India & Pakistan Ceasefire Violations

[IceCold]

Which hardliners? BJP? The BJP isn't in power friend.

Your government is following one path, and the army is doing the exact opposite.

What is the most logical conclusion? The two aren't listening to each other.

Besides, it is an established fact that the Pak Army and ISI regulary acts independenly of the civilian government. Don't tell me that you have no clue about these realities.

Dont tell me that just because BJP isnt in the government, does not mean there are no hardliners in the current regime. Remember that congress has much much stronger stance on pakistan as compared to anyother rulling party in india.
And it is not an established fact, it just that you guys are on some sort of mission to prove a point. Army does not act independently without the consent of the rulling party, this impression of army acting alone that you guys have is only because of what NS did in kargil otherwise its all baseless. But the fact of the matter was that he had no balls at all to take a stand and decided to make Musharraf the scape goat putting on blame on him. Even now PM, NS and Zardari are briefed on every new development that is taking place inside and outside pakistan by the army and there is not way in hell army could act on its own, ISI included without the permission of the new government. And let me tell something else also, before the election ISI was reporting to the president now with the new government this has changed and from now on it will report to the PM.

 

[JEFF]

Dont tell me that just because BJP isnt in the government, does not mean there are no hardliners in the current regime.

Oh really, then tell me which gimmacks of BJP you liked the most which in turn makes you think the above?

 

[Flintlock]

Dont tell me that just because BJP isnt in the government, does not mean there are no hardliners in the current regime. Remember that congress has much much stronger stance on pakistan as compared to anyother rulling party in india.

Look, the government of India has several different voices within it, but policy decisions are, well, policy decisions.
The armed forces, intelligence agencies and foreign service, all follow government directions. There is no independent or rogue action.

When the elephant makes up its mind and takes a step, its tail isn't left behind.

And it is not an established fact, it just that you guys are on some sort of mission to prove a point. Army does not act independently without the consent of the rulling party, this impression of army acting alone that you guys have is only because of what NS did in kargil otherwise its all baseless.

So Musharraf's coup was sanctioned by the civilian government?

But the fact of the matter was that he had no balls at all to take a stand and decided to make Musharraf the scape goat putting on blame on him. Even now PM, NS and Zardari are briefed on every new development that is taking place inside and outside pakistan by the army and there is not way in hell army could act on its own, ISI included without the permission of the new government. And let me tell something else also, before the election ISI was reporting to the president now with the new government this has changed and from now on it will report to the PM.

All your explanations aside, the facts speak for themselves.

The Pakistani army, the Civilian government, The Presidency and the Judiciary are currently (and perpetually) engaged in a bitter power struggle.

Musharraf managed to win this struggle for a while, by subduing the Judiciary and Civilian government.
However, the current civilian government is chaotic, weak, and cannot plan out a coherent policy.
Enough commentaries have been written about the ISI acting as a state within a state, and about the all-pervasive military.

I think these things are well known, I do not need to go into unnecessary detail.

 

[Flintlock]

On a related note to Murad's point about the proximity of the civilian population to the LOC - during the days of regular LoC firing, there were always reports of civilians being shot, houses catching fire, and being destroyed during the exchanges (On the Pakistani side).

Yeah....there were similar reports on the Indian side.

The only difference I guess, was that the reporters went live on air during the firing....ah...the glory days of Indian TV reporting...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The Pakistani army, the Civilian government, The Presidency and the Judiciary are currently (and perpetually) engaged in a bitter power struggle.

Musharraf managed to win this struggle for a while, by subduing the Judiciary and Civilian government.
However, the current civilian government is chaotic, weak, and cannot plan out a coherent policy.
Enough commentaries have been written about the ISI acting as a state within a state, and about the all-pervasive military.

I think these things are well known, I do not need to go into unnecessary detail.

Stealth:

While the power struggle between the military and political establishment has existed, it would be incorrect to suggest that it is perpetual. Under certain Chiefs the Army has avoided interfering in politics, and often it has been the politicians who have involved the Military to accomplish their goals.

Regardless of past "power struggles", the Army is widely recognized as a disciplined and professional institution, and this particular COAS has made a point to distance both himself and other senior serving officers from the political establishment. He has chosen to withdraw Army personnel from almost every civilian institution they were deployed in, and focused on improving the living conditions of the average soldier and their families. He has also repeatedly and pointedly stated that the Army will follow whatever policy the GoP sets.

The Army leadership realizes that the last couple of years under Musharraf, and the perception that the military was pursuing US diktat in the WoT, have led to rising sentiment against the Army in the public. This has been exacerbated by the proliferation of private electronic media which has allowed for much faster and wider dissemination of information and opinions than was ever possible before.

The Army is not going to interfere or undermine the political process or policies under this COAS, that much is clear. The ISI under a Musharraf confidante might be involved in attempting to undermine the PML-N (and by extension the coalition government), but given Musharraf's policies towards India, it is highly unlikely that he would be supportive of vitiating the atmosphere.

Unless you can provide some new information, nothing in the present situation and atmosphere suggests that the Army or ISI are working at cross purposes to the civilian government with respect to the policy towards India.

 

[IceCold]

Stealth:

While the power struggle between the military and political establishment has existed, it would be incorrect to suggest that it is perpetual. Under certain Chiefs the Army has avoided interfering in politics, and often it has been the politicians who have involved the Military to accomplish their goals.

Regardless of past "power struggles", the Army is widely recognized as a disciplined and professional institution, and this particular COAS has made a point to distance both himself and other senior serving officers from the political establishment. He has chosen to withdraw Army personnel from almost every civilian institution they were deployed in, and focused on improving the living conditions of the average soldier and their families. He has also repeatedly and pointedly stated that the Army will follow whatever policy the GoP sets.

The Army leadership realizes that the last couple of years under Musharraf, and the perception that the military was pursuing US diktat in the WoT, have led to rising sentiment against the Army in the public. This has been exacerbated by the proliferation of private electronic media which has allowed for much faster and wider dissemination of information and opinions than was ever possible before.

The Army is not going to interfere or undermine the political process or policies under this COAS, that much is clear. The ISI under a Musharraf confidante might be involved in attempting to undermine the PML-N (and by extension the coalition government), but given Musharraf's policies towards India, it is highly unlikely that he would be supportive of vitiating the atmosphere.

Unless you can provide some new information, nothing in the present situation and atmosphere suggests that the Army or ISI are working at cross purposes to the civilian government with respect to the policy towards India.

Rather well said AM. Even ISI would not report to the president anymore, it will report to the PM. So no chance at all of them acting alone or against the governments will.

 

[IceCold]

Oh really, then tell me which gimmacks of BJP you liked the most which in turn makes you think the above?

Yes really!

 

[Flintlock]

Stealth:
While the power struggle between the military and political establishment has existed, it would be incorrect to suggest that it is perpetual. Under certain Chiefs the Army has avoided interfering in politics, and often it has been the politicians who have involved the Military to accomplish their goals.

If not perpetual, this power struggle certainly has a long and chequered history.

Pakistan has alternated between Military and Civilian government, and the constitution has undergone major changes without the consent of either judiciary or Parliament.

Regardless of past "power struggles", the Army is widely recognized as a disciplined and professional institution, and this particular COAS has made a point to distance both himself and other senior serving officers from the political establishment. He has chosen to withdraw Army personnel from almost every civilian institution they were deployed in, and focused on improving the living conditions of the average soldier and their families. He has also repeatedly and pointedly stated that the Army will follow whatever policy the GoP sets.

I am sure the army is disciplined and professional. Without this discipline and professionalism, it could have never formed a functioning government.

Unless you can provide some new information, nothing in the present situation and atmosphere suggests that the Army or ISI are working at cross purposes to the civilian government with respect to the policy towards India.

Well, then what explains the border firing and infiltration attempts?

Were they just some low-level officers acting on their own accord, or was this an attempt to derail the talks?

Read this:
Former RAW chief warns of ISI designs on Indian Muslims- Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times

Terrorist training camps still intact in Azad Kashmir, say its leaders

 

[IceCold]

Read this:
Former RAW chief warns of ISI designs on Indian Muslims- Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times

Terrorist training camps still intact in ***, say its leaders

Your second article is complete BS Stealth. Allow me to explain as to why. You see it says that the only reason this infiltration is low because of the newly elected democratic government, this is nonsense because according to this article then, the infiltration should have been all time high in musharraf's era, which by the way was not the case and you leaders have accpeted this reality, infact back then i remember reading an article which stated from the indian side that they do not trust BB and will continue to do business with Musharraf. So all of a sudden all hopes gone down with musharraf and up with the new government and then also as you claim that the newly develop government cannot control the army and the ISI, this article of yours proves you wrong as well, because it is stating that because of the new government this infiltration is low other ISI would have continued to carry on with such sinister moves.
The point is pakistan army as stated before does not act on its own and specfically with the foreign policy matters. So to assume that pakistan army is acting on its own just to sabotage the CBMs is nothing more then a mere fantasy. ISI included.

 

[IceCold]

Updated at: 1513 PST, Saturday, July 26, 2008
Indian troops fire at Battal check post in RawalakotISLAMABAD: Indian forces fired on Pakistani troops deployed at a check post of Battal in Daramsal area along Line of Control on Saturday.

Pakistani troops returned fire but there was no report of casualties.

"Indian troops fired mortars and machine gun at Battal in Rawalakot sector at 11 am (0500 GMT) Saturday but there were no casualties on our side," ISPR spokesman Major General Athar Abbas said.

He said Pakistani troops retaliated with "full force" to stop the "unprovoked" Indian fire.

"We have demanded an immediate flag meeting between senior military officials of the two countries," Abbas added.

 

[IceCold]

It seems Indians are asking for it. They are trying to get the undue advantage of the situation Pakistan is. I wonder what Mr.10% has to say, considering the fact he wants to put everything aside and work his way up with India.

 

[Awesome]

I would say such things happen...

One idiot takes a cheap shot, next you know whole check posts are duking it out and you never get to know who started it.

The priority should be to stop the hostilities and then each conducts an internal investigations and settles it.

 

[Xeric]

A trigger happy idiot can always screw up the things.....

 

[Goodperson]

Its the other way round as per Indian media. btw why would Indian forces fire ? India does not give cover to militants sneaking or crossing boundaries.

Another ceasefire violation by Pak troops in Kashmir
27 Jul 2008, 0309 hrs IST,TNN

NEW DELHI: After almost five years of relative calm, ceasefire violations along the Line of Control by Pakistani troops are almost becoming a regular feature now.

The latest incident took place on Saturday morning when there was heavy cross-border firing in Krishnaghati sector of Jammu and Kashmir.

While the Indian DGMO (director-general of military operations) lodged a "strong protest" with his Pakistani counterpart about the incident, Pakistani Army in turn claimed it was actually the Indian Army which had opened fire first.

Indian Army officers, however, said their troops had opened fire at some "unidentified militants" who were ‘‘seen on our side of the LoC" at about 8.30 am.

Another ceasefire violation by Pak troops in Kashmir-India-The Times of India

 

[su-47]

well, in the end the truth remains clouded. it would be pointless for us to start a flame war here for that. its not going to reveal the truth, and articles from either country will blame the other as the one who started firing.