India might place orders for Two Advance Kilo submarines with Russia

[Hindustani78]

There is no point of buying ABM system of India. Looking at its size, it should be developed on subsystem basis. Like Survellance Radar, control center, Early warning system should have to developed in India. and if AAD or PDV have shortfalls , than other Missile should be procured, and linked with Indian Network.

No body Knows what bug US can plug inside indian comand and control center

Here its on the India's NSA , Defense Ministry , Military Command and Indian military planners to decide by keeping International situation in mind.

 

[Vyom]

GSAT6 is being deployed.

GSAT-6 satellite provides communication through five spot beams in S-band and a national beam in C-band for strategic users.

Five of GSAT-6 predecessors were launched by GSLV during 2001, 2003, 2004, 2007 and 2014 respectively.

sorry bhai, galti ho gayi, navigation satellites and military target tracking sat-coms are the same?? I never knew.

 

[Hindustani78]

sorry bhai, galti ho gayi, navigation satellites and military target tracking sat-coms are the same?? I never knew.

When it comes to National security then Indian NSA wont take any chances.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA dude if this is true any news about the scorpene follow on numbers??? are they going to reduce the number from 4 to 2 and gor for 2 kilo's or this is going to be a separate deal??

scorpenes follow up 3-4 is seperate. It wont get effected by New kilo or any other order.. The modular construction benefit and investment of time and money by Mazgaon docks means minimum 10 scorpenes for sure.. i wont b surprised if later towards the end of the program we order more possibly too from the same line..

 

[Vyom]

It funny no matter how many times the PKS got things wrong, you guys still go and read each and every fictional comments. What for instant gratification ?

Saying we will buy THAAD is pure BS for common sense. Did you even consider history of geopolitics in this subcontinent ?
Why do we have a BMD program in the first place ? Why do we buy a overpriced system with so many restriction?
Does this geo political threat scenario came overnight ? why didn't we sign these agreements earlier ?
It is not about some agreements its about independent foreign policy we follow and unlike buying some transport planes or helicopters buying THAAD means we officially becoming a pawn of USA. It that so hard to deduce ?

We are never going to buy THAAD, period. S400 is not a replacement for BMD.
It is for Very Long Range SAM requirement of airforce (with only a limited strategic implications).

https://twitter.com/x/status/653076860356530176

https://twitter.com/x/status/653078549780299776

I disagree with PKS says in most part, Independent foreign policy will be there for the most of it but one day or the other India will have to choose a camp, much like France (which though being a NATO signatory is not a pawn, follows independent foreign policy). Saurav, I believe still has some way to travel, unless he is unwilling to relearn.

our BMD program is there and is effective against slow moving missiles and not against fast moving solid fueled missiles. and to reach the maturity level of the THAAD programme it will take at-least a Decade or more, I'll say may be two, the catch we don't have the luxury of time, or that of R&D spending, or that of credible military planning.

The reaction time that we get when under attack, is minuscule and to detect a missile launch calculate trajectory and fire back at it, will be spit second action. we need permanent ASEA radar stations that monitor all possible airspaces from which threats can originate, (this includes IOR) and yes this is not mere city centric shields. its unwise to even compare THAAD system with BMD.

Its not about becoming a Pawn, it about converging Interests, and if you still don't get the drift of the geo-politics, and affirm to the regional-politics, its where we are failing unable to position ourselves accordingly.
.
The thing is we cant be choosers, and we can always negotiate a position. The in Geo politics there always has been a trade off, on our requirements vs theirs. Economics and Financial manipulations are also becoming tools of coercion. One cannot delink national security with Economic and financial interests.
.
Things the way they are going the *independent foreign policy* is a myth, NAM is dead. Either we join them or be against hem that's how the world is getting divided.

 

[[Bregs]]

S400 may be for evaluation purposes. "If" I am reading the end game correctly, expect India Signing BECA. LSA and CISMOA. Culminating into deployment of THAAD.

as far as i know this system is being specifically acquired to safe guards vital installations in Mumbai and New Delhi

 

[Vyom]

as far as i know this system is being specifically acquired to safe guards vital installations in Mumbai and New Delhi

We need better coverage and shield. New Delhi and Mumbai are just two centers, there much more strategic centers
.

 

[[Bregs]]

We need better coverage and shield. New Delhi and Mumbai are just two centers, there much more strategic centers
.

Those places will be covered by the air defense systems India her self is producing

 

[$@rJen]

scorpenes follow up 3-4 is seperate. It wont get effected by New kilo or any other order.. The modular construction benefit and investment of time and money by Mazgaon docks means minimum 10 scorpenes for sure.. i wont b surprised if later towards the end of the program we order more possibly too from the same line..

that's a good news.... finally IN's under water fleet is strengthening damn good... anyhow what will be the time line for the induction??

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

2 upgraded kilos right now would do us more good than 2 more talwars.A good move.
I don't understand the purpose of only 150 BMP-2Ks though.What is that small number going to accomplish?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

2 upgraded kilos right now would do us more good than 2 more talwars.A good move.
I don't understand the purpose of only 150 BMP-2Ks though.What is that small number going to accomplish?

Yes

On BMPs, I think it serves two purposes.
1.Gives India to show that it still has relations with Russia in case, big deals don't work out and gives Russians some much needed money.

2. It will be produced in OFB India, so more jobs and local manufacturing ,in addition to boosting the OFB.

 

[Agent_47]

I disagree with PKS says in most part, Independent foreign policy will be there for the most of it but one day or the other India will have to choose a camp, much like France (which though being a NATO signatory is not a pawn, follows independent foreign policy).

Yeah, we are like France who canceled a billion dollar contact and put their credibility in line as a defence supplier and us who the only country who publicly supported the Russians.

our BMD program is there and is effective against slow moving missiles and not against fast moving solid fueled missiles. and to reach the maturity level of the THAAD programme it will take at-least a Decade or more, I'll say may be two, the catch we don't have the luxury of time, or that of R&D spending, or that of credible military planning.

The reaction time that we get when under attack, is minuscule and to detect a missile launch calculate trajectory and fire back at it, will be spit second action. we need permanent ASEA radar stations that monitor all possible airspaces from which threats can originate, (this includes IOR) and yes this is not mere city centric shields. its unwise to even compare THAAD system with BMD.

As i asked earlier, is this a new scenario ?
How do you conclude we can't make one in reasonable time ? considering we already completed phase 1.
Don't we already have Isreal co developed long range AESA ? Don't we already make credible military satellite ?

Why sudden uncle SAM love ? Are you saying we should suddenly abandon 6 decades of foreign policy in the time when we are getting prosperous and looking to become top 3 in a decade ?

Its not about becoming a Pawn, it about converging Interests, and if you still don't get the drift of the geo-politics, and affirm to the regional-politics, its where we are failing unable to position ourselves accordingly.

We have always converging interest with US so does Pakistan. You write like geopolitics is some Christopher Jonathan, it is simple as common sense.

Try to learn about geo politics without affect of western softpower on you! .I believe you has some way to travel.
Henry Kissingers notes on US foreign policy is a good start.

 

[Hindustani78]

We need better coverage and shield. New Delhi and Mumbai are just two centers, there much more strategic centers
.

I think even in Visakhapatnam Missile shield will be placed.

 

[zebra7]

I disagree with PKS says in most part, Independent foreign policy will be there for the most of it but one day or the other India will have to choose a camp, much like France (which though being a NATO signatory is not a pawn, follows independent foreign policy). Saurav, I believe still has some way to travel, unless he is unwilling to relearn.

our BMD program is there and is effective against slow moving missiles and not against fast moving solid fueled missiles. and to reach the maturity level of the THAAD programme it will take at-least a Decade or more, I'll say may be two, the catch we don't have the luxury of time, or that of R&D spending, or that of credible military planning.

The reaction time that we get when under attack, is minuscule and to detect a missile launch calculate trajectory and fire back at it, will be spit second action. we need permanent ASEA radar stations that monitor all possible airspaces from which threats can originate, (this includes IOR) and yes this is not mere city centric shields. its unwise to even compare THAAD system with BMD.

Its not about becoming a Pawn, it about converging Interests, and if you still don't get the drift of the geo-politics, and affirm to the regional-politics, its where we are failing unable to position ourselves accordingly.
.
The thing is we cant be choosers, and we can always negotiate a position. The in Geo politics there always has been a trade off, on our requirements vs theirs. Economics and Financial manipulations are also becoming tools of coercion. One cannot delink national security with Economic and financial interests.
.
Things the way they are going the *independent foreign policy* is a myth, NAM is dead. Either we join them or be against hem that's how the world is getting divided.

Vyom Sir few questions

1. When you talk of THAAD freely here, are you sure THAAD is actually exportable to any country. THAAD is the system comprises of the network of Early warning system including Ground based long range BME, AWAAC, Satellite survellance, UAV survellance etc etc + Missiles with diffent tier and its firecontrol radars + Control system something line C4I. So when you are purchasing THAAD does USA is going to give you all access to information from its spy and survellance satellites and its network OR PAC -3 missile system .

2. So whatever you think or discuss, India have to develop his ABM of its own, though subsytems or technology could be bought.

3. PKS is not always correct, but what I like is he thinks Logically.

Regards Baki Lage Raho !!!

Yes

On BMPs, I think it serves two purposes.
1.Gives India to show that it still has relations with Russia in case, big deals don't work out and gives Russians some much needed money.

2. It will be produced in OFB India, so more jobs and local manufacturing ,in addition to boosting the OFB.

Why not arjun based BMP. And I really don't like the design of BMP. Saw the documentory on the Afghanistan govt backed by Soviets and Taliban + fighters fight. In that One Mujahideen was explaining how easy is to kill BMP from the front with the rocket launcher. The shape of the front divet the rocket fired from front below its belly just bellow driver, making it more effective to neutralize it. Later they surround and kill the occupant.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Actually Till we have a dedicated 3-4 military satellite our space based detection system is practically nil. Second, we dont have a standy by system or a tie up if we encounter a situation when a hostile nation uses ASAT and takes them out...

Long Range Tracking Radar need is sureshot but we need them in different points as the vast terrain of India means an incoming hostile projectile or even a dedicated Long range missile (IRBM/ICBM Class) launched from multiple avenues (say NE Direction of India, NW or SE from SC Sea, much deeper from Indian Ocean or Deep from Eastern China Provinces Just for assumption) actually blanks and crashes the system if we consider only say selected few large strategic important places with high density populations.

Whther THAAD or S400 Triumf comes in the range with say 12 or more batteries gives a complete protective layer of 400 kms for such longer range missiles. Unfortunately our idea should be to place 4 more systems in the range of 150 kms and 250 kms and one in the range of 100-50kms and one last for less than 50 kms. For 150 Kms we can look at Barak 8 ER when it comes online later. For 250 Kms, we do require a more of domestic design to work and hence i consider AAD/PDV role in this zone if we can augment and modify it with newer technology. For less than 100 range to 50 range, Barak 8 will do and for less than 50 Km Akash SAMs will do (Note Barak 8 and Barak 8ER i am talking about Land based SAMs)

Actually the thing is Russian S400 Triumf if its purchased by India we do need to understand how Russia has put a web of long range Radars over multiple places.(russians have in service AESA long range surveillance VHF and L-band radars.) and use that as a model to design our own web... THAAD on the other hand is actually more of accepting India as a non Nato member with Status of key Nato nation (europen members like UK). technically its aimed at bringing India against China logic and USA getting permanent access to Indian sub continent. Its true that their tech is on par and at times superior to even Russians and especially bcz Pak Radar and tracking is more or less provided by USA only. (A sophisticated system which led to first dispute when OBL was hunted as why the whole radar tracking and coverage was "switched off" unofficially when the team came down for hunting and how when one bird was damaged the replacement bird much bigger and with inferior RCS measure escaped this tracking system if it was "switched on" like always). IF we want a very strong independent foreign policy role we may have to accept S400 triumf and be happy.. If we get congressional approvals and US designating us such a superior missile shield then we have to be honest and declare ourselves to be in US Bloc and US ally..

BTW a quick check
First of all S-400 can be compared to PAC-2 and THAAD {Theater High-Altitude Area Defense} PAC-3 is a much shorter range surface to air missile, 15 Km max. Patriot TMDhttp://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/patriot.htm On the other hand PAC-3 is a very accurate, hit to kill missile!!! PAC-3 is smaller than PAC-2, eight PAC-3 can fit in a truck instead of four PAC-2. However PAC-2 has a range of over 160Km, 100 miles. Unfortunately the S-400 the range of the big missile is 400Km and can hit ballistic missiles just like THAAD. THAAD TMD

Terminal High Altitude Area Defense
The Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) element provides the Ballistic Missile Defense System (BMDS) with a globally-transportable, rapidly-deployable capability to intercept and destroy ballistic missiles inside or outside the atmosphere during their final, or terminal, phase of flight.
Overview

• Land-based element capable of shooting down a ballistic missile both inside and just outside the atmosphere.
• Highly effective against the asymmetric ballistic missile threats.
• Uses hit-to-kill technology whereby kinetic energy destroys the incoming warhead.
• The high-altitude intercept mitigates effects of enemy weapons of mass destruction before they reach the ground.

The THAAD missile system is an easily transportable defensive weapon system to protect against hostile incoming threats such as tactical and theatre ballistic missiles at ranges of 200km and at altitudes up to 150km.

The THAAD system provides the upper tier of a "layered defensive shield" to protect high value strategic or tactical sites such as airfields or populations centers. The THAAD missile intercepts exo-atmospheric and endo-atmospheric threats. The sites would also be protected with lower and medium tier defensive shield systems such as the Patriot PAC-3 which intercepts hostile incoming missiles at lower altitudes.

PAC-3 as a pure point defense system for example has to placed right on a potential target, its cross-shot angle is limited to collision-course intercepts, (also because of the short range).

THAAD and PAC2 are a little better, but still have to be positioned very close to, and under a potential flight path in pretty close vicinity of a potential target. PAC-2/3/THAAD are terminal phase interceptors.but more for exo - atmospheric then endo..

There is a difference in the design methodologies of Russian BMD systems like S-400 and western BMDs like THAAD, Patriot and Arrow. Russian systems have a separate surveillance radar and the tracking-guidance radar, whereas in western BMDs both these functionalities are integrated into one radar unit for atleast the Patriot-3 and Arrow systems.

The advantage of separating the surveillance and tracking radar units as in S-400 is that the separation can be of many kilometers, thus resulting in a wide area of defence. This is in contrast with point defence like Israel's Patriot-3 and Arrow systems, as a consequence of integrated surveillance and tracking modes on one ground radar.

However, to solve this, the THAAD system instead of a dedicated surveillance radar uses a network of sensors ranging from AWACs, ship-based rardars and other ground radars. The network of AWACs etc. will communicate to a central operations centre, which in turn will simply designate the nearest missile launching unit to launch an interceptor at the target.

The disadvantage of such a system may be issues of interoperability between various ad-hoc and independent platforms with the BMD centre. Thus, the S-400 may be more robust and also has far fewer issues of interoperability, compared to that of THAAD.

S-400 uses 3 distinct kinds of interceptor missiles to cover its entire performance envelope. These include:

• The extremely long range (244 miles/400 kilometers) 40N6, which is similar in range to the U.S. THAAD and Standard SM-3 interceptors.
• The long-range 48N6DM, 48N6E3; engages targets in the range of 250km
• The short-range 9M96E and 9M96E2 (24/92 miles and 40/120 kilometers) which are roughly equivalent to the U.S. Patriot PAC-3 interceptor. These missiles are clustered in three-round packs that fit the TELs in place of one larger 40N6 or 48N6E3 interceptor.
• The new anti-ballistic missiles 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 supposedly add inert/kinetic anti-ballistic capability to the system. Also they are hypersonic in nature.

Thus S400 actually is a combination of THAAD, PAC2 and PAC3.... The S-400 interceptors are extremely maneuverable , and have maximum speeds around Mach 12, making their “no-escape” zone extremely large .Again, S-400 Triumf is universal anti-aircraft / anti-ballistic system, while the THAAD isdedicated 'anti-ballistic'. For example, S-400 with 9M96E / 9M96E2 missiles, able to hit effectively the cruise missiles at 5 - 10 metres altitude

BTW, as far as a missile system, the S 400 is not the best. It is close. The S400 is not hit to kill, it is a HUGE, fast, heavy 4000kg, long range, high altitude SAM, with a proximity fragmentation warhead.(except the new 77N6N1 kill vehicle) The U.S.A's PAC 2/3 or THAAD, is a hit to kill missile. So withinn 50m range of aircraft/Missile S400 will sure shot stop the hostile whereas the PAC2/3 and THAAD if it misses then next interception is suppose to take care of the incoming hostile. About mobility its best speed of movement is around 50-60kms per hour so a dedicated web of satellites can definitely pick it up and track it.

It may be noted that although the Indian BMD uses Israeli LRTR radars, it follows the Russian architecture exactly :- a surveillance radar detects an incoming threat first very early. After that, the launcher unit is assigned the target. The launcher unit's local tracking radar then guides the missile to the target. In the Indian BMD system, the individual radars scan particular sectors in the atmosphere. Whenever a target is detected, it is first classified as the target, predicts its impact point, and depending upon the predicted path assigns one of the optimum interceptor to engage it.