India & Pakistan Ceasefire Violations

[GHATAK]

Blain...one wonders who will have have the last laugh if you find out that there were indeed 3-4 Pakistanis KIA. Strange that Pak Army still had no information/confirmation about the incident at all. Speaks volume !!!

About the timing, you are entitled to have your own view while we can have ours.
what Indian strategists believe is a calibrated Pakistan Army effort to ratchet-up tensions on the LoC and thus justify pulling out troops from its unsuccessful counter-terrorism operations in the North West Frontier Province. Ideal situation to justify pulling out troops..while Pak PM is in US

Exactly.

Also, has pakistan army every given out the exact numnber of casuelties ??
Even in kargil, there were contradictions between Gen Mushraf's statements and what was in his book and then what Nawaj said.

 

[muse]

what Indian strategists believe is a calibrated Pakistan Army effort to ratchet-up tensions on the LoC and thus justify pulling out troops from its unsuccessful counter-terrorism operations in the North West Frontier Province. Ideal situation to justify pulling out troops..while Pak PM is in US

Obviously a indian psyops operation, it seems to suit Indian policy to make mischief on Pakistan's eatern border and thereby place troops on the Western border under greater pressure.

But just how far will Indian "strategists" take this dangerous game? Will they successfully goad Pakistan into punishing Indian beaviour on the eastern border? Will this "strategy" take the spot light away from kindsof problems the Indian econmy will face if not only naxalite but it's large Muslim population shall also become alienated from the state?

It is clear the indian mischief is for big stakes.

 

[shrivatsa]

Shrivastava,

Please don't just keep posting the same news story from different sources.

Offer some of your own opinion and comments - one link is enough, unless some important/useful info comes out later.

some of the member's dont accept indian news agencies credibility therefore more then one link and it is shrivatsa not shrivastava both has different meaning

 

[shrivatsa]

edited double post

 

[Sam Dhanraj]

According to TimesNow TV...the LOC firing stopped and a flag meeting between Pak Army and 22 Rajput is scheduled while DGMO's are going to talk on phone.

 

[Spring Onion]

"Whenever pressure mounts on India to make a tangible progress on
Kashmir issue, she starts skirmishes along the line of control, to
delay the progress. In line with her history Indian army again
resorted to firing on disputed Kashmir border"

Similalry whenever there is some high profile visit of any US or other important country in the region or even if any Indian or Pakistani leader is on US visit, The Indians resort to such cheap tactics to get world attention.




Pakistan, India trade fire along LoC


ISLAMABAD, July 26: Pakistani and Indian soldiers traded fire across
the Line of Control (LoC) on Saturday, Pakistan’s military said.


Military spokesman Maj-Gen Athar Abbas said the Indian army fired
machinegun bursts and mortar bombs at the Pakistani side of the LoC in
the Battal sector of Rawalakot district, where troops had a similar
exchange of fire on July 10.
“We immediately responded and fired into the area from where the fire
was coming. They later stopped firing,” he told Reuters. He said there
were no casualties on the Pakistani side.


“We contacted the Indians and lodged a protest and asked for a flag
meeting” of the local commanders, he added.

The Indian army denied Pakistan’s claims. Brig Gopala Krishanan
Murali, an army spokesman in occupied Kashmir, said the firing had
come from the Pakistani side.


“Some rogue elements, possibly infiltrators, fired rocket-propelled
guns and quickly disappeared,” Murali claimed. “We didn’t return the
fire.”


The armies of the nuclear-armed South Asian neighbours have frequently
exchanged fire across the LoC in the past but such skirmishes became
very rare after they agreed on a ceasefire in late 2003.


The two countries went to the brink of their fourth war in 2002. The
recent exchanges of fire on the LoC came as relations between the two
countries have been strained by an attack outside the Indian embassy
in Kabul earlier this month.---Reuters

 

[EagleEyes]

I remember few weeks ago India violated the cease fire. The Pakistan authorities showed concerns, but then India has violated the cease fire once again.

What is the solution to this never-ending problem other than the flag meetings etc..? It seems that Pakistan will have to respond more heavily and do some major damages across the border.

 

[Spring Onion]

Indian troops fire at Pakistani post on LoC

RAWALPINDI: Pakistan said on Thursday Indian forces fired on its troops deployed at a post in Hajira in the Rawalakot sector along the Line of Control (LoC).

The Pakistan Army strongly protested the violation of the 2003 LoC ceasefire by the Indian army when it resorted to unprovoked firing.

Inter-Services Public Relations Director General Maj Gen Athar Abbas told Daily Times that the firing started at 2pm. “Indian troops used small arms and mortars but none of the Pakistani soldiers was inured,” he said.

He said Pakistan army returned fire and also protested the unprovoked shelling by the Indian army.

“Pakistan is demanding an immediate meeting at the level of Directors General Military Operations,” he said.

Abbas said India had also violated the ceasefire on June 19 at the same sector by firing at Pakistani soldiers and four troops had died.

He said the Foreign Office would lodge a protest with the Indian government over the incident.

Indian Army spokesman Lt Col SD Goswami denied Pakistan’s statement, claiming that Pakistan-based militants had opened fire on the Indian forces as they tried to slip into the Indian-held Kashmir.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[cactuslily58]

I remember few weeks ago India violated the cease fire. The Pakistan authorities showed concerns, but then India has violated the cease fire once again.

What is the solution to this never-ending problem other than the flag meetings etc..? It seems that Pakistan will have to respond more heavily and do some major damages across the border.

Pakistan should then be prepared for the " more heavy response' from the Indian side.

The larger issue is that is this the correct way to handle a minor border issue ? Are we so fragile that such issues will undo months & years of patient work ?

If so, then so be it.

 

[Spring Onion]

[/B]



Pakistan should then be prepared for the " more heavy response' from the Indian side.

The larger issue is that is the correct way to handle a minor border issue ? Are we so fragile that such issues will undo months & years of patient work ?

If so, then so be it.

Well opening fire by Indian troops on Pakistani forces along LoC is one thing but in the past Indian army have been resorting to unprovoked firing on civilian population in Azad Kashmir from across the Line of Control
Many civilian Kashmiris were killed in such firing by Indians.

So tell me how to stop this ??

 

[cactuslily58]

Well opening fire by Indian troops on Pakistani forces along LoC is one thing but in the past Indian army have been resorting to unprovoked firing on civilian population in Azad Kashmir from across the Line of Control
Many civilian Kashmiris were killed in such firing by Indians.

So tell me how to stop this ??

I wonder how many of us are aware of the pressures & psyche of a soldier on the LC staring across no man's land, wary of the unmarked minefield around him..living at the end of a tenuous logistic chain.

Jana, there are many ways to stop firing both unprovoked or otherwise but the method suggested by Webmaster is the surest way of NOT stopping it.

Coming back to the firing,.. such border incidents are the result of any / all of the following :

1. A cover to infiltration or to send / receive someone.
2. A result of a trigger happy soldier / young officer full of ' josh' & with high testosterone levels and a " I'll show them.." attitude.
3. A misunderstanding when patrols bump / clash into each other.
4. A reply to abuses which are invariably traded when posts are within earshot of each other.
5. An attempt to gain psychological ascendancy over the enemy , more so when one of the belligerents are new on their posts.
6. Testing preparedness.
7. A diversionary move.

A solution to any of these factors would help in answering ur Q. This is the best I can suggest under the circumstances.

Essentially, so long as motivated men fully armed to their teeth away from family & hearth are kept apart from each other in the manner we do such events will happen. They require to be contained & snuffed ASAP before an incident turns into an ugly conflagration.

Lastly, at the LC there are no Indians firing at Pakistanis or vice versa. Whoever gets a chance to inflict damage to the other will does so with no thought of where his bullet will hit or shell will land.

 

[deltacamelately]

I remember few weeks ago India violated the cease fire. The Pakistan authorities showed concerns, but then India has violated the cease fire once again.

What is the solution to this never-ending problem other than the flag meetings etc..? It seems that Pakistan will have to respond more heavily and do some major damages across the border.

WM,
My first reply to you since I joined.
Being a Mod, would have appreciated a more detailed and realistic analysis from your end. The problem is not only deep but very subtle as well.
Wish such oneliners could actually put an end to such altercations.

Get this clear...Neither India nor Pakistan is geared up for going all out.
Heavy Response and Major Damages would mean an all out war.
Nobody wants to cross the nuclear rubicon. Gung ho as much as the PA Generals may want the Pakistani population to believe they are, they know the stakes are just too high. AYMA, India maintains 2 Strike Corps which have been raised and trained as a sledgehammer to cut accross central Pakistan dismembering the northern and southern territories. This was a accepted doctrine enshrined in General Sunderji's concept of the final war with Pakistan.
Today with the nuclear equation in play, IA fully understands the limitation of such a doctrine and has come up with a more lean n mean one, "The Cold Start", which is absolutely Pakistan centric.
Had your assertion of some heavy response and major damages, held some water and viability, trust me, your Generals would have seriously considered that. Problem is nobody wants to push the other to a corner of serious discomfort, the stakes are bit too high.
So the MOS is, either keep talking or prepare for another war.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Blain...one wonders who will have have the last laugh if you find out that there were indeed 3-4 Pakistanis KIA. Strange that Pak Army still had no information/confirmation about the incident at all. Speaks volume !!!

About the timing, you are entitled to have your own view while we can have ours.
what Indian strategists believe is a calibrated Pakistan Army effort to ratchet-up tensions on the LoC and thus justify pulling out troops from its unsuccessful counter-terrorism operations in the North West Frontier Province. Ideal situation to justify pulling out troops..while Pak PM is in US

Sam,

The disbelief over the Indian allegations is valid, especially when you statements like these issued:

” The infiltration took place at 3:00 pm (0930 GMT), an Indian army statement said. “After that our troops also retaliated and the Pakistani troops withdrew. We don't know yet whether Pakistani troops suffered any casualties. The exchange of fire is continuing in the area,” the army statement added."

Pakistani soldiers 200m into Indian territory, close enough to have a verbal altercation, shoot one Indian soldier and then run away.

If 3-4 KIA, and one body in fact lying on the Indian side, why the initial lack of confirmation on casualties?

At the very least the IA would have had confirmation of one Pakistani soldier KIA from the get go.

Casualties may have occurred on the Pakistani side, but the manner in which the incident has been described and the differing IA statements leave a lot of room for skepticism about their validity.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Problem is nobody wants to push the other to a corner of serious discomfort, the stakes are bit too high.
So the MOS is, either keep talking or prepare for another war.

Well said Delta sahib,

Lets keep talking indeed, there has been so much movement on CBM's in the last year or so that it would be a shame to waste all that effort and change.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sam,

On finding an excuse to not deploy on the Western Front - AFAIK the majority of the PA is still focused on the Eastern Front - and Pakistan had started making clear almost 2 years ago under Musharraf that it wanted to utilize the FC as the primary CI force in FATA, a policy that Kiyani has strongly supported as well.

The above was the reason behind initiating the capacity building program for the FC with US assistance.