USD 3.2 billion with UAE accounting for 1.23 percent, Oman for 0.16 percent and Saudi Arabia for 0.02 percent of total FDI inflows into India. Thus, the GCC collectively accounts for only 1.5 percent of total FDI inflows, while accounting for 19 percent of exports and 28 percent of imports.

A burgeoning trade deficit, owing to energy-dominated trade patterns, is not sustainable for India in the long run. Negotiations over the Indo-GCC Free Trade Agreement, launched in 2005, have also not witnessed any real progress.

As the Arab-Persian rivalry increasingly defines the regional environment, particularly in Syria, Bahrain, Lebanon and Yemen, India is confronted with new challenges in calibrating its West Asia policy. However, economic imperatives have informed India’s relations with the Arab League.

India voted in favor of the Arab League’s peace plan for Syria at the United Nations in February 2012, despite close relations with the Assad regime. While New Delhi insisted that the draft resolution did not call for regime change in Syria, the vote followed two previous abstentions that condemned Assad and called for him to step down. Given that the Arab League’s stance on Syria was to the benefit of Sunni regimes, India’s vote underscores the rising importance of its relations with the Gulf petro-monarchies.

In the first high-level Indian visit to the region after the Arab Spring, former External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna travelled to Cairo in March 2012, to engage with the LAS leadership, representatives from Qatar, Libya and Iraq, and the transitional Egyptian leadership. With Iran, Syria and Afghanistan as central points of discussion, engagement with the LAS allowed New Delhi to assess the Arab-Persian dynamic as critical to its own interests in the region.

The League has sought a larger role for India in the peace and stability of the region. India’s formal ties with the LAS date back to 2002 wherein both sides inked a MoU, institutionalizing regular Arab-India political consultations. India was the first non-Arab nation to be conferred with Observer Status at the League and is invited to attend LAS summits.

At the third round of the India-Arab League dialogue in May 2007, visiting envoy Hashem Youssef stated that India can use “its weight in the international community” and “with other countries to advance Middle East peace.” Youssef also described India as an “emerging power” and expressed support for India’s bid for a permanent seat at the UNSC. The League has also refrained from adopting a position on the Kashmir dispute, alleviating concerns that it would tow the OIC line.

The LAS can serve as a platform for facilitating deeper political and economic ties between India and the region, even though concerns have been raised about its effectiveness. It offers India an institutional framework for regulating and expanding its influence in the region. Economic and strategic complementarities necessitate that India capitalize on this political space.

Kanchi Gupta is a Junior Fellow at the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi.

India and the Arab League: Walking the Trade Talk | The Diplomat

I think that the trade between the Arab League (Arab world) and India will hit 200 billion dollars this year. Of course the vast majority of that Arab-Indian trade is done between the GCC and India specifically.

Just imagine the potential with the remaining Arab world (400 million more people) and if the trade became diversified.

An enormous potential. I believe that hitting the 1 trillion dollars mark in terms of trade volume is possible in my lifetime.

Indian Navy commissions three UAE-supplied Immediate Support Vessels





Published: March 2015

Visakhapatnam. The Indian Navy commissioned three Immediate Support Vessels (ISVs) supplied by UAE’s Abu Dhabi Ship Builders (ADSB) at an impressive ceremony here March 24.


Vice Admiral Satish Soni, Eastern Naval Command’s Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief, who commissioned them, praised their quality and sturdiness, pointing out that the three ISVs had sailed 1,200 nautical miles from Mumbai to Visakhapatnam over a duration of 12 days before reaching here. “That proved their sturdiness as the boats had crossed successfully the Gulf of Mannar facing strong winds and high seas.”

Built on reinforced fiberglass hulls, the ISVs are armed with Heavy Machine Guns (HMGs) and sophisticated radars and navigation equipment for littoral warfare and defence operations, particularly against terror attempts. The ISVs are Indian Navy’s light patrol boats, configured to carry commandos for any eventuality.

The 25-meter ships are fitted with two Caterpillar engines of 1600 MHP each to provide water jet propulsion, providing them a high speed of 40 knots and an endurance of 500 nautical miles. These ships are capable of carrying out day and night surveillance and can be used for rapid insertions/extraction of MARCOS (Indian Navy commandos) for military intervention.

The vessels were initially delivered in Mumbai on India’s West Coast, and then brought here.

ADSB had won a tender for nine ISVs from the Indian Navy some time back, and the first batch of six was delivered last year. With the delivery of the remaining three, ADSB has successfully completed the contract, Navy Spokesman Captain Sharma told India Strategic.

Five vessels were built by ADSB itself at its Mussafah facility on the outskirts of Abu Dhabi, and four by Rodman Spain under contract from ADSB. Weapons and electronic systems were integrated by ADSB.

ADSB has been building similar vessels for UAE and other Gulf countries for several years.

The three ships were given pennant numbers T 38, T 39 and T 40, and their respective commanders, Lieutenants Jai Kishore, Shobhit Saxena and Vaibhav Bhardwaj read out their commissioning warrants after they were introduced by Commodore KA Bopanna, Naval Officer-in-Charge (NOIC), Andhra Pradesh area.

Notably, under the ISV Project, India’s Oil and Natural Gas Corporation (ONGC) funded acquisition of 23 ISVs for the Navy, 14 of which were indigenously built by Mumbai-based SHM Shipcare.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

New UAE-India fund aims to attract $75bn infrastructure investments
​

By Staff writer
Monday, 17 August 2015 6:58 PM

The UAE and India plan to establish a fund to attract up to $75 billion in investments in infrastructure projects in India following the visit of Prime Minister Narendra Modi to the UAE.

Recognising that India is emerging as the new frontier of investment opportunities, investment institutions in the UAE will be encourage to raise their investments in India, through the establishment of UAE-India Infrastructure Investment Fund.

According to news agency WAM, the fund will support investment in India's plans for rapid expansion of next generation infrastructure, especially in railways, ports, roads, airports and industrial corridors and parks.

The fund is one of a number of initiatives agreed by the UAE and India following the two-day visit of Modi, the first in 34 years by an Indian Prime Minister to the Emirates.

The countries also set out plans to increase trade by 60 percent in the next five years.

In a statement, the two countries said they are keen to develop their relationship as the UAE's Indian community grows to over 2.5 million.

It said an extensive framework of agreements, including economic, defence, security, law enforcement, and culture have been agreed.

"The two countries have the potential to build a transformative economic partnership, not only for sustained prosperity of their two countries, but to also advance progress in the region and help realise the vision of an Asian century," the statement read.


However it added that the "common vision of progress and prosperity" faces challenges from many shared threats to peace, stability and security in the region.

"A shared endeavour to address these challenges, based on common ideals and convergent interests, is vital for the future of the two countries and their region," it added.

The two nations said they reject extremism and any link between religion and terrorism and will coordinate efforts to counter radicalization and misuse of religion by groups and countries for inciting hatred, perpetrating and justifying terrorism or pursuing political aims.

The countries said they will work together to control, regulate and share information on flow of funds that could have a bearing on radicalization activities and take action against concerned individuals and organizations.

Cooperation in law enforcement, anti-money laundering, drug trafficking will also be strengthened, the statement said.

The UAE and India will also facilitate participation of Indian companies in infrastructure development in UAE and will promote a strategic partnership in the energy sector.

New UAE-India fund aims to attract $75bn infrastructure investments - ArabianBusiness.com

Riyadh-Delhi ties open up top-class opportunities​

• 

  
  Commerce and Industry Minister Tawfiq Al-Rabiah with Indian Finance Minister Arun Jaitley at a recent meeting in New Delhi.​

RASHID HASSAN

Published — Saturday 15 August 2015

Last update 15 August 2015 1:29 am

The historic Saudi-India relationship is now breaking frontiers by opening up new vistas of opportunities for the citizens from the two friendly countries, which is evident from the fact that the Kingdom now hosts 2.75 million plus strong Indian community — the largest expatriate community in Saudi Arabia and also preferred by the Saudi employers due to their
expertise, sense of discipline, and law abiding and peace loving nature.
The bilateral ties, which got reinforced and strengthened over a period of time, now enjoy multifaceted relationship reflecting the centuries old economic and socio-cultural ties opened by traders and sailors from India, who used to come to Saudi Arabia for bilateral exchanges.
Ipso facto, India and Saudi Arabia see each other as an important partner with India acknowledging the fact that the Kingdom hosts not only the largest number of Indian passport holders in the world but also that these skilled manpower pay rich dividend to the motherland by handsomely contributing in the form of remittances, which is the highest to India from anywhere in the world, thus making an important contribution toward the substantial Indian foreign exchange reserve.
Therefore, the bilateral relationship is growing like never before in the history as the progressive approaches by the rich diaspora are more satisfying as well as expanding for both the parties when compared it in terms of previous traditional bilateral records.
Moreover, as Saudi Arabia believes that India is a rapidly developing nation, especially in education-based industries, Saudi Basic Industries Corporation (SABIC) recently opened a $100 million technology center in Bengaluru, which is a world-renowned center for technology driven industry in India and clearly emerged as the technology hub for research in chemistry, material science and process engineering.
Hence, it is now the fast changing dynamics of their relationship, which has gone much beyond traditional energy security and exchange in trade and commerce to the rich diaspora factor, which matters a lot in the making of new opportunities for citizens from the two nations.
Committed to further increasing bilateral cooperation in manpower, trade and commerce, IT, communication and higher education, the 11th India-Saudi Arabia Joint Commission meeting in New Delhi in May this year focused on enhancing bilateral cooperation, knowledge exchange and economic ties between the two countries.
“A wide range of issues, including cooperation in trade and commerce, higher education, health, communication, culture and IT were discussed,” said the Indian finance ministry after the meeting co-chaired by Commerce and Industry Minister Tawfiq Al-Rabiah and Indian Finance Minister Arun Jaitley.
The cultural aspect of the growing bilateral ties is equally important and India sent a high-level delegation with 18 members on a special flight under the leadership of Vice President Hamid Ansari to take part in King Abdullah’s funeral, when the world leaders descended on Riyadh.
The Haj and Umrah pilgrimage is another important component of bilateral relationship.
During Haj 2014, as many as 135,914 Indians arrived in the two holy cities of Makkah and Madinah to perform Haj.

Riyadh-Delhi ties open up top-class opportunities | Arab News

@Tridibans @SrNair @ranjeet @Sam. @Mo12 @Capt.Popeye @Centrist @Arya Desa @proud_indian @Cherokee @Echo_419 @Kaniska @nForce @Roybot @levina @Chronos @Indischer etc.

 

[Ryuzaki]

Pakistan should introspect on how India has good relations with all Muslim countries(GCC,Indonesia,Afg etc) except Pakistan

 

[Tridibans]

New UAE-India fund aims to attract $75bn infrastructure investments
​

By Staff writer
Monday, 17 August 2015 6:58 PM

The UAE and India plan to establish a fund to attract up to $75 billion in investments in infrastructure projects in India following the visit of Prime Minister Narendra Modi to the UAE.

Recognising that India is emerging as the new frontier of investment opportunities, investment institutions in the UAE will be encourage to raise their investments in India, through the establishment of UAE-India Infrastructure Investment Fund.

According to news agency WAM, the fund will support investment in India's plans for rapid expansion of next generation infrastructure, especially in railways, ports, roads, airports and industrial corridors and parks.

The fund is one of a number of initiatives agreed by the UAE and India following the two-day visit of Modi, the first in 34 years by an Indian Prime Minister to the Emirates.

The countries also set out plans to increase trade by 60 percent in the next five years.

In a statement, the two countries said they are keen to develop their relationship as the UAE's Indian community grows to over 2.5 million.

It said an extensive framework of agreements, including economic, defence, security, law enforcement, and culture have been agreed.

"The two countries have the potential to build a transformative economic partnership, not only for sustained prosperity of their two countries, but to also advance progress in the region and help realise the vision of an Asian century," the statement read.


However it added that the "common vision of progress and prosperity" faces challenges from many shared threats to peace, stability and security in the region.

"A shared endeavour to address these challenges, based on common ideals and convergent interests, is vital for the future of the two countries and their region," it added.

The two nations said they reject extremism and any link between religion and terrorism and will coordinate efforts to counter radicalization and misuse of religion by groups and countries for inciting hatred, perpetrating and justifying terrorism or pursuing political aims.

The countries said they will work together to control, regulate and share information on flow of funds that could have a bearing on radicalization activities and take action against concerned individuals and organizations.

Cooperation in law enforcement, anti-money laundering, drug trafficking will also be strengthened, the statement said.

The UAE and India will also facilitate participation of Indian companies in infrastructure development in UAE and will promote a strategic partnership in the energy sector.

New UAE-India fund aims to attract $75bn infrastructure investments - ArabianBusiness.com

Riyadh-Delhi ties open up top-class opportunities​

• 

  
  Commerce and Industry Minister Tawfiq Al-Rabiah with Indian Finance Minister Arun Jaitley at a recent meeting in New Delhi.​

RASHID HASSAN

Published — Saturday 15 August 2015

Last update 15 August 2015 1:29 am

The historic Saudi-India relationship is now breaking frontiers by opening up new vistas of opportunities for the citizens from the two friendly countries, which is evident from the fact that the Kingdom now hosts 2.75 million plus strong Indian community — the largest expatriate community in Saudi Arabia and also preferred by the Saudi employers due to their
expertise, sense of discipline, and law abiding and peace loving nature.
The bilateral ties, which got reinforced and strengthened over a period of time, now enjoy multifaceted relationship reflecting the centuries old economic and socio-cultural ties opened by traders and sailors from India, who used to come to Saudi Arabia for bilateral exchanges.
Ipso facto, India and Saudi Arabia see each other as an important partner with India acknowledging the fact that the Kingdom hosts not only the largest number of Indian passport holders in the world but also that these skilled manpower pay rich dividend to the motherland by handsomely contributing in the form of remittances, which is the highest to India from anywhere in the world, thus making an important contribution toward the substantial Indian foreign exchange reserve.
Therefore, the bilateral relationship is growing like never before in the history as the progressive approaches by the rich diaspora are more satisfying as well as expanding for both the parties when compared it in terms of previous traditional bilateral records.
Moreover, as Saudi Arabia believes that India is a rapidly developing nation, especially in education-based industries, Saudi Basic Industries Corporation (SABIC) recently opened a $100 million technology center in Bengaluru, which is a world-renowned center for technology driven industry in India and clearly emerged as the technology hub for research in chemistry, material science and process engineering.
Hence, it is now the fast changing dynamics of their relationship, which has gone much beyond traditional energy security and exchange in trade and commerce to the rich diaspora factor, which matters a lot in the making of new opportunities for citizens from the two nations.
Committed to further increasing bilateral cooperation in manpower, trade and commerce, IT, communication and higher education, the 11th India-Saudi Arabia Joint Commission meeting in New Delhi in May this year focused on enhancing bilateral cooperation, knowledge exchange and economic ties between the two countries.
“A wide range of issues, including cooperation in trade and commerce, higher education, health, communication, culture and IT were discussed,” said the Indian finance ministry after the meeting co-chaired by Commerce and Industry Minister Tawfiq Al-Rabiah and Indian Finance Minister Arun Jaitley.
The cultural aspect of the growing bilateral ties is equally important and India sent a high-level delegation with 18 members on a special flight under the leadership of Vice President Hamid Ansari to take part in King Abdullah’s funeral, when the world leaders descended on Riyadh.
The Haj and Umrah pilgrimage is another important component of bilateral relationship.
During Haj 2014, as many as 135,914 Indians arrived in the two holy cities of Makkah and Madinah to perform Haj.

Riyadh-Delhi ties open up top-class opportunities | Arab News

@qamar1990

 

[Mohd. Kamran]

New UAE-India fund aims to attract $75bn infrastructure investments
​

By Staff writer
Monday, 17 August 2015 6:58 PM

The UAE and India plan to establish a fund to attract up to $75 billion in investments in infrastructure projects in India following the visit of Prime Minister Narendra Modi to the UAE.

Recognising that India is emerging as the new frontier of investment opportunities, investment institutions in the UAE will be encourage to raise their investments in India, through the establishment of UAE-India Infrastructure Investment Fund.

According to news agency WAM, the fund will support investment in India's plans for rapid expansion of next generation infrastructure, especially in railways, ports, roads, airports and industrial corridors and parks.

The fund is one of a number of initiatives agreed by the UAE and India following the two-day visit of Modi, the first in 34 years by an Indian Prime Minister to the Emirates.

The countries also set out plans to increase trade by 60 percent in the next five years.

In a statement, the two countries said they are keen to develop their relationship as the UAE's Indian community grows to over 2.5 million.

It said an extensive framework of agreements, including economic, defence, security, law enforcement, and culture have been agreed.

"The two countries have the potential to build a transformative economic partnership, not only for sustained prosperity of their two countries, but to also advance progress in the region and help realise the vision of an Asian century," the statement read.


However it added that the "common vision of progress and prosperity" faces challenges from many shared threats to peace, stability and security in the region.

"A shared endeavour to address these challenges, based on common ideals and convergent interests, is vital for the future of the two countries and their region," it added.

The two nations said they reject extremism and any link between religion and terrorism and will coordinate efforts to counter radicalization and misuse of religion by groups and countries for inciting hatred, perpetrating and justifying terrorism or pursuing political aims.

The countries said they will work together to control, regulate and share information on flow of funds that could have a bearing on radicalization activities and take action against concerned individuals and organizations.

Cooperation in law enforcement, anti-money laundering, drug trafficking will also be strengthened, the statement said.

The UAE and India will also facilitate participation of Indian companies in infrastructure development in UAE and will promote a strategic partnership in the energy sector.

New UAE-India fund aims to attract $75bn infrastructure investments - ArabianBusiness.com

Riyadh-Delhi ties open up top-class opportunities​

• 

  
  Commerce and Industry Minister Tawfiq Al-Rabiah with Indian Finance Minister Arun Jaitley at a recent meeting in New Delhi.​

RASHID HASSAN

Published — Saturday 15 August 2015

Last update 15 August 2015 1:29 am

The historic Saudi-India relationship is now breaking frontiers by opening up new vistas of opportunities for the citizens from the two friendly countries, which is evident from the fact that the Kingdom now hosts 2.75 million plus strong Indian community — the largest expatriate community in Saudi Arabia and also preferred by the Saudi employers due to their
expertise, sense of discipline, and law abiding and peace loving nature.
The bilateral ties, which got reinforced and strengthened over a period of time, now enjoy multifaceted relationship reflecting the centuries old economic and socio-cultural ties opened by traders and sailors from India, who used to come to Saudi Arabia for bilateral exchanges.
Ipso facto, India and Saudi Arabia see each other as an important partner with India acknowledging the fact that the Kingdom hosts not only the largest number of Indian passport holders in the world but also that these skilled manpower pay rich dividend to the motherland by handsomely contributing in the form of remittances, which is the highest to India from anywhere in the world, thus making an important contribution toward the substantial Indian foreign exchange reserve.
Therefore, the bilateral relationship is growing like never before in the history as the progressive approaches by the rich diaspora are more satisfying as well as expanding for both the parties when compared it in terms of previous traditional bilateral records.
Moreover, as Saudi Arabia believes that India is a rapidly developing nation, especially in education-based industries, Saudi Basic Industries Corporation (SABIC) recently opened a $100 million technology center in Bengaluru, which is a world-renowned center for technology driven industry in India and clearly emerged as the technology hub for research in chemistry, material science and process engineering.
Hence, it is now the fast changing dynamics of their relationship, which has gone much beyond traditional energy security and exchange in trade and commerce to the rich diaspora factor, which matters a lot in the making of new opportunities for citizens from the two nations.
Committed to further increasing bilateral cooperation in manpower, trade and commerce, IT, communication and higher education, the 11th India-Saudi Arabia Joint Commission meeting in New Delhi in May this year focused on enhancing bilateral cooperation, knowledge exchange and economic ties between the two countries.
“A wide range of issues, including cooperation in trade and commerce, higher education, health, communication, culture and IT were discussed,” said the Indian finance ministry after the meeting co-chaired by Commerce and Industry Minister Tawfiq Al-Rabiah and Indian Finance Minister Arun Jaitley.
The cultural aspect of the growing bilateral ties is equally important and India sent a high-level delegation with 18 members on a special flight under the leadership of Vice President Hamid Ansari to take part in King Abdullah’s funeral, when the world leaders descended on Riyadh.
The Haj and Umrah pilgrimage is another important component of bilateral relationship.
During Haj 2014, as many as 135,914 Indians arrived in the two holy cities of Makkah and Madinah to perform Haj.

Riyadh-Delhi ties open up top-class opportunities | Arab News

@Tridibans @SrNair @ranjeet @Sam. @Mo12 @Capt.Popeye @Centrist @Arya Desa @proud_indian @Cherokee @Echo_419 @Kaniska @nForce @Roybot @levina @Chronos @Indischer etc.

Brother first mosque outside Arabia was in India so you can see the cultural ties between Arabia and India.

List of the oldest mosques in the world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Brother first mosque outside Arabia was in India so you can see the cultural ties between Arabia and India.

List of the oldest mosques in the world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is very correct brother.

The Palaiya Jumma Palli in Kilakarai in Tamil Nadu is the fourth oldest mosque in the world (!) and was built in 628.

Two other very old mosques built in India in the 7th century are the Cheraman Juma Masjid (629) in Kodungallur (Kerala) and another one is the Malik Dinar Mosque in Kasargode (648) in Kerala as well.

I would personally love to visit those 3 historic mosques.

Many of the thousands upon thousands mosques in India were built by Arabs or built upon graves of Arab sufi saints etc.

If you read this thread you will learn that the recorded relations between the people of the Arabian Peninsula and India predate Islam with 3500 years!

In fact it goes way more back in history.

Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula and Indians have had close business ties for millenniums. The ancient relationship was based on trade which later evolved into cultural, religious etc. exchanges. Overall the relationship was very cordial. Another interesting thing (if you like anthropology) is that most of the descendants of modern-day Indians and South Asians lived on the Arabian Peninsula for millenniums upon millenniums before they ventured towards South Asia and all the remaining corners of the world. After all the Arabian Peninsula is the longest inhabited place on the planet outside of Eastern and Southern Africa.

Early human migration written in stone tools : Nature News

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/04/140421164242.htm

Similarily you can say the exact same thing about the people of current day Pakistan (especially Sindh and Southern Pakistan) and the people of the Arabian Peninsula.

Ironically 2 of the oldest mosques in the world were built as far as in China. It just shows the closeness between historical regions long before the advent of Islam.

 

[Sam.]

This is very correct brother.

The Palaiya Jumma Palli in Kilakarai in Tamil Nadu is the fourth oldest mosque in the world (!) and was built in 628.

Two other very old mosques built in India in the 7th century are the Cheraman Juma Masjid (629) in Kodungallur (Kerala) and another one is the Malik Dinar Mosque in Kasargode (648) in Kerala as well.

I would personally love to visit those 3 historic mosques.

Many of the thousands upon thousands mosques in India were built by Arabs or built upon graves of Arab sufi saints etc.

If you read this thread you will learn that the recorded relations between the people of the Arabian Peninsula and India predate Islam with 3500 years!

In fact it goes way more back in history.

Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula and Indians have had close business ties for millenniums. The ancient relationship was based on trade which later evolved into cultural, religious etc. exchanges. Overall the relationship was very cordial. Another interesting thing (if you like anthropology) is that most of the descendants of modern-day Indians and South Asians lived on the Arabian Peninsula for millenniums upon millenniums before they ventured towards South Asia and all the remaining corners of the world. After all the Arabian Peninsula is the longest inhabited place on the planet outside of Eastern and Southern Africa.

Early human migration written in stone tools : Nature News

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/04/140421164242.htm

Similarily you can say the exact same thing about the people of current day Pakistan (especially Sindh and Southern Pakistan) and the people of the Arabian Peninsula.

Ironically 2 of the oldest mosques in the world were built as far as in China. It just shows the closeness between historical regions long before the advent of Islam.

After aborted NSA talks, PM Modi's Saudi Arabia trip is the 'ultimate masterstroke'

Narendra Modi’s aides are quietly working on his visit to Saudi Arabia, the most influential Islamic country. Though the dates have not been finalised as yet but considering the fact that the far reaching implications this trip can have, both politically and economically, the official and unofficial channels are attaching a great deal of significance to it.

Modi’s visit to Saudi Arabia could perhaps be the biggest headline grabbing story of the year, as and when it happens in coming months. A person closely involved with informal level of contacts between the Arab world and PMO said “Modi’s trip to Saudi Arabia will have tremendous impact. This is going to be an ultimate masterstroke. Desh me jabardast message hoga. Just wait and see.” India and Saudi Arabia hold cordial bilateral relations and Manmohan Singh had visited there in 2010 (after a gap of 28 years by any Indian PM) “but with Modi, things are beyond doubt going to be special”, he said.

After Modi’s hugely successful trip to UAE, his aides and BJP leaders expectations from his proposed tour to Saudi Arabia have gone up and they have their reasons for that.

Saudi Arabian king Salman Bin Abdulaziz and Modi have already struck a personal rapport. Two of them met in November 2014 on the sidelines of G20 meeting in Brisbane, Abdulaziz was then Saudi's crown prince and is the King now. He called Modi as “friend of friendly nations”. That bonding could reflect in many ways when Modi visits there.
Modi had received the warmest possible reception in Dubai and Abu Dhabi by Emirates rulers as also an assurance of investment of Rs four and half crores by Abu Dhabi’s crown prince.

BJP leaders believe that the Arab world rulers have huge sense of trade and investment, something where Modi too excels as a leader is helping them to find a natural bonding.

A source said “During PM Modi’s visit to Saudi Arabia a matching reception (like he had in UAE) from the king and investment promise of same or possibly of greater magnitude from the King.”


File photo of Narendra Modi. AP

There appears to be an irresistible urge between him and Arab world leaders to discover each other. A few months back Qatar's Emir Sheikh Tamim Bin Hamad Al-Thani had visited New Delhi. Two days External Affairs minister Sushma Swaraj traveled to Egypt and was conscious to point out that strength of relations with Palestine and Arab nations would not be affected by India's relations with Israel. There are reports that Modi has accepted Iranian President Hassan Rouhani's invitation to visit Tehran when the two leaders met on the sidelines of the BRICS/SCO summit in Russia. The Prime Minister will also be going to Turkey to attend G-20 summit in November.

Zafar Sareshwala, Chancellor of Maulana Azad National Urdu University and Modi's trusted point person for his informal outreach to the Muslim world says, “They have the capital and we have avenues of investment. In Modi, they see a strong leader who has a positive outlook for business and industry. He also has the keenness to take India and its people to a higher level of growth and development. during his travels to the gulf countries I have found that the ruling class, business community and intelligentia are hugely interested to know more of Modi. It’s a known fact that they are a surplus economy. In Modi’s leadership they find that much needed trust and belief which could make them inclined to invest.”

The trip to Saudi Arabia gains political or social significance because the Indian Muslim community look up to the Arab world for religious and spiritual guidance as also of monetary support for social, cultural and educational purposes. Islamic institutions like madrassas and a whole lot of NGOs thrive on donations offered by Arab countries. Since Saudi Arabia is home to Mecca and Medina, it has a very special place in minds of believers of Islam. More so, a huge number of Indians around 28 lakh, mostly Muslims are in Saudi Arabia. That’s the largest expatriate population of that country.

Saudi is also India’s largest supplier of crude, accounting for almost one fifth of its needs, as also the fourth largest trading partner. In October last year, Modi had sent Dharmendra Pradhan, union minister for petroleum and natural gas for improving business relations in oil sector.

There is possibility that he might travel beyond Saudi capital Riyadh to Jeddah, which is termed as gateway to Mecca, and have some important engagements there. But since there are no dates as yet there can’t be itinerary but all this is being informally discussed.

Whether Modi’s special friendship with Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries leaders have any bearing in changing the perception of Muslim community domestically in the longer run is a million dollar question. Its hazardous to make any guesses at the moment but the emerging situations could throw up intense debates and interesting possibilities. His visit to Sheikh Zyed Grand Mosque in Dubai unleashed wide-ranging debates, both within and outside of Muslim community in India.
After aborted NSA talks, PM Modi's Saudi Arabia trip is the 'ultimate masterstroke' - Firstpost

 

[Saif al-Arab]

After aborted NSA talks, PM Modi's Saudi Arabia trip is the 'ultimate masterstroke'

Narendra Modi’s aides are quietly working on his visit to Saudi Arabia, the most influential Islamic country. Though the dates have not been finalised as yet but considering the fact that the far reaching implications this trip can have, both politically and economically, the official and unofficial channels are attaching a great deal of significance to it.

Modi’s visit to Saudi Arabia could perhaps be the biggest headline grabbing story of the year, as and when it happens in coming months. A person closely involved with informal level of contacts between the Arab world and PMO said “Modi’s trip to Saudi Arabia will have tremendous impact. This is going to be an ultimate masterstroke. Desh me jabardast message hoga. Just wait and see.” India and Saudi Arabia hold cordial bilateral relations and Manmohan Singh had visited there in 2010 (after a gap of 28 years by any Indian PM) “but with Modi, things are beyond doubt going to be special”, he said.

After Modi’s hugely successful trip to UAE, his aides and BJP leaders expectations from his proposed tour to Saudi Arabia have gone up and they have their reasons for that.

Saudi Arabian king Salman Bin Abdulaziz and Modi have already struck a personal rapport. Two of them met in November 2014 on the sidelines of G20 meeting in Brisbane, Abdulaziz was then Saudi's crown prince and is the King now. He called Modi as “friend of friendly nations”. That bonding could reflect in many ways when Modi visits there.
Modi had received the warmest possible reception in Dubai and Abu Dhabi by Emirates rulers as also an assurance of investment of Rs four and half crores by Abu Dhabi’s crown prince.

BJP leaders believe that the Arab world rulers have huge sense of trade and investment, something where Modi too excels as a leader is helping them to find a natural bonding.

A source said “During PM Modi’s visit to Saudi Arabia a matching reception (like he had in UAE) from the king and investment promise of same or possibly of greater magnitude from the King.”


File photo of Narendra Modi. AP

There appears to be an irresistible urge between him and Arab world leaders to discover each other. A few months back Qatar's Emir Sheikh Tamim Bin Hamad Al-Thani had visited New Delhi. Two days External Affairs minister Sushma Swaraj traveled to Egypt and was conscious to point out that strength of relations with Palestine and Arab nations would not be affected by India's relations with Israel. There are reports that Modi has accepted Iranian President Hassan Rouhani's invitation to visit Tehran when the two leaders met on the sidelines of the BRICS/SCO summit in Russia. The Prime Minister will also be going to Turkey to attend G-20 summit in November.

Zafar Sareshwala, Chancellor of Maulana Azad National Urdu University and Modi's trusted point person for his informal outreach to the Muslim world says, “They have the capital and we have avenues of investment. In Modi, they see a strong leader who has a positive outlook for business and industry. He also has the keenness to take India and its people to a higher level of growth and development. during his travels to the gulf countries I have found that the ruling class, business community and intelligentia are hugely interested to know more of Modi. It’s a known fact that they are a surplus economy. In Modi’s leadership they find that much needed trust and belief which could make them inclined to invest.”

The trip to Saudi Arabia gains political or social significance because the Indian Muslim community look up to the Arab world for religious and spiritual guidance as also of monetary support for social, cultural and educational purposes. Islamic institutions like madrassas and a whole lot of NGOs thrive on donations offered by Arab countries. Since Saudi Arabia is home to Mecca and Medina, it has a very special place in minds of believers of Islam. More so, a huge number of Indians around 28 lakh, mostly Muslims are in Saudi Arabia. That’s the largest expatriate population of that country.

Saudi is also India’s largest supplier of crude, accounting for almost one fifth of its needs, as also the fourth largest trading partner. In October last year, Modi had sent Dharmendra Pradhan, union minister for petroleum and natural gas for improving business relations in oil sector.

There is possibility that he might travel beyond Saudi capital Riyadh to Jeddah, which is termed as gateway to Mecca, and have some important engagements there. But since there are no dates as yet there can’t be itinerary but all this is being informally discussed.

Whether Modi’s special friendship with Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries leaders have any bearing in changing the perception of Muslim community domestically in the longer run is a million dollar question. Its hazardous to make any guesses at the moment but the emerging situations could throw up intense debates and interesting possibilities. His visit to Sheikh Zyed Grand Mosque in Dubai unleashed wide-ranging debates, both within and outside of Muslim community in India.
After aborted NSA talks, PM Modi's Saudi Arabia trip is the 'ultimate masterstroke' - Firstpost

If such a visit indeed takes place you can expect PDF to explode with traffic. Not the good or constructive kind mind you.

It will for sure be interesting to see what will happen in terms of bilateral relations.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

If such a visit indeed takes place you can expect PDF to explode with traffic. Not the good or constructive kind mind you.

It will for sure be interesting to see what will happen in terms of bilateral relations.

It will make up for dull days on PDF.
Not that there are too many of them.....