India - National Integration: The Way Forward

[Mahdi]

No to all parties,,Something new,,,,

 

[Jungle]

Jungle says: As for article 370, the will of the people of J&K demands that the article stays. The article should stay as long as the Kashmiris wants it to stay.

But, dear, the people of Kashmir does not want to be there in Indian Constitution from the very first day.

If this is not the case in your opinion then would you like to illustrate how the people of Kashmir will express their changed opinions?

I know i will be sparking off a controversy here, and this debate now mite take turn towards Kashmir, but here goes.....

I can partly give into your arguments that the people of Kashmir have mixed feelings about their association with India. This is not to say that all of them wants a secession. There are arguments on both side of the debate within the state. Having said that.... states which had some justifiable concerns on joining the Union of India after independence and thereafter, i.e states which thought that amalgamation into the union will have an impact on their cultural identity were given some special privileges. These include J&K, Nagaland, Mizoram , Manipur , Sikkim etc.All these states at some point had mixed feelings about their place in the Union. Their were uprisings, protests, insurgencies... but these were overcome by mutual discussions within the ambit of the constitution. India being a highly diverse country faces such problems every now and then.... Punjab being an excellent examples. Today almost no anti-India activity takes place over there. My point is problems such as Kashmir have constitutional channels to be resolved. The govt. knows there is a problem, and it would be solved peacefully in due course.

To argue on ur point that Kashmiris do not want to be governed by the Indian constitution is part true, part Pakistani propaganda. Don't take it otherwise....Hence it is governed by the Article 370 besides the Indira-Sheikh Accord of 1974. Special privilages to the state are given under this agreement.

1974 Indira?Sheikh accord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[indushek]

I strongly believe that our indian brothers would intelligent enough and educated enough to know that it was not Muslims but the Hindu leadership ( not the common hindus, who are suffering in the hands of ills like bjp, congress, VHP, RSS etc) who are primarily responsible of the partition. Mr. Jinnah was considered as symbol of unity between Muslims and Hindus. Then, was forced to give the 14 points and Two Nation Theory and the exprecience Muslims gained during Congress rule in 1937 is a black spot on the face of Hindu leadership of that time.

We in Pakistan, believe that the same mantality among Indian leaders, mainly constituted from within Brahman Hindu group is the main cause of all sufferings of Indian people.

Therefore, we recommend you to get rid of that.

What the hell are you talking about man , I am a Brahmin and am proud of it. What do you mean by saying that

"We in Pakistan, believe that the same mantality among Indian leaders, mainly constituted from within Brahman Hindu group is the main cause of all sufferings of Indian people."

Do u even know how many Brahmin leaders are present in India?? not even handful from all the states. Do u think Brahmins are something evil?? Many of my caste have worked for this countrie's well being as others too. Don't make such comments with half knowledge mister.

Mr. Atal Bihari Vajpayee was a Brahmin too and he is a Brhamchari (Celibate) who dedicated his life for social service.

 

[Jungle]

I strongly believe that our indian brothers would intelligent enough and educated enough to know that it was not Muslims but the Hindu leadership ( not the common hindus, who are suffering in the hands of ills like bjp, congress, VHP, RSS etc) who are primarily responsible of the partition. Mr. Jinnah was considered as symbol of unity between Muslims and Hindus. Then, was forced to give the 14 points and Two Nation Theory and the exprecience Muslims gained during Congress rule in 1937 is a black spot on the face of Hindu leadership of that time.

We in Pakistan, believe that the same mantality among Indian leaders, mainly constituted from within Brahman Hindu group is the main cause of all sufferings of Indian people.

Therefore, we recommend you to get rid of that.

Bhai,
By attacking religion and blaming Brahman Hindus for the partition tantamount to an invitation for slander from the Indian members.
Anyway, i'll try answering your questions.
There is always 2 faces to a coin. Jinnah had proposed that Muslims should be given a reservation in proportion to their population because they were the more vulnerable section in the society. This was about 30% reservation in administration, legislature and and government services. He also proposed that a bill would have to be rejected in the parliament if 2/3rd muslims oppose it on religious grounds. Weather these were justifiable demands are open to an argument. Some members of congress argued that why should Muslims be offered these privileges in provinces where they are in majority. ( provinces that now make present Pakistan and Bangladesh ) Since in these provinces, it were the Hindus who were more vulnerable. I wouldn't argue weather this argument was rite or wrong. I'll leave it for you to form an opinion.

I agree that for much of his life Mr. Jinnah was an icon of Hindu-Muslim Unity and a national figure on an equal footing with Nehru and Gandhi. He was popular among both Hindus and Muslims for his secular credentials. But what i find hard to answer is , why did he continue to demand a secession when Gandhi offered him a proposal conceding to his demands 25 years later. Gandhi agreed that he will give into his demands of reservations and legislative procedures put forth by him 25 years before. But, Mr. Jinnah said that now he would only settle for Independence. He started putting forth demands like 50% seats in the parliament for Muslims!!! It was obvious he had made up his mind about independence and was making such demands so that a consensus could not be achieved.

Hence, i would say that we all are responsible for partition, Congress for rejecting to his demands wen an agreement could have been reached and Mr. Jinnah for rejecting the same 25 years later.

I wouldn't want to answer on the religiously sensitive part of ur question. Hope you can understand

 

[indushek]

In my opinion Congress the first evil plaguing this country. They have ruled this country for almost 50 years and what have they done, quite a bit i think on

Corruption: 10/10

Majority/Minority Division aka Divisive Politics: 10/10

Terrorism: 10/10 i.e in nurturing and providing shelter for it

Naxalism: 10/10 again because no other party could lay claim to it

Most of the landlords or oppressors of common people were from this party only both as leaders or party cadres.

The funniest thing is that Congress claims that it had started the economic reform (somethig like a personal achievement) but don't know how many of us have the knowledge that it did so only on the insistence of World Bank and IMF.
If not we would have continued with LICENSE RAJ (filling the coffers of Congress Party) and our country would have been fucked up even more by these sick bastards.

And the final question of Gandhi Dynasty

Some one i think its Mr.Jungle who said that even though given on a platter he refused the throne. Seriously man are u in your mind?? Who the **** is this Rahul Gandhi to whom it has to be offered on a platter ha, what has his family done to this country rather than fill up their Swiss bank accounts. The only reason he has not yet taken the so called "throne" is to complete his apprenticeship and to show the public that it was not dynastic politics but hard party work is what earned him his "throne".

He himself has told openly that only and only because he is from Gandhi family that he got in to Politics so easily.

 

[AbuSalam]

it hurts to read things like Brahmins are very cruel & violent....as a muslim and living in an area full of high caste hindus..i've never came across a single brahmin whoz aggressive & violent..they are veggies and I've seen them even avoiding roads that have butcheries in which you find meat of cows & goats hung..they considering killing a sin, eating non-veg..they are most peace loving..if these aren't the case, you won't find lots of muslims in India, they've been converted forcefully

 

[KS]

Here we meet again.

The Congress is not secular. Shamelessly pandering to extremist minority organizations is anything but secular. The Congress's problem is that they believe they have been given the god given right to rule India, that is why they pander to these organizations because they mistakenly believe it will strengthen their minority base.

Agree on this one

Having said that, the BJP is a fascist organization that has no place in any civilized nation. In the BJP we have a party, whose founding ideologue, a certain coward called "Veer" Savarkar, openly idolized Mussolini, based his khaki based RSS morons on Mussolini's goons, openly supported the butcher of Muslims.

Substantiate ur argument with facts ..not emotions...

For every one fascist action of BJP the Congress has hundreds on its hands.
But the fact the Congress panders to the minority rather than the majority makes u all leftists go hunk-dory on them and vilify the BJP.

Wen in an nation a leftist,centrist party are perfectly acceptable I dont see why in the holy world a rightist party alone is not acceptable.

A party, many of whose leaders have risen the ranks on the blood of minorities - Advani, Uma Bharati, MM Joshi with their rath yatra in the 80s which had the slogan "Ek Dhakha Aur Do, Babri Masjid Tod Do", Narendra Modi with his overseeing the slaughter of minorities in Gujarat. etc etc.

Minority,minority,minority....do the majorities have a voice in this country with 80% majority...?
Do u think Congress hands is blood stain free..

Are the 4000 Sikhs killed in 84 not minorities..?

This is also a party whose lunatic religious fringe, also known as the Sangh Parivar - which includes such brilliant organizations like the Bajrang Dal, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad - do not believe in other people having opinions and like to beat up anyone who thinks otherwise. Their extra curricular activities include bombing a mosque here, trying to incite a riot there. All in the name of "defending the Hindu faith"

Dont worry for every one VHP,Bajrang Dal we have hundreds of "Secular" MIM (whose leader makes it a point to visit convicted terrorists home always) , a PDP ( whose leader and party was accused of Coimbatore bombings) ...so till the day these parties are considered secular VHP,RSS will always remain secular.

A party whose student wing - ABVP - consists of nothing more than criminals (In fairness, the Congress student wing also consists of criminals).

But in all probability DYFI is the biggest organised criminal organistion i India.Going berseck at every given opportunity and smashing public property.

A party who goes on and on about "Muslim" terrorists, but when these terrorists are of the Hindu variety, they suddenly become victims who are acting in self defence. Whose leaders openly ask for the release of people accused of killing Indians in bombings.

Was expecting this.....First Abhinav Bharat is in no way attached to BJP.
Has anyone proved it to the contrary - NO

Secondly even if they have contacts has any of Abhinav Bharat's or sadhvi Pragya's role been established beyond doubt in any Indian court of Law - again a big NO.

The modus operandi is this....first the Congress led Govt asks ATS to arrest some creating a big hype then it silently lets them off after failing to prove the charges against them.

It will a great day for humanity when the RSS is banned again, when all BJP leaders responsible for killing minorities are arrested and the BJP as a party ceases to exist.

Yeah yeah..but that will not happen before the day SP,RJD,Left who shamelessly pander to the Muslim votes are banned,Congress leaders are arrested for killing Sikhs enmasse and in various other riots and All the above parties cease to exist.

I as one belonging to the majority community need my voice to be heard and I dont think Congress or the Left will ever do it.
So BJP stays.

 

[Jungle]

[/QUOTE]

Some one i think its Mr.Jungle who said that even though given on a platter he refused the throne. Seriously man are u in your mind?? Who the **** is this Rahul Gandhi to whom it has to be offered on a platter ha, what has his family done to this country rather than fill up their Swiss bank accounts. The only reason he has not yet taken the so called "throne" is to complete his apprenticeship and to show the public that it was not dynastic politics but hard party work is what earned him his "throne".

He himself has told openly that only and only because he is from Gandhi family that he got in to Politics so easily.[/QUOTE]


I didn't say this...must be someone else.
But are you saying that people like Nehru hasn't done anything for country. Or that Vajpayee eclipses Nehru are Indira Gandhi in stature ( although i am not a big fan of Indira Gandhi). C'mon , at least give them credit for wat they deserve other than saying that the Gandhi family hasn't done nothing at all.

 

[keyboard]

I didn't say this...must be someone else.
But are you saying that people like Nehru hasn't done anything for country. Or that Vajpayee eclipses Nehru are Indira Gandhi in stature ( although i am not a big fan of Indira Gandhi). C'mon , at least give them credit for wat they deserve other than saying that the Gandhi family hasn't done nothing at all.

Gandhi family is responsible for Indian backwardness

1: sikh riots
2: emergency
3: Tibet issue (Nehru responsible for 1961 )

and many more

 

[Rocketsingh]

Gandhi family is responsible for Indian backwardness

1: sikh riots
2: emergency
3: Tibet issue (Nehru responsible for 1961 )

and many more

and also bhopal gas tragedy case

 

[keyboard]

and also bhopal gas tragedy case

Not directly but to release Anderson

Shame on you Rajiv Gandhi

 

[KS]

I didn't say this...must be someone else.
But are you saying that people like Nehru hasn't done anything for country. Or that Vajpayee eclipses Nehru are Indira Gandhi in stature ( although i am not a big fan of Indira Gandhi). C'mon , at least give them credit for wat they deserve other than saying that the Gandhi family hasn't done nothing at all.

Credit is deserved by only Jawaharlal Nehru or to a lesser amount Indira gandhi.

But this gentleman Rahul cant be enjoying for the credit that is not due on him.

 

[Kinetic]

Gandhi family is responsible for Indian backwardness

1: sikh riots
2: emergency
3: Tibet issue (Nehru responsible for 1961 )

and many more

You forgot the biggest and the most important one!!! After independence their worthless and failed ideas of building and administrating the country brought India to current situation, otherwise India should be a developed country by now. We had and have everything.

 

[Nemesis]

Substantiate ur argument with facts ..not emotions.

Facts did you say? Okay then -

Fact number 1 - In the BJP we have a party, whose founding ideologue, a certain coward called "Veer" Savarkar, openly idolized Mussolini, based his khaki based RSS morons on Mussolini's goons, openly supported the butcher of Muslims, etc.

But the fact the Congress panders to the minority rather than the majority makes u all leftists go hunk-dory on them and vilify the BJP.

Pandering to the minorities? Minorities in India have the lowest social indicators. Fact number 2. If pandering to them results in their social and economic improvement then i'm all for it.

I've already spoken about the Congress.

Wen in an nation a leftist,centrist party are perfectly acceptable I dont see why in the holy world a rightist party alone is not acceptable.

A conservative party is acceptable. A fascist party is not. You do know that Conservative politics has a lot do with economics and less to do with religious fundamentalism? Fact number 3.

Minority,minority,minority....do the majorities have a voice in this country with 80% majority...?

The thing about being the majority, you'll have a say no matter what. That's why they call it a majority. Fact 4.

Do u think Congress hands is blood stain free..

Are the 4000 Sikhs killed in 84 not minorities..?

Point being what? The BJP's actions are justified because the Congress has also indulged in it? Is that really your reasoning? Retarded.

Dont worry for every one VHP,Bajrang Dal we have hundreds of "Secular" MIM (whose leader makes it a point to visit convicted terrorists home always) , a PDP ( whose leader and party was accused of Coimbatore bombings) ...so till the day these parties are considered secular VHP,RSS will always remain secular.

Look up the word Secular in the dictionary.

But in all probability DYFI is the biggest organised criminal organistion i India.Going berseck at every given opportunity and smashing public property.

All student organizations in India have goons. But nothing compares to the ABVP. Members of the ABVP were responsible for the murder of a Professor, yet the ABVP did not have the moral decency to disassociate them from the organization. Fact number 5.

First Abhinav Bharat is in no way attached to BJP.
Has anyone proved it to the contrary

Sadhvi Pragya was once a member of the ABVP. Fact number 6.

Secondly even if they have contacts has any of Abhinav Bharat's or sadhvi Pragya's role been established beyond doubt in any Indian court of Law - again a big NO.

Innocent until proven guilty huh? So why don't LK Advani and Rajnath Singh defend Muslims accused of terrorist activities in the same way? Hindus can't be terrorists?

The modus operandi is this....first the Congress led Govt asks ATS to arrest some creating a big hype then it silently lets them off after failing to prove the charges against them.

Amusing. This is the same ATS that gives us evidence of the involvement of non Hindu terrorist organizations, but you believe them then?

Yeah yeah..but that will not happen before the day SP,RJD,Left who shamelessly pander to the Muslim votes are banned,

Pandering to Muslim votes is not a banned offence. Killing Muslims on the other hand is. Fact number 7.

Congress leaders are arrested for killing Sikhs enmasse and in various other riots and All the above parties cease to exist

Congress leaders responsible for the Sikh riots need to be arrested. But why only them, those leftist leaders responsible for killing workers in Singur and Nandigram also need to be arrested.

I as one belonging to the majority community need my voice to be heard and I dont think Congress or the Left will ever do it.

You have an inferiority complex. Feeling threatened, despite being part of an overwhelming majority is a classic symptom. Fact number 8.

So BJP stays.

The thing about Fascist organizations is that it feeds on unemployment, poverty and illiteracy. This provides the fuel for ignorance and hatred. The more India develops, the more people get jobs, the more people get an education, the more people are uplifted from poverty, the less the chances are that the RSS fascist agenda will succeed. Facts 9, 10 and 11.

So no, the BJP won't survive in its current avatar for long. If it wants to survive, it needs to change. Fact 12.

These are 12 facts for you. Chew on them. and try to come up with better arguments if you want to debate with me.

 

[Jungle]

^^^^^
Very well said. I never get the concept on how a majority can be threatened and needs a party to look after its interest. I would really like to know the value system of all BJP lovers here. What interests of the majority is the BJP looking after? To put it better, wat interests of Hindus are being threatened by the minorities?