India not to criminalise marital rape

[SanjeevaniButi]

2) Please take a moment and think about the "social opprobrium" part. In India, who will face more social opprobrium, the man or the woman? Remember, many people do not even consider marital rape to be rape. Women raped by strangers or even relatives often do not report it, for fear of ostracization. Even their mothers discourage them from reporting it. So do you think that it would be easy for a woman to level a charge of rape against the man she is married to? And if she does, who will face more (undeserved) disgrace?

Irrelevant. Cowards die a thousand deaths. Man or Women.

A man who rapes his wife will not be viewed in the same league as other rapists by society. It is my hunch that he will be viewed sympathetically, if certain comments on this thread are anything to go by. It is the woman who will be called "bitch", "feminazi", "adarsh liberal", "NGO" etc, for having the nerve to assert her rights to her body.

Its YOUR HUNCH. Again Irrelevant.

Heck, until recently, and maybe even today, rapists (the non husband variety) faced far less social stigma than the rape victims themselves. I can assure you, it will not be the husband who will have to deal with social stigma.

Maybe, may be not. Either way the person who do not honour the conjugal rights in the marriage contract needs to suffer more social stigma for being a untrustworthy person.

In short, here is my proposal: The wife should have the right to file a case against the husband for rape. The burden of proof will be on her to prove it. (As it is always the case, for the prosecution.) The husband should not be jailed or penalized until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. (As it always is, for the defence.) Both parties should be given a fair hearing, undergo the due process of law, and have access to free legal aid, or paid one if they so choose. (As it is for anybody.)

I'd like to know if anybody disagrees on this proposal. That is all that all those "bitches", "feminazis" etc are asking for.

Rubbish. Since marriage constitutes consent and the option for divorce is available for both parties, sex within marriage cannot be subject to law that seeks a secondary consent. That makes the whole institution of marriage irrelevant. Then we are well on the way to have only live in relationships and teenage pregnancy outside wedlock like in the US and Europe.

 

[ayesha.a]

Nor does it give women right to file false cases on their husbands. Whats with women outright ignoring or bypassing the issue ? If you want us to understand then at least try to understand other side as well.

Nobody is ignoring or bypassing this issue. I have said repeatedly in all my posts, and at length in my previous post, that the defendant has to be treated as innocent until proven guilty. And anybody who files false charges ought to be penalized, same as any other law. Nobody is saying that women have a right to file false chareges, except the phantoms in your imagination.

To you and others who are making this a women v/s men issue - grow up. Please get rid of this juvenile, middle school mentality of "girls are good, boys are bad" or vice versa. I've seen little girls chanting "girls rule, boys drool!" and the boys chanting the converse, and watched it in amusement. But that mentality in people above the age of ten is not amusing.

And we too know which religion is a cult instead and promote rapes and violence against women

If you are as secular as your id suggests, please don't drag religion into this. No husband, hindu or muslim or something else, should have the right to rape their wife. By bringing religions into this, you are simply providing fodder for others to do the same, and instead of this important issue, what gets discussed is the sacking of the Somnath temple or other hindu-muslim issues.

I know I should say this to the hindu brigade as well, but that would only give them ammunition for ad hominem or strawman arguments against me, since I'm not hindu myself.

This issue has nothing to do with religion or nationality.

@ayesha.a do give your opinion about my post ( India not to criminalise marital rape | Page 10 ).

I agree with the facts you have given there, but I have to politely ignore the capitalism v/s socialism BS. Just as I told another person above, this issue has nohing to do with macroeconomic policies, any more than it has to do with religions. Economic conditions of the victim does play a part, but capitalism, free markets etc are another big irrelevancy that is best eschewed here.

 

[Nicky G]

Heck, until recently, and maybe even today, rapists (the non husband variety) faced far less social stigma than the rape victims themselves. I can assure you, it will not be the husband who will have to deal with social stigma.

Silly, if you consider that a man accused of rape by his wife would not face social stigma, particularly in the educated middle, upper-middle classes that I presume most people here are likely to belong to.

Are you ignorant to the simple fact that a man's professional life is likely to suffer serious damage under such charges? Heck, most men would submit merely as a result of a threat of such charges being levied.

In short, here is my proposal: The wife should have the right to file a case against the husband for rape. The burden of proof will be on her to prove it. (As it is always the case, for the prosecution.) The husband should not be jailed or penalized until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. (As it always is, for the defence.) Both parties should be given a fair hearing, undergo the due process of law, and have access to free legal aid, or paid one if they so choose. (As it is for anybody.)

Kindly establish how one goes about proving a rape in such a scenario. Unless there are objective, reasonable methods of establishing such 'crimes', such a law would be immature.

 

[ayesha.a]

Silly, if you consider that a man accused of rape by his wife would not face social stigma, particularly in the educated middle, upper-middle classes that I presume most people here are likely to belong to.

Are you ignorant to the simple fact that a man's professional life is likely to suffer serious damage under such charges? Heck, most men would submit merely as a result of a threat of such charges being levied.

Even for non-marital rape, the woman faces more stigma than the men, and have to fear familial and social ostracization, loss of marriage prospects, etc. For marital rape, the stigma can only be even more tilted in favour of the husband. Granted, I have no way to prove that - take it as my opinion.

Kindly establish how one goes about proving a rape in such a scenario. Unless there are objective, reasonable methods of establishing such 'crimes', such a law would be immature.

We could learn a thing or two from other places that have the law in place, and where a few succesful convictions have ensued. That is how the legal system improves itself over time - by observing and learning and setting precedents. There are many other crimes that are difficult to prove - eve teasing, groping, fondling, harassing etc, in the absence of witnesses, to take one example. Psycho-sexual abuse by a family member, not amounting to rape. And many other crimes that are unrelated to sexual issues. And yet, all those are punishable offences, no matter how hard it is to prove.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

if there is anything else left to debate on the subject then please continue without making snide remarks both over and covert towards faith and religion. I have for Now only deleted comments but you might receive warnings immediately if you continue.

 

[Nicky G]

Even for non-marital rape, the woman faces more stigma than the men, and have to fear familial and social ostracization, loss of marriage prospects, etc. For marital rape, the stigma can only be even more tilted in favour of the husband. Granted, I have no way to prove that - take it as my opinion.

The point I replied to was:

I can assure you, it will not be the husband who will have to deal with social stigma.

Its insane and terribly one sided to argue that men face no stigma. You cannot make such arguments and not expected to be called out on it.

I have no interest in playing victim, thus, see no reason to argue who's the greater victim. I'd leave that to those who rely on such arguments.

We could learn a thing or two from other places that have the law in place, and where a few succesful convictions have ensued. That is how the legal system improves itself over time - by observing and learning and setting precedents. There are many other crimes that are difficult to prove - eve teasing, groping, fondling, harassing etc, in the absence of witnesses, to take one example. Psycho-sexual abuse by a family member, not amounting to rape. And many other crimes that are unrelated to sexual issues. And yet, all those are punishable offences, no matter how hard it is to prove.

That's generic. Give me concrete steps.

How can you establish rape when one day the woman has intercourse willingly and another day says it was forced?

Unless there are obvious signs of struggle or physical force, there is no way to establish apart from one person's word over another. Even force is not a guarantee since some people enjoy force.

The other crimes you mention are not comparable since no woman is going to be willingly groped one day and complain on another day.

Please note, I am not trying to be glib, these are serious questions when you wish to destroy a man's life on the word of a woman or vice-versa, I hope you are for a law in a reverse situation.

 

[SanjeevaniButi]

Even for non-marital rape, the woman faces more stigma than the men, and have to fear familial and social ostracization, loss of marriage prospects, etc. For marital rape, the stigma can only be even more tilted in favour of the husband. Granted, I have no way to prove that - take it as my opinion.

You cannot correct social imbalance by designing laws that penalize men for being men.

You correct it by providing equal opportunity that brings parity.

We could learn a thing or two from other places that have the law in place, and where a few succesful convictions have ensued. That is how the legal system improves itself over time - by observing and learning and setting precedents. There are many other crimes that are difficult to prove - eve teasing, groping, fondling, harassing etc, in the absence of witnesses, to take one example. Psycho-sexual abuse by a family member, not amounting to rape. And many other crimes that are unrelated to sexual issues. And yet, all those are punishable offences, no matter how hard it is to prove.

WRONG.

If we start taking lessons about marriages from places, societies and nations that have destroyed the institution of marriage and has more Live-in relationships than marriage, then we are going to destory our culture and our own reverence for the institution of marriage.

Blindly aping the west is only sure way to destroy your society and community.

 

[Star Wars]

Nobody is ignoring or bypassing this issue. I have said repeatedly in all my posts, and at length in my previous post, that the defendant has to be treated as innocent until proven guilty. And anybody who files false charges ought to be penalized, same as any other law.

No ? can you go to facebook or any social networking websites and see how many men support women's rights issue and vice versa ? you will get my answer. Maybe you do. But how many other women do ? They don't give a f**k as far as i have seen in social media.

Nobody is saying that women have a right to file false charges, except the phantoms in your imagination.

they don't say, they simply do it and then go on talking about Gender equality/ Empowerment

To you and others who are making this a women v/s men issue - grow up. Please get rid of this juvenile, middle school mentality of "girls are good, boys are bad" or vice versa. I've seen little girls chanting "girls rule, boys drool!" and the boys chanting the converse, and watched it in amusement. But that mentality in people above the age of ten is not amusing.
.

Learn to read before replying,Nobody is making this a men v/s women issue except women themselves who started the whole thing with gross generalizations ever since 2012 incident. If you want to educate anyone on maturity it should be your own feminist colleagues and their masters sitting in Washington.

 

[Koovie]

Yeah, we are the second highest populated country in the world. At that point of time in South Africa 30-40% of their population was infected. So they were talking in percentages when they said India is going to be the next one. Compared to India, US has more than a 1.3 million HIV infected. Now compare percentage to percentage and tell us what should the UN be talking about? Absolute numbers or the population estimates.

CDC - Statistics Overview - Statistics Center - HIV/AIDS

Also is the US not the highest authority and champion of human rights, wisdom, modernity, and healthcare? So what could be the reason behind the prevalence of disease in that country to such an extent?

Yeah, so whats the problem with the numbers? Thats my question... do you still doubt them?

Comparisons with SA or the USA are not the issue here.

 

[ayesha.a]

You cannot correct social imbalance by designing laws that penalize men for being men.

You correct it by providing equal opportunity that brings parity.

For the last time: Nobody wants to penalize men for being men. And BTW, being a man is not tantamount to being a rapist. You are the one denigrating men, with such idiotic statements.

By the way a law against marital rape is not to "correct social imbalance". It is to protect individual freedom and rights, just like the law against non-marital rape.

WRONG.

If we start taking lessons about marriages from places, societies and nations that have destroyed the institution of marriage and has more Live-in relationships than marriage, then we are going to destory our culture and our own reverence for the institution of marriage.

Blindly aping the west is only sure way to destroy your society and community.

I didn't say "blindly ape the west". In fact, I didn't even mention "the west". But yes, if "the west" has devised some workable methods for this legal process, there is no harm in learning from them. The Indian constitution itself has many concepts that are borrowed from the American constitution and ideals, but that does not mean that we "blindly aped" them. Jurisprudence almost always borrows from existing sources - the American constitution and British laws have some philosophies that can be traced back at least to the Magna Charta.

 

[anonymus]

Now to narrow it down a bit - why not make it a bailable offence? Or a "non jailable" offence for the duration of the trial? Don't put him in jail until and unless the case against him has been conclusively proved. In other words, the good old maxim of "innocent until proven guilty." (In fact that should apply to any undertrial, and anybody who is not a flight risk should not be jailed until the charges are proved.)

False rape charges are leveled by someone seeking vengeance or for favorable settlement in divorce cases.

Your solution here has a glaring flaw. All "criminal acts" are considered to be acts against state and state is prosecutor in every criminal case. This means that a woman could file a rape charge casually, and then stop giving a dime about it as that case becomes "state vs Accused", and accused has to spend considerable resources, of times, money, and energy to get his name cleared.

So do you think that it would be easy for a woman to level a charge of rape against the man she is married to? And if she does, who will face more (undeserved) disgrace?

Actually, it would be easier for a woman to level a false rape charge against the man she is married to, than a stranger.

The point where rape case is being filed in court is a point where marriage "should" have been over a long time . Accuser does not lose anything here by accusing her husband. The social fallout of this act would be much more limited. Here violation of "honour" is not involved as "supposed rapist" was her husband, and accuser would want all the elders of her husband family to go to jail too (Dowry cases would come handy here). What would be supposed "disgrace" that she would suffer from?

In short, here is my proposal: The wife should have the right to file a case against the husband for rape. The burden of proof will be on her to prove it. (As it is always the case, for the prosecution.) The husband should not be jailed or penalized until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. (As it always is, for the defence.) Both parties should be given a fair hearing, undergo the due process of law, and have access to free legal aid, or paid one if they so choose. (As it is for anybody.)

Again law does not work like this.

All Criminal cases are cases against state. After filing, accuser could simply bail out of that case.

On top of it (as has been asserted repeatedly by me) , there is zero chances that a marital rape could be proved or disproved, unless one believe that "women never lies". This is a law which has "fraud" and "misuse" written over it. Rape is one of only three crimes in India where burden of proof lies on accused (SC/ST act , and Dowry act are others).

Even in jurisdictions where marital rape has been declared a crime, I could not find a single case of conviction in case where separation has not been in picture.

 

[ayesha.a]

No ? can you go to facebook or any social networking websites and see how many men support women's rights issue and vice versa ? you will get my answer. Maybe you do. But how many other women do ? They don't give a f**k as far as i have seen in social media.

Then respond to "those women", not to me.

 

[Koovie]

@anonymus

Looking forward to your reply.... I am waiting Mr. independent thinker (Who thinks I am a communist who spreads religious propaganda because I am from Kerala Biggest piece of irony I ve seen)

Prove it, and I will accept each and every claim of yours

 

[ayesha.a]

If you want to educate anyone on maturity it should be your own feminist colleagues and their masters sitting in Washington.

Riiight. Cheerio!

if there is anything else left to debate on the subject then please continue without making snide remarks both over and covert towards faith and religion. I have for Now only deleted comments but you might receive warnings immediately if you continue.

Thanks, and please do so with vigour - the issue is getting lost in the cacophony of religious barbs. Cull all those posts.

The point I replied to was:

Its insane and terribly one sided to argue that men face no stigma. You cannot make such arguments and not expected to be called out on it.

And that is what I replied to, stating that since even for non-marital rapes, women victims usually face more stigma than the perpetrators, it is only logical to assume that it will be even more so, in marital rapes. But then, to be very conceding in my stance, I even went so far as to say that since I cannot pove that, just take it as my opinion. I don't know how much furtherI need to yield.

That's generic. Give me concrete steps.

How can you establish rape when one day the woman has intercourse willingly and another day says it was forced?

Well then, having a law should not matter - since it can never be proved anyway. Right?

The other crimes you mention are not comparable since no woman is going to be willingly groped one day and complain on another day.

It is comparable, because what is being compared is provability. In the absence of eyewitness testimony, a grope is also unprovable, but is devastating to the psyche of the victim.

 

[jamahir]

I agree with the facts you have given there, but I have to politely ignore the capitalism v/s socialism BS.

you should learn to look at things at big-picture level... all those many posts of yours did not quite resolve what my single post did and you did not acknowledge.

thousands of years of progressive thought simplifying and evolving, 2017 bringing the 100th anniversary of the russian revolution and you, a college girl with no courage to drop out of college or job, you decide to indirectly call socialism as bullshit?? what's wrong with you??

and how are you being polite when you call something as bullshit?? do you think you are a comrade of mandela to be authoritative enough to call something like that as bullshit?? no, a comrade of mandela would not do what you did, which is why they struggled while you are a silly indian student in usa.

even i, much older than you, am humble to call others my teachers and my heroes.

i think you are so confident that you can build a society by yourself.

@Irfan Baloch this member ( ayesha ) is consistent in using snide and arrogant commenting... i only tagged her because she is female... is there no necessity for politeness and decency as requirement for members??