India & Pakistan Ceasefire Violations

[IceCold]

Wouldnt it be better if india focus all her energies on finding the Jaipur culprits, and not by blaming others and highlighting issues that never existed at the first place, just to sideline the real issue which inturn shows how incompetent the indians really are when it comes to finding the perpetrators.

 

[JEFF]

Wouldnt it be better if india focus all her energies on finding the Jaipur culprits, and not by blaming others and highlighting issues that never existed at the first place,

How can you says that issues never existed at the first place? Since one can see some sort of the validity in the statement of Indian establishment especially when one takes into account the major incidents of intrusion of militants across LOC and successive skrimmishes between Indian forces and militant that was taken places a couple of days back.

just to sideline the real issue

Accusations of Indian establishments doesn't mean that it is sidelining the real issue, you have to takes into account wide spectrum of terror act behind which increasing intrusion through the LOC a few days back and successive explosion in jaipur while investigating a partiuler matter.

which inturn shows how incompetent the indians really are when it comes to finding the perpetrators.

Indians don't have a magic wand or a supernatural eyes by which they can trace the locations of potential perpetrators overnight, it takes some time since it is highly likely that those terrorist cowards might be hiding in their rathole as deep as possible. Indians know that there is some sort of the connection between this deadly explosions and intrusions a while back and hence they are assessing a whole events before concluding their final reports.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Wouldnt it be better if india focus all her energies on finding the Jaipur culprits, and not by blaming others and highlighting issues that never existed at the first place, just to sideline the real issue which inturn shows how incompetent the indians really are when it comes to finding the perpetrators.

It is that you don't understand that all know who are the real perpetrators.

But then, it is worthwhile to catch the real handmaidens!

That aside, rather coincidental and things are warming up after the Pakistan govt finds itself tottering.

There was five years of ceasefire when there was stability in Pakistan with Musharraf firm in the saddle.

The hardly appointed ISI boss was shown the door by the democratic govt of Pakistan and then they could not kiss and make up and started tottering even before six weeks was up and the whole show begins!!

Rather a coincidence, what?

The new ISI boss must have also suggested that ''peace'' be sued for with the terrorists in NWFP and FATA as if Musharraf was messing up things.

Terrorists nowhere are a cause for peace and a weak govt is the worst thing that a country deserve because they have to constantly divert the attention of the people with populist measures and spectacular ones at that too!!

 

[IceCold]

How can you says that issues never existed at the first place? Since one can see some sort of the validity in the statement of Indian establishment especially when one takes into account the major incidents of intrusion of militants across LOC and successive skrimmishes between Indian forces and militant that was taken places a couple of days back.

What validity are you talking about JEFF? You see its a one sided accusion as it always have been. Pakistani side still wondering what are the indians are ranting all about?

Accusations of Indian establishments doesn't mean that it is sidelining the real issue, you have to takes into account wide spectrum of terror act behind which increasing intrusion through the LOC a few days back and successive explosion in jaipur while investigating a partiuler matter.

Baseless accusations mean that indeed india wants to trun the public anger towards pakistan and BD and sideline the incompetence of the authorities, which is why such warning are given at the first place. Tell me why would pakistan want to do something when CBM is going on and if i remember correctly wasnt it the indian PM who said he did not want to loose this opportunity as every political party almost entirely change its manifesto regarding india and kashmir. I cant find one logic pakistan currently would do something like this.

Indians don't have a magic wand or a supernatural eyes by which they can trace the locations of potential perpetrators overnight, it takes some time since it is highly likely that those terrorist cowards might be hiding in their rathole as deep as possible. Indians know that there is some sort of the connection between this deadly explosions and intrusions a while back and hence they are assessing a whole events before concluding their final reports.

It seems that india does have a magic wand when it comes to prediciting results and accusing pakistan or BD for that matter. Jana posted in an another thread about the way indian media is responding to this and pressurizing the GOI to hit back on pakistan and BD.

 

[IceCold]

It is that you don't understand that all know who are the real perpetrators.

But then, it is worthwhile to catch the real handmaidens!

That aside, rather coincidental and things are warming up after the Pakistan govt finds itself tottering.

There was five years of ceasefire when there was stability in Pakistan with Musharraf firm in the saddle.

The hardly appointed ISI boss was shown the door by the democratic govt of Pakistan and then they could not kiss and make up and started tottering even before six weeks was up and the whole show begins!!

Rather a coincidence, what?

The new ISI boss must have also suggested that ''peace'' be sued for with the terrorists in NWFP and FATA as if Musharraf was messing up things.

Terrorists nowhere are a cause for peace and a weak govt is the worst thing that a country deserve because they have to constantly divert the attention of the people with populist measures and spectacular ones at that too!!

It seems that ISI paranoia have started to haunt you again Mr.Salim.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I heard Gen Durrani in a Panel Discussion on Television yesterday where Gen Durrani, Sajad Lone, Major Maruf and some others were on the show.

I am waiting to hear the famous Gen Hamid Gul.

It seems that ISI paranoia have started to haunt you again Mr.Salim.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

We have had one major intrusion effort, with no support from the Pakistani side, and now this alleged incident, the Pakistani response to which indicates that not everything is above board in terms of what the Indians are alleging.

Pakistan denies Indian charge of LoC truce violation​

Thursday, May 15, 2008
SRINAGAR: The Indian army accused Pakistan on Wednesday of violating a ceasefire by firing a cross the Line of Control (LoC). But Pakistan denied that any firing had taken place.

The reported firing comes days after an incident last Friday when New Delhi said its soldiers came under heavy cross-border fire while trying to stop a group of militants from sneaking into held Kashmir. It was this year's worst border incident. A ceasefire is in place since November 2003.

"Last (Tuesday) evening, Pakistan army resorted to unprovoked firing in Kupwara sector, our troops did not retaliate, no one was hurt," said Indian army spokesman, Lt-Col AK Mathur. "This is the ceasefire violation by the Pakistani army." But Pakistan's military said no such incident took place.

"It's incorrect. We have refuted it and have informed India at a high-level there has been no such incident," Inter-Services Public Relations Director-General Maj-Gen Athar Abbas said. He said a Pakistan army commander in the area was also contacting his Indian counterpart to inform him that there had been no violation of the ceasefire by the Pakistani troops.

Indian Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon said on Wednesday terrorism issues would be high on agenda in the Islamabad talks. "The fact is, infiltration itself is a problem. We will deal with it on the ground and also bilaterally with Pakistan," Menon said, who would be visiting Pakistan this month.

Adding to tension in Kashmir, eight people were killed when Indian soldiers clashed with militants in a village in India's part of the Himalayan region over the weekend, in some of the worse violence there this year.
Pakistan denies Indian charge of LoC truce violation

Again, this is not typical. After a major ceasefire violation you would have each side blaming the other, but Pakistan has no idea of what the Indians are talking about!

Deflection to appease public sentiment.

Salim,

I think you are overreacting on the "new government heralding increased terrorism" aspect.

As of now there has only been one major infiltration attempt that was detected (this ceasefire violation cannot be validated as yet), and even there the Pakistan SF's did not facilitate by resorting to the tactics of before.

 

[Flintlock]

^^^Apparently India has photographic evidence!!

I don't know why India doesn't do this more often. They should authorize video cameras with telescopic lenses to all patrolling units and then release the pictures freely to the media.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Three attempts as far as I recall.

One nearly succeeded at hitting the military family quarters!

However, Pakistani SF cannot be blamed. They were as clueless about it! Wily militants. They nearly fooled Indian SF too!

But then, one takes all this in one's stride.

The new govt has its internal problems and the militant organisations, sensing the apparent weakness of the govt, unlike that of Musharraf's, has come overground and openly moving around. They are also openly undertaking its agenda.

It is no one's fault. It is the weakness of the situation, not only in Pakistan, but also in India.

Coalition govts work on compromise and turning the Nelson's eye and are feeble in implementing strong governance.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Some more details, and a reference to the "photographic evidence" that Stealth mentioned.

Should be noted that the Indian side stated that there were no militants involved, as should be the fact that the Pakistani side has not reacted with hostility, but rather assured an investigation into the incident.

Nothing in here supports the "change in atmosphere" due to a shaky coalition government you are suggesting Salim.

Concerns about underground groups operating with more freedom than before in Pakistan are justified however - but I would repeat my argument that the new GoP needs more time to find its feet (get beyond the uncertainty of the judges issue), and take action.

Pakistan assures India it will probe ceasefire violation​

Posted May 15th, 2008 by Mudassir Rizwan

* India News

By IANS,

New Delhi : Pakistan has assured India it will investigate the ceasefire violation after New Delhi registered a formal protest against Pakistani troops opening fire on Indian positions along the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir, an army official said Thursday.

In a flag meeting held between India and Pakistan at Tangdhar along the LoC Wednesday evening, the Indian Army registered its formal protest against the violation of the 2003 ceasefire.

"In yesterday's meeting held between battalion commanders, a formal complaint (verbally) has been given to the Pakistan Army along with photo evidence of bullet marks," the army official said.

While denying any violation of the ceasefire, Pakistan Army authorities have "assured investigation of the matter".

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh described as "worrisome" the truce violation that occurred when Pakistani troops opened fire in the Tangdhar sector Tuesday evening.

The incident, however, will not lead to any rescheduling of President Pratibha Patil's visit to the Tangdhar sector May 23, officials said here.

Senior officers of the two armies spoke on the hotline Wednesday to resolve the imbroglio. The director general of military operations (DGMO), Lt. Gen. A.S. Sekhon, spoke with his Pakistani counterpart Maj. Gen. A.S. Pasha at 3 p.m., an Indian Army officer said in New Delhi.

According to the officer, this was the first time that firing along the LoC was being classified as a truce violation.

"In the past too, Pakistani troops have opened fire in support of infiltrators who were trying to sneak across. The fire was returned from our side.

"This time, there was no infiltration involved and our troops did not return fire. Therefore, we have classified it as a truce violation. We hope this will not recur," the officer said.

The DGMOs normally speak on the hotline once a week on Tuesdays.

Indian Army spokesman Lt. Col. A.K. Mathur said in Srinagar: "Pakistani troops resorted to unprovoked firing on our posts. They fired scores of rounds. However, we did not retaliate."

There were no casualties on the Indian side.
Pakistan assures India it will probe ceasefire violation | TwoCircles.net

 

[Flintlock]

Militants gathering on border: BSF

NDTV Correspondent
Thursday, May 15, 2008 (New Delhi, Jammu)

Within days of the encounter in Samba the Director General of the Border Security Force AK Mitra has said that there is evidence that militants are establishing launching pads across the border.

''We need to ensure that such incidents are not repeated in future. For this we are taking several steps to strengthen security in the region,'' said A K Mitra, Director-General, BSF.

According to AK Mitra additional BSF jawans are being rushed to the area. This revelation comes just days ahead of foreign minister level talks between India and Pakistan.

Fake currency

IANS adds: The Border Security Force (BSF) on Thursday claimed that it has foiled an attempt to smuggle into the country heroine worth millions of rupees and fake currency worth Rs 1.6 million from Pakistan across the international border (IB) here.

Additional Deputy Inspector General JB Sangwan told newspersons that some smugglers tried to bring in a consignment across the IB in RS Pora sector late on Wednesday night.

''Our men challenged them and they (smugglers) left the consignment and went back into Pakistani area,'' said Sangwan. The BSF said the consignment had 60 kg of heroine worth Rs 30 million and fake currency notes worth Rs.1.6 million in denominations of 500 and 1,000.

Earlier in the week, the BSF claimed that it foiled an infiltration bid by militants in the Glarh sector.

''We were able to successfully push back all infiltrators, who were about 15 in number,'' Sangwan said.

But the security agencies expressed reservations about the claim and said they felt some infiltrators did manage to sneak into Indian side.

An attack at Kehli Mandi near Samba by militants that claimed eight lives and injured 11 others is said to be the handiwork of the insurgents who infiltrated into the area.

NDTV.com: Militants gathering on border: BSF

 

[JEFF]

What validity are you talking about JEFF? You see its a one sided accusion as it always have been.

If it was a one sided accusation then why doesn't Pakistani establishment come down heavily on it as usual and talk about reconsidering CBM it has maintained with India for a long time?

Pakistani side still wondering what are the indians are ranting all about?

Well such wondering can be understood under the light of CBM that it has inked with India.

Baseless accusations mean that indeed india wants to trun the public anger towards pakistan and BD

What public anger are you talking about? you mean that accusations of Pakistan and BD is a big news and it makes People angry, over here nobody longer thinks that Pakistan or BD are the only key allege of terrorism.

and sideline the incompetence of the authorities,

Opps sidelining the incompetence, or did you failed to see immense focus upon competence of intelligence authorities in the investigation?

Heck in my daily newspaper, there is nothing anything about accusations of Pakistan or BD, they still highlighthing number of news and publications of findings of Intelligence agencies.

which is why such warning are given at the first place.

I think your assessment is completely invalid about Indian media's pressure over the GOI to pressurize Pakistan.

Tell me why would pakistan want to do something when CBM is going on

Nobody is accusing entire Pakistan, rather all noise that is being made over here is about operative of terror outfits over the Pakistani occupied kashmir.
GOI is all saying that Pakistani authorities should tighten the screw over the operating camps.

and if i remember correctly wasnt it the indian PM who said he did not want to loose this opportunity as every political party almost entirely change its manifesto regarding india and kashmir.

Well different politicians in India have their different opinion about India's state of Kashmir.

I cant find one logic pakistan currently would do something like this.

Nobody accusing Pakistan for this, just giving the warning about tighting the its screw over the terror outfits operating in Indian occupied kashmir.

It seems that india does have a magic wand when it comes to prediciting results and accusing pakistan or BD for that matter.

Well so it only goes on to show that you don't want to see positive sides of India.

Jana posted in an another thread about the way indian media is responding to this and pressurizing the GOI to hit back on pakistan and BD.

Oh tell Jana, that she has a long way to go in order to understand Indian Media.

 

[vish]

There was one infiltration attempt at the IB, where the Pakistani Rangers opened fire when the Indian Forces fired at the infiltrators. This either was in support of the infiltrators, or might be a reaction to the Indian fire on the militants. My hunch, and please bear with me here, is that the former is more true.

There was one truce violation which has been registered by the Indian Forces. What is remarkable here that Pakistan "denies" the violation but "will probe it". My hunch is that a violation did occur; not an authorized one, just that somebody got trigger happy.

The worrying part is all signs indicate that infiltration is picking up. Though I will not say that the GoP is "behind" this, one cannot deny that there are sections in Pakistani society (political, military, intelligence, civilian) who do support this terrorism and make constant efforts to keep it alive and strengthen it. We’ll have to wait till the new government stabilizes before we can judge its capability in containing these "sections."

I no longer believe that such activities have any moral reasoning ("Kashmir liberation," "Muslims are exploited in India," "India supports the evil US"). They are carried out so that their perpetuators can "attract" more misguided youth and "donations," and enrich and empower them further in the process. All this does have collateral damage though. Post-9/11, the world does not "accept" the argument that such "movements" are "liberation struggles;" these are now increasingly seen as "terrorism." The only actors who suffer from these "wonderful actions" are Pakistan, Islam, and its disciples.

 

[IceCold]

If it was a one sided accusation then why doesn't Pakistani establishment come down heavily on it as usual and talk about reconsidering CBM it has maintained with India for a long time?

It is onesided and pakistan and already dismissed such accusions however why would we want to reconsider CBM unless ofcourse india wants to do it. Today the defence sec was saying that whenever and indian leader is to visit pakistan such accusations from the hardliners are seen, this one is no exception.

Well such wondering can be understood under the light of CBM that it has inked with India.

Kindly enlighten me on this one how so??

What public anger are you talking about? you mean that accusations of Pakistan and BD is a big news and it makes People angry, over here nobody longer thinks that Pakistan or BD are the only key allege of terrorism.

Public anger of those who have lost a dear one. Now dont tell me that isnt any public anger at all. Now if people of india does not think that pakistan and BD is the only key to terrorism that its a good sign, but your media isnt playing an ideal role to support such sentiments rather provoking it on the other side.

Opps sidelining the incompetence, or did you failed to see immense focus upon competence of intelligence authorities in the investigation?

If that was the case, then we would never have heard the same old story of ISI and its ilks.

Heck in my daily newspaper, there is nothing anything about accusations of Pakistan or BD, they still highlighthing number of news and publications of findings of Intelligence agencies.

Really! then you may have missed the news.

I think your assessment is completely invalid about Indian media's pressure over the GOI to pressurize Pakistan.

No infact my assessment is actually completely valid, AM pointed the same thing as well. Indian media pressure on the GOI to have a tough stance on pakistan. The hardliners does not want to see CBMs going on.

Nobody is accusing entire Pakistan, rather all noise that is being made over here is about operative of terror outfits over the Pakistani occupied kashmir.
GOI is all saying that Pakistani authorities should tighten the screw over the operating camps.

The word entirely does not change the fact that india is accusing pakistan of sponspering terrorism. Its just because the CBMs were going on, india for now avoided harsh statements over pakistan, but the accusions have always been there and the same thing you just pointed out "Pakistan needs to tighten the screw" I hope you understand the meaning of this line which falls in the category of accusion unless of course you have a different meaning for the word accusion.

Well different politicians in India have their different opinion about India's state of Kashmir.

Meaning what? are you tring to imply that pm of india is an incompetent person, because he cant really see the reality of pakistan sponsoring terrorsim?

Nobody accusing Pakistan for this, just giving the warning about tighting the its screw over the terror outfits operating in Indian occupied kashmir.

I hope you can understand the fact that you only give warning to those whom you accuse of something. India gave warning to pakistan because india is accusing pakistan of sponsoring terrorism.

Well so it only goes on to show that you don't want to see positive sides of India.

Positive side? you mean accusing and giving warning is a positive side.

Oh tell Jana, that she has a long way to go in order to understand Indian Media.

I need not! she can understand well better then you and i can.

 

[JEFF]

It is onesided and pakistan and already dismissed such accusions

If it has dismissed such accusation and it is one sided then why does Pakistan has decided to probe into this matter? Because if it ever were one sided then even Pakistan may have issued hardliner straight have saying that there were nothing anything wrong with Pakistani side of the border. Their readiness to go for an investigation only goes on to show that definitely something might have unfair happened on their part as well.

however why would we want to reconsider CBM unless ofcourse india wants to do it.

Nope India don’t have any such intention, in the meantime India may have giving the warning as it might be well within the limits of very CBM. If accusation were so one-sided and Pakistan sincerely believe that India is false in making a noise then it may definitely reinstated its position by reconsidering the CBM.

Today the defence sec was saying that whenever and indian leader is to visit pakistan such accusations from the hardliners are seen, this one is no exception.

Now who are this hardliners? Where they are hailing from.

Kindly enlighten me on this one how so??

Well I said that when Pakistan can straight away said that there is nothing anything wrong with them without any investigations then I guess they are valid in wondering why India is ranting about trivial matter.

Public anger of those who have lost a dear one. Now dont tell me that isnt any public anger at all.

Well, those dear ones are following each and every news and speculation closely and so far there is nothing anything being proven upon this issue as where does those terror outfits are hailing from or none of them have been traced, so it only goes on to show that they simply cannot afford to accuse Pak or BD for their victims. But in contrast legacy of Pakistani association of terror outfits creating a havoc in India, yes they definitely might be accusing Pakistan for this mess but no upon what media has to say.

Now if people of india does not think that pakistan and BD is the only key to terrorism that its a good sign, but your media isnt playing an ideal role to support such sentiments rather provoking it on the other side.

But all those media statements are nothing but a part of speculation of taken into consideration present context where nothing substantial has been exhumed.

See as I said before extensive legacy of Pakistani association with terror outfits operating in India has making Indian media to point its fingere towards Pakistan as first allege, but that doesn’t mean that Pakistan is an prime suspect unless it is proven by intelligence system

If that was the case, then we would never have heard the same old story of ISI and its ilks.

See but it depends upon the reporting of intelligence personnel.

Really! then you may have missed the news.

Well, if there was so much sensationalism or a truth in that accusation of Pakistan then it may have become the front page story, but I have to said that you just failed to see other parts of publication about intelligence reports and dententions.

No infact my assessment is actually completely valid, AM pointed the same thing as well. Indian media pressure on the GOI to have a tough stance on pakistan.

Well when Pakistan has decided to proceed further with the investigation then one can assume that more or less some sort of a validity were there in Indian media while pressurizing Indian Government, morever Indian media also pressurizing GOI over tibeten issue but media doesn’t get to see what it wanted to yield by pressurizing tactics over GOI.

The hardliners does not want to see CBMs going on.

Well if that was the case then CBM may never have conceived.

The word entirely does not change the fact that india is accusing pakistan of sponspering terrorism.

Now this upto to know to understand whatever the kind of a language you want, but those words only goes on to show that accusations doesn’t mean Pakistan sponsoring the terrorism.

Its just because the CBMs were going on, india for now avoided harsh statements over pakistan, but the accusions have always been there

So if CBM weren’t there in place then you admit that Pakistan really sponsoring the terrorism, if ever thaught something like that then we never may have inked CBM.

and the same thing you just pointed out "Pakistan needs to tighten the screw" I hope you understand the meaning of this line which falls in the category of accusion unless of course you have a different meaning for the word accusion.

Well I also said something more interlinking that particular sentence which is decorated in inverted commas above. The Meaning behind those may also have been that India were trying to suggest Pakistan that they should improve security in their own backyard to curb movement of terror outfits and don’t let them cross LOC which is quite evident from recent intrusion across the border.

Meaning what? are you tring to imply that pm of india is an incompetent person, because he cant really see the reality of pakistan sponsoring terrorsim?

Well I said that Indian PM has its own stance for Kashmir issue, but I don’t understand the fact that how did you manage to generalize my essence in such blatant way.

I hope you can understand the fact that you only give warning to those whom you accuse of something.

Yes, but that doesn’t mean that I just create an all new meaning from that accusation or warning, rather only give warning to those segments to which I have some serious trouble.

India gave warning to pakistan because india is accusing pakistan of sponsoring terrorism.

See accusing Pakistan for tighten the screw over terror operative doesn’t necessarily mean that India accusing Pakistan of sponsoring terrorism, if it ever do so then why does Pakistan may not have agreed upon going for the investigation.

Positive side? you mean accusing and giving warning is a positive side.

Unless you choose to bring an whole new meaning of that accusation and warnings then I can’t help you.

I need not! she can understand well better then you and i can.

Her understanding still lacks a kind of the depth according to which she made her statement.

Well if she ever understand well better then me, then she may not have drawn her conclusion by saying that only Pakstani media provide balance point of view as compared to their Indian counterparts. You can read quoting of Logic note to her statement by providing news links which makes statements of Jana outrightly fall flat.