India & Pakistan Ceasefire Violations

[blain2]

Blain...one wonders who will have have the last laugh if you find out that there were indeed 3-4 Pakistanis KIA. Strange that Pak Army still had no information/confirmation about the incident at all. Speaks volume !!!

About the timing, you are entitled to have your own view while we can have ours.
what Indian strategists believe is a calibrated Pakistan Army effort to ratchet-up tensions on the LoC and thus justify pulling out troops from its unsuccessful counter-terrorism operations in the North West Frontier Province. Ideal situation to justify pulling out troops..while Pak PM is in US

Sam sahib,

I am not sure who will have the last laugh but read this:


No /2008-ISPR

Dated 29-7-08

Rawalpindi, 29 July: A spokesman of ISPR refuted the Indian Army’s claim that Pakistani Troops had crossed 200 M on the Indian side of the LOC in Kupwara Sector, Occupied Kashmir which resulted into exchange of fire.
The spokesman said that no Pakistani soldier had crossed the LOC. He said that Indian soldiers wanted to establish a forward post in the area on Pakistani side of LOC which was objected by our soldiers. On Pakistan’s’ objection, Indian troops opened indiscriminate and unprovoked fire. The Indian fire was immediately responded to. The firing continued – intermittently during the whole night and was still continuing till the issue of this Press Release.
The spokesman condemned the unprovoked firing by the Indian troops and strongly denied the report of any causality on the Pakistani side.
He said that we have material evidence to suggest that the Indian soldiers had crossed the LOC and wanted to establish a post on the Pakistani side of the LOC. After the fire fight, the Indian soldiers were forced to flee from the area leaving behind their weapons. The evidence will be shown to the Indians during the flag meeting, the spokesman concluded.

 

[blain2]

Exactly.

Also, has pakistan army every given out the exact numnber of casuelties ??
Even in kargil, there were contradictions between Gen Mushraf's statements and what was in his book and then what Nawaj said.

We were not the ones who had our soldiers laying down playing dead Pakistanis with Ketchup/Tomato sauce on their bellies so try not to impress us with the authenticity of Indian casualty reports and those too about the other side. There is an inherent tendency to bloat the figures when such claims are made.

Also the LoC heating up has less to do with whats going on in FATA and more to do with what you guys are up to in Baluchistan. Pakistan has no reason to open up two fronts unnecessarily. There is a realization in Islamabad that you guys are up to no good recently and also in no mood to talk peace. So things are starting to get hot elsewhere.

 

[Goodperson]

We were not the ones who had our soldiers laying down playing dead Pakistanis with Ketchup/Tomato sauce on their bellies so try not to impress us with the authenticity of Indian casualty reports and those too about the other side. There is an inherent tendency to bloat the figures when such claims are made.

Also the LoC heating up has less to do with whats going on in FATA and more to do with what you guys are up to in Baluchistan. Pakistan has no reason to open up two fronts unnecessarily. There is a realization in Islamabad that you guys are up to no good recently and also in no mood to talk peace. So things are starting to get hot elsewhere.

Ketchup incident was corruption by some army people to get medals please do not mix issues.

I guess he is also refering to Pakistan's refusal to accept bodies of Militants as Pakistan soldiers as the official Pakistan's version was PA was not involved but now we know all.

 

[Spring Onion]

Ketchup incident was corruption by some army people to get medals please do not mix issues..

Oh you mean those were not high ranking Army officials from Indian Army???

Some people ????

These were not some people. Those were real Indian Army officers commissioned in the army properly.

 

[Goodperson]

Oh you mean those were not high ranking Army officials from Indian Army???

Some people ????

These were not some people. Those were real Indian Army officers commissioned in the army properly.

I meant to say that was purely internal matter of IA nothing to do with "LoC Ceasefire Violations".

I do not know what are you thinking now if they were not some army people I said it was a corruption case in IA period

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Lets not turn this into another Kargil thread please.

The IA story has been shown to have more holes than Swiss cheese now though...

 

[blain2]

Ketchup incident was corruption by some army people to get medals please do not mix issues.

I guess he is also refering to Pakistan's refusal to accept bodies of Militants as Pakistan soldiers as the official Pakistan's version was PA was not involved but now we know all.

Pakistan received all of the bodies that were delivered by the Indians and vice versa. Pakistan's sole point about the return of the dead during the Kargil conflict was to do so at flag meetings in the absence of foreign media. This is the issue that most Indians never discuss and use it as our reluctance to take on the dead. There are videos on Youtube showing Pakistani officer and his troops receiving the dead Pakistani bodies from the Indian troops.

Secondly, I brought the ketchup story into the discussion for obvious reason which was to point out that what you guys say is not entirely credible so until and unless something more concrete comes up about who and how many died, there is not much credibility in the Indian reports. I'd rather believe the ISPR report stating no casualties have occurred on the Pakistani side.

 

[blain2]

I meant to say that was purely internal matter of IA nothing to do with "LoC Ceasefire Violations".

I do not know what are you thinking now if they were not some army people I said it was a corruption case in IA period

But they were shown to be Pakistani troops who had "died" in similar clashes as are being reported today about the firing incident.

 

[Goodperson]

AM- I could not stop replying on Kargil after seeing your Thanks ;(

Isn't it true that Pakistan was not acknowledging PA's involvement till recent few years.

Nawaz was not even aware (He has been consistent throughout on this and is ready for investigations) ?

OK I should start with some reports during those times Pakistan refused to take bodies but approached Red Cross to take them.


Statement of the Official Spokesman
July 15, 1999

The Pakistan authorities have adamantly refused to acknowledge the involvement of Pakistan Army regulars in the misadventure in Kargil. The callousness and inhumanity with which they are persisting in this fiction is demonstrated in the current matter concerning the bodies of two officers of the Pakistan Army who had died in action on the Indian side of the Line of Control in Kargil. The body of Capt. Imtiaz Malik of 165 Mortar Regiment was found at Point 4875 in the Mushkoh sub-sector. The body of Capt. Karnal Sher of 12 Northern Light Infantry was found on Tiger Hill in the Drass sub-sector. The identities of these two officers were established by correspondence found on their person. Both bodies are in possession of the Indian Army authorities.

The above information was conveyed to the Pakistan government on July 12. We informed the Pakistani authorities that we would like to hand over the bodies to them. We did not receive any response. Subsequently, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) approached Government of India on July 13, stating that Pakistan government had requested them to contact the Government of India for handing over the bodies of the two officers about which they had heard. The Pakistani request did not specify the names and identities of the two officers, despite the information being available to them. The reason is obvious. The Pakistan authorities realised that if they conceded the identities of these two officers, it would demolish the myth that Pakistan army was not involved in Kargil. We provided ICRC with this information, along with the photographs of the bodies and copies of correspondence found on their person which identify them as above.

The Pakistan Government conveyed through ICRC that the material we had furnished was "insufficient" to establish the identities of the officers, and that they would like the bodies to be handed over and taken to Islamabad for verification. It is clear that this was again an attempt to obscure and evade the fact that these were bodies of officers of the Pakistan Army involved in the Kargil operation. We offered to the Pakistan authorities through the ICRC that we would be ready to receive in India persons, including their family members, deputed by the Government of Pakistan to come to India and verify the identity of the officers and take over the bodies. We had pointed out that it is unprecedented and unheard of for bodies to be sent abroad in this fashion for the purpose of identification, even before their nationality and military identity are established. If Pakistan doubts them, it is for their representatives to come and see the bodies. We have not yet received a response from Pakistan through the ICRC.

It is clear that Pakistan is fully aware of the identities of these bodies but they do not wish to acknowledge this fact as it would immediately expose their army's involvement in Kargil. Hence, their reluctance to have the bodies identified in the usual manner. In this persistent and callous refusal to do so, they are doing great dis-service to the families of their soldiers and to the traditions of armed forces everywhere.

The Government of India had conveyed to the ICRC that because of the weather conditions, the condition of bodies is deteriorating and the ICRC should come back with the response from Pakistan by 1100 hrs. IST on July 15. Pakistan has not conveyed their response. In view of the humanitarian nature of the problem, the Indian Army authorities will wait as long as it is possible, to get a response from Pakistan authorities through the ICRC.

New Delhi
July 15, 1999

Kargil

This is my last post about kargil on this thread.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Goodperson,

Check the timing of the posts before criticizing the 'Thanks'. Blain was typing his response while I was posting, and my thanks was regarding the clarification on Pakistan's position on the retrieval of the bodies.

The above report is the Indian version of the events is it not? And it is the skepticism surrounding the veracity of Indian claims that led to Blain pointing out the "ketchup incident".

There is a trend of 'disinformation' by the IA that is becoming apparent (lets also not forget the lies about torture by the PA during Kargil that were debunked by some in the Indian media itself), and the 'holes' in the latest 'story' just validate that suspicion.

Now, moving away from Kargil...

 

[blain2]

Not sure where it says that Pakistan refused the bodies? They wanted the bodies back without letting India take advantage of the situation. This is a different situation than what many Indians have made out to be a callous Pakistani response saying no to the bodies.

We took all of the bodies back but did not want to internationalize the issue for operational reasons. I do not blame the Pakistani government for doing so. It was a difficult operation. Officers and troops were told not to disclose their identities if it could be helped. It happened in the past as well. At least I find the attempts by the Indian side to turn this into an embarrassment for Pakistan as a PR stunt and nothing else. There was nothing humanitarian about it, otherwise the bodies could have been returned simply by one Army to the other as has happened many a times along the LoC.

Sorry had to get my rebuttal in. If there are any more posts then lets move this stuff over to the Kargil thread.

 

[deltacamelately]

We were not the ones who had our soldiers laying down playing dead Pakistanis with Ketchup/Tomato sauce on their bellies so try not to impress us with the authenticity of Indian casualty reports and those too about the other side. There is an inherent tendency to bloat the figures when such claims are made.

Also the LoC heating up has less to do with whats going on in FATA and more to do with what you guys are up to in Baluchistan. Pakistan has no reason to open up two fronts unnecessarily. There is a realization in Islamabad that you guys are up to no good recently and also in no mood to talk peace. So things are starting to get hot elsewhere.

Blain2,
This is one was high level corruption involving some IA officers in their quest for making money through a much touted incentive scheme for claiming militants in the COIN exercises in J&K. Nothing to do with the PA.

However, I'm sure that it must not have missed your eyes, how the NLI regulars were disowned by the PA. Total disrespect for the young gallant soldiers who fought for their nation and were disowned by their Govt. for wretched political gains. I wish I could show you some of the file footage of NLI regulars being offered final rites by the IAs muslim servicemen. You won't believe though, ask the Brigadier, there had been heart wrenching incidents in the Kargil war, where regulars retreating to their logistic bases had been throwing dead or near dead associates in the deep ravines to avert confiscation of the dead bodies by the IA.
Your comments.

 

[deltacamelately]

Goodperson,

Check the timing of the posts before criticizing the 'Thanks'. Blain was typing his response while I was posting, and my thanks was regarding the clarification on Pakistan's position on the retrieval of the bodies.

The above report is the Indian version of the events is it not? And it is the skepticism surrounding the veracity of Indian claims that led to Blain pointing out the "ketchup incident".

There is a trend of 'disinformation' by the IA that is becoming apparent (lets also not forget the lies about torture by the PA during Kargil that were debunked by some in the Indian media itself), and the 'holes' in the latest 'story' just validate that suspicion.

Now, moving away from Kargil...

AM,
Any taboo thingy about the Kargil word here?
I just posted something related before reading your post.
regards,

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

There has been some more firing.

Kiyani is trying to undermine the Pak govt. He did it with the ISI reversal earlier.

He wants to return to the old days.

India must show patience for his juvenile behaviour.

We must continue the CBM which Vajpayee and Musharraf who had vision started. Let handicapped people on either side not ruin it!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Yes there are the Ketchup Colonels.

That is because of stupid policies of recognition.

Thank God, people have realised and it has been downgraded!

AM,

What is wrong with Kargil?

It is fair to state that none came to claim them, except for Sunni bodies and that too some!

But I would not like to get into that since it is not worth the trouble!