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India lost in Afghan endgame.

I have scanned the article, and I have found it to be really quite superficial.

Thing is that in early 70s right after loss of East Pakistan, Indians and Afghans had an understanding about carving Pakistan in two. Pakistanis took practical steps so that this plan could not be implemented. After Sardar Daud's overthrow, things went out of control and India has not been able to exercise similar influence in Kabul. It is their dream to have Afghanistan in their camp so that they would be able to press Pakistan.

Afghans are not that stupid. They may appear to do something to convey an impression, but actually do the opposite. Case in point is Afghan role during Pakistan-India wars. India would have loved for them to do something, even a bit of sabre-rattling. But instead what Afghans did was to send a reassuring message to GOP about their neutrality. This happened in 1965 for sure.
 
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I've always said they would. But people here and elsewhere always bring up the fact that the allied powers have overwhelming firepower and funds against a few rag tag militants. And then, there's also the talk of training up ANA and $2 billion dollar Indian investment.

But, at the end of the day, Indians joined alongside the Karzai government and it's American puppets (mind you, it had no other choice), and it became associated with the last decade+ of war.

There's little hope left for Indian interests in Afghanistan.
The 90's are returning and we will gain strategic depth in Afghanistan, and when I say strategic depth, it sounds alarm bells, but all I really mean is that we will have a friendly or a neutral government in Afghanistan and not one which will stab us in the back and try to pay proxy wars.

How would you like your steak done, India?

Bloody i suppose, says Pakistan.


Come 2014 and Indians will be history in Afghanistan. Simply put, India has no purpose in Afghanistan except to stab Pakistan. This Indians with development and bla bla is all bullshyt.
 
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India always has less leverage than pakistan and hence it was inevitable... but still there are some manuvres left.
 
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How would you like your steak done, India?

Bloody i suppose, says Pakistan.


Come 2014 and Indians will be history in Afghanistan. Simply put, India has no purpose in Afghanistan except to stab Pakistan. This Indians with development and bla bla is all bullshyt.


thats called "insanity"..Afghanistan is our key to the mid east and soviet breakaway countries..please,our road projects will not harm you much,other than the fact that it'll give access Afghanistan to Irani ports,thus will reduce dependence of Afghanistan on Pakistan..
 
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India lost in Afghan endgame

By Kanwal Sibal

Issue Courtesy: Mail Today | Date : 27 Aug , 2013

The situation in Afghanistan is full of uncertainties and the prospects of India’s neighbourhood becoming even more difficult for us are real. We have little control over the situation in Afghanistan, however popular we may be with its government and people. We have invested considerable political and financial capital in Afghanistan for protecting our longer term interests in the region, but adequate returns are not guaranteed.

Afghanistan has been a conflict zone for over three decades now. To our misfortune it became a cold war battleground between the Soviet Union and the US, with the result that both an extremist version of Islam and Pakistan became powerful actors in shaping developments there under the US lead. Until then, Pakistan was not a dominant factor in Afghanistan internally and externally. Later, as US attention moved towards Iraq, Pakistan saw an opportunity to control Afghanistan strategically by using Islamic fanaticism embodied by the Taliban as a tool.

Hare & Hounds

The deliberate Islamisation of Pakistan by Zia-ul-Haq prepared a favourable ground for the creation of the Taliban under Benazir Bhutto’s civilian government. The nurturing of extremist religious groups by the Pakistan military for terrorist attacks against India was another facet of the growing Islamization of Pakistan’s society and the practical use of these forces for political ends, as in Afghanistan’s case.

Religious fanatics in our region gained further force with Al Qaida’s entry on the back of the Taliban. These forces overplayed their hand in attacking the US on September 11, inviting an American military riposte that ousted the Taliban from power. That Osama Laden got refuge in Pakistan for many years in different places points to the existence of an effective network of Islamist cells in Pakistan, which raises concerns for the future. When, with Taliban’s ouster, US attention turned towards Iraq for the second time, Pakistan once again saw an opportunity to regain its lost ground in Afghanistan through the Taliban groups it continued sheltering on its territory.

With Taliban groups targeting NATO forces from safe-havens in Pakistan, US pressure on Pakistan to control these groups was inevitable. This exposed the inherent contradiction in Pakistan’s posture on religious extremism and terrorism, with the Pakistan state and society, at one level, nurturing these forces, while, at another level, acting against them under external constraint. This policy of running with the hare and hunting with the hound has exposed Pakistan to accusations of duplicity and double-faced policies by its western supporters, a discovery India made years earlier. But this awakening has not brought about any drastic change in the West’s handling either of Pakistan per se or its destabilizing ambitions in Afghanistan.

The Third Time

The irony from India’s point of view is that having fortified the virus of Islamism in the region and then having combated it at great human, financial and military cost, the US and the West are once again reaching out to the same forces, this time not to defeat a cold war rival but to cover up their own retreat with a veneer of semi-success. The accommodation of the Taliban in the mid-1990s was for immediate economic allurements, with no concern that such obscurantist forces would spread terror to the US. The US overlooked the problematic aspects of Pakistan’s conduct because of tepid India-US relations. Pakistan was a useful balancing factor.

Today India and the US have a strategic partnership. The US has a grand vision of linking Central Asia and South Asia through a new silk road, with energy projects like TAPI as a centre-piece. It seems to want to repeat its previous mis-reading of Taliban’s Islamic fanaticism by believing that its commitment to break links with Al Qaida would protect the US from future terrorist attacks. This will be the third time that the US will take Afghanistan off its radar screen, benefiting once again the Taliban with its religious ideology and Pakistan with its strategic ambitions while compromising India’s interests despite the so-called transformation of India-US ties.

In a hard place

India will be hard put to secure its interests in Afghanistan in the conditions under which the US intends to withdraw. The Afghan security forces may be able to prevent an outright Taliban military victory, but providing security all over the country against Taliban depredations would be outside their capacity, given their present ability to stage terrorist attacks even in highly protected areas such as Kabul. Sending more security personnel to protect our projects is not a solution.

Though we have a strategic partnership agreement with Afghanistan that provides also for arms support, even if we were to step up our training assistance considerably and provide some combat equipment, it would not substitute for the Afghan army’s lack of air support, heavy weaponry and intelligence capability. Pakistan is determined to neutralize India’s influence in Afghanistan, as the attack on our Jalalabad consulate indicates unfortunately. It is allergic to the idea of an India-friendly Afghan government. It finds it intolerable that we train Afghan military officers in India when their offers to provide such training are being rebuffed. Nawaz Sharif has begun voicing the charge that India is behind some disturbances in Pakistan.

We can help reduce the threats to Afghanistan’s internal stability in consultation with Iran, Russia and the Central Asian states. China cannot be relied upon because in any scenario it will be with Pakistan and leverage its influence with the Taliban to protect Chinese interests. Pakistan is central to China’s strategy to economically exploit Afghanistan and link it and neighbouring Central Asian states to its upgraded Karakoram highway connected to Gwadar. All in all, our stakes in Afghanistan are high but our means to protect them insufficient and uncertain.

India lost in Afghan endgame » Indian Defence Review

So now finally Indians have started to accept that Pakistan is supreme!

They should accept now that in this region its only Pakistan who is regional power.
 
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With due respect, the problem is not how much money India has spent in Afghanistan and how much money they are going to spend in future, the major concern is will it be sufficient? that is the question posed in last paragraph of the article posted. India will have to allow other stakeholders to play their role, as sustaining peace in Afghanistan is not one man's show, if it was US would have been able to do so decades ago.

Education & economy has to role to play but to some extent only, i fail to see how are you going to explain this simple fact to a villager who know nothing but fighting for the tribals. And good luck for holding seminars for warlords - Arab Kings & Afghan warlords / tribal leaders gives rat's bottom to such things........

I agree to what you say, but there is a weird Indian way of doing things... not just for afghans but in general, India doesn't invest a lot neither elsewhere nor for it's own people but has a way of generating immense goodwill when it wants to.... Trust me India doesn't spend enough on education but still most students do who take up studies seriously generally find enough resources and a gracious to the state about it, Indians setteled abroad can complain about their upbringing but will always be thankful to the educational system , same goes for foriegn policy, India wont solve afghan health care, but a couple of hospitals and bunch of Indian doctors sow the seed of goodwil and that goes a long way... india building a road is going to help afghan transportation maybe by 0.1 % but the goodwill associated with that is immense.

Are there roadblocks for India, absolutely yes, more than we can list here... is India's end in afghanistan looming ahead , I seriously doubt so. Beating India in diplomatic game is something everyone has failed at, we are friends with Ksa iran and israel all at the same time. we have good military relations with US europe and Russia, India supports Palestine and is the largest importer of arms from Israel, so when it comes to balancing acts, it's tough to beat India
 
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nothings final

remember its a game
let US leave afghanistan and see what happens then all i can see is a civil war all over agian afghan elite is still reluctant to invole taliban in government and there ignorance can inflict massive damage to thew region
at the end of the day u never know what will happen tommorow
 
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We have might have the upper hand for now but has anyone given a thought that we have a far bigger threat inside Pakistani which can very easily and very conveniently change this upper hand into a defeat. That threat happens to be the current PM of Pakistan who values his personal interests with far more than the interest of Pakistan, a case in point "Kargil"
Pakistan has always been unlucky because for the past 65+ years, we have been defeated not by external threats but our very own politicians, again a case in point Bangladesh.
Unfortunately the people of Pakistan have spoken and so there isnt much which can be done about this threat. We ourselves are our biggest enemy.
 
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to start with and without supporting their ideology, talibans did not have anything to do with 9/11. Instead they were even willing to hand over OBL to a neutral country where he could be tried etc. Hence the notion put forward in the beginning of the article is factually incorrect. If i go a step further, US war on Afghanistan has made this region more Al-Qaeda infested than it ever was.

coming towards india losing or winning, these terms are broad and can be interpreted whichever way you wish. the only thing important to Pakistan is that India does not have the freedom to fuel insurgencies within our border. now u may argue otherwise but the Pakistani government and the establishment does believe that India is playing a significant role in stirring trouble. Now our counter-strategy will not be with respect to what we can prove to indians but what we believe is happening. Hence, proof or no proof is of no strategic importance. and unfortunately our past experience with India with respect to Mukti Bahani and taking over of Siachen does not give India the liberty of calling herself a holy cow.

to make it clear, pakistan supporting proxy groups against india in the past has done more harm than good. but letting india use a third country to support insurgency is not strategically viable.
 
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The writing has been on the wall ever since the US reached out to the Pakistan backed Taliban for "peace talks". India has been shut out of the entire "end game" process- it has not been invited to any of the peace talks which have involved ISAF nations, Russia and Pakistan.

Unless the current status quo is able to be maintained with a democratic system in place, India is going to see a return back to the Taliban-era relationship with Pakistan.
 
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India lost in Afghan endgame

By Kanwal Sibal

Issue Courtesy: Mail Today | Date : 27 Aug , 2013

The situation in Afghanistan is full of uncertainties and the prospects of India’s neighbourhood becoming even more difficult for us are real. We have little control over the situation in Afghanistan, however popular we may be with its government and people. We have invested considerable political and financial capital in Afghanistan for protecting our longer term interests in the region, but adequate returns are not guaranteed.

Afghanistan has been a conflict zone for over three decades now. To our misfortune it became a cold war battleground between the Soviet Union and the US, with the result that both an extremist version of Islam and Pakistan became powerful actors in shaping developments there under the US lead. Until then, Pakistan was not a dominant factor in Afghanistan internally and externally. Later, as US attention moved towards Iraq, Pakistan saw an opportunity to control Afghanistan strategically by using Islamic fanaticism embodied by the Taliban as a tool.

Hare & Hounds

The deliberate Islamisation of Pakistan by Zia-ul-Haq prepared a favourable ground for the creation of the Taliban under Benazir Bhutto’s civilian government. The nurturing of extremist religious groups by the Pakistan military for terrorist attacks against India was another facet of the growing Islamization of Pakistan’s society and the practical use of these forces for political ends, as in Afghanistan’s case.

Religious fanatics in our region gained further force with Al Qaida’s entry on the back of the Taliban. These forces overplayed their hand in attacking the US on September 11, inviting an American military riposte that ousted the Taliban from power. That Osama Laden got refuge in Pakistan for many years in different places points to the existence of an effective network of Islamist cells in Pakistan, which raises concerns for the future. When, with Taliban’s ouster, US attention turned towards Iraq for the second time, Pakistan once again saw an opportunity to regain its lost ground in Afghanistan through the Taliban groups it continued sheltering on its territory.

With Taliban groups targeting NATO forces from safe-havens in Pakistan, US pressure on Pakistan to control these groups was inevitable. This exposed the inherent contradiction in Pakistan’s posture on religious extremism and terrorism, with the Pakistan state and society, at one level, nurturing these forces, while, at another level, acting against them under external constraint. This policy of running with the hare and hunting with the hound has exposed Pakistan to accusations of duplicity and double-faced policies by its western supporters, a discovery India made years earlier. But this awakening has not brought about any drastic change in the West’s handling either of Pakistan per se or its destabilizing ambitions in Afghanistan.

The Third Time

The irony from India’s point of view is that having fortified the virus of Islamism in the region and then having combated it at great human, financial and military cost, the US and the West are once again reaching out to the same forces, this time not to defeat a cold war rival but to cover up their own retreat with a veneer of semi-success. The accommodation of the Taliban in the mid-1990s was for immediate economic allurements, with no concern that such obscurantist forces would spread terror to the US. The US overlooked the problematic aspects of Pakistan’s conduct because of tepid India-US relations. Pakistan was a useful balancing factor.

Today India and the US have a strategic partnership. The US has a grand vision of linking Central Asia and South Asia through a new silk road, with energy projects like TAPI as a centre-piece. It seems to want to repeat its previous mis-reading of Taliban’s Islamic fanaticism by believing that its commitment to break links with Al Qaida would protect the US from future terrorist attacks. This will be the third time that the US will take Afghanistan off its radar screen, benefiting once again the Taliban with its religious ideology and Pakistan with its strategic ambitions while compromising India’s interests despite the so-called transformation of India-US ties.

In a hard place

India will be hard put to secure its interests in Afghanistan in the conditions under which the US intends to withdraw. The Afghan security forces may be able to prevent an outright Taliban military victory, but providing security all over the country against Taliban depredations would be outside their capacity, given their present ability to stage terrorist attacks even in highly protected areas such as Kabul. Sending more security personnel to protect our projects is not a solution.

Though we have a strategic partnership agreement with Afghanistan that provides also for arms support, even if we were to step up our training assistance considerably and provide some combat equipment, it would not substitute for the Afghan army’s lack of air support, heavy weaponry and intelligence capability. Pakistan is determined to neutralize India’s influence in Afghanistan, as the attack on our Jalalabad consulate indicates unfortunately. It is allergic to the idea of an India-friendly Afghan government. It finds it intolerable that we train Afghan military officers in India when their offers to provide such training are being rebuffed. Nawaz Sharif has begun voicing the charge that India is behind some disturbances in Pakistan.

We can help reduce the threats to Afghanistan’s internal stability in consultation with Iran, Russia and the Central Asian states. China cannot be relied upon because in any scenario it will be with Pakistan and leverage its influence with the Taliban to protect Chinese interests. Pakistan is central to China’s strategy to economically exploit Afghanistan and link it and neighbouring Central Asian states to its upgraded Karakoram highway connected to Gwadar. All in all, our stakes in Afghanistan are high but our means to protect them insufficient and uncertain.

India lost in Afghan endgame » Indian Defence Review

Really what a shame) India don,t want to spend that money on it,s deprived and starving population but they can waste that money anywhere to defeat pakistan .They will never be able to control Afghanistan.
 
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India lost in Afghan endgame

By Kanwal Sibal

Issue Courtesy: Mail Today | Date : 27 Aug , 2013

The situation in Afghanistan is full of uncertainties and the prospects of India’s neighbourhood becoming even more difficult for us are real. We have little control over the situation in Afghanistan, however popular we may be with its government and people. We have invested considerable political and financial capital in Afghanistan for protecting our longer term interests in the region, but adequate returns are not guaranteed.

Afghanistan has been a conflict zone for over three decades now. To our misfortune it became a cold war battleground between the Soviet Union and the US, with the result that both an extremist version of Islam and Pakistan became powerful actors in shaping developments there under the US lead. Until then, Pakistan was not a dominant factor in Afghanistan internally and externally. Later, as US attention moved towards Iraq, Pakistan saw an opportunity to control Afghanistan strategically by using Islamic fanaticism embodied by the Taliban as a tool.

Hare & Hounds

The deliberate Islamisation of Pakistan by Zia-ul-Haq prepared a favourable ground for the creation of the Taliban under Benazir Bhutto’s civilian government. The nurturing of extremist religious groups by the Pakistan military for terrorist attacks against India was another facet of the growing Islamization of Pakistan’s society and the practical use of these forces for political ends, as in Afghanistan’s case.

Religious fanatics in our region gained further force with Al Qaida’s entry on the back of the Taliban. These forces overplayed their hand in attacking the US on September 11, inviting an American military riposte that ousted the Taliban from power. That Osama Laden got refuge in Pakistan for many years in different places points to the existence of an effective network of Islamist cells in Pakistan, which raises concerns for the future. When, with Taliban’s ouster, US attention turned towards Iraq for the second time, Pakistan once again saw an opportunity to regain its lost ground in Afghanistan through the Taliban groups it continued sheltering on its territory.

With Taliban groups targeting NATO forces from safe-havens in Pakistan, US pressure on Pakistan to control these groups was inevitable. This exposed the inherent contradiction in Pakistan’s posture on religious extremism and terrorism, with the Pakistan state and society, at one level, nurturing these forces, while, at another level, acting against them under external constraint. This policy of running with the hare and hunting with the hound has exposed Pakistan to accusations of duplicity and double-faced policies by its western supporters, a discovery India made years earlier. But this awakening has not brought about any drastic change in the West’s handling either of Pakistan per se or its destabilizing ambitions in Afghanistan.

The Third Time

The irony from India’s point of view is that having fortified the virus of Islamism in the region and then having combated it at great human, financial and military cost, the US and the West are once again reaching out to the same forces, this time not to defeat a cold war rival but to cover up their own retreat with a veneer of semi-success. The accommodation of the Taliban in the mid-1990s was for immediate economic allurements, with no concern that such obscurantist forces would spread terror to the US. The US overlooked the problematic aspects of Pakistan’s conduct because of tepid India-US relations. Pakistan was a useful balancing factor.

Today India and the US have a strategic partnership. The US has a grand vision of linking Central Asia and South Asia through a new silk road, with energy projects like TAPI as a centre-piece. It seems to want to repeat its previous mis-reading of Taliban’s Islamic fanaticism by believing that its commitment to break links with Al Qaida would protect the US from future terrorist attacks. This will be the third time that the US will take Afghanistan off its radar screen, benefiting once again the Taliban with its religious ideology and Pakistan with its strategic ambitions while compromising India’s interests despite the so-called transformation of India-US ties.

In a hard place

India will be hard put to secure its interests in Afghanistan in the conditions under which the US intends to withdraw. The Afghan security forces may be able to prevent an outright Taliban military victory, but providing security all over the country against Taliban depredations would be outside their capacity, given their present ability to stage terrorist attacks even in highly protected areas such as Kabul. Sending more security personnel to protect our projects is not a solution.

Though we have a strategic partnership agreement with Afghanistan that provides also for arms support, even if we were to step up our training assistance considerably and provide some combat equipment, it would not substitute for the Afghan army’s lack of air support, heavy weaponry and intelligence capability. Pakistan is determined to neutralize India’s influence in Afghanistan, as the attack on our Jalalabad consulate indicates unfortunately. It is allergic to the idea of an India-friendly Afghan government. It finds it intolerable that we train Afghan military officers in India when their offers to provide such training are being rebuffed. Nawaz Sharif has begun voicing the charge that India is behind some disturbances in Pakistan.

We can help reduce the threats to Afghanistan’s internal stability in consultation with Iran, Russia and the Central Asian states. China cannot be relied upon because in any scenario it will be with Pakistan and leverage its influence with the Taliban to protect Chinese interests. Pakistan is central to China’s strategy to economically exploit Afghanistan and link it and neighbouring Central Asian states to its upgraded Karakoram highway connected to Gwadar. All in all, our stakes in Afghanistan are high but our means to protect them insufficient and uncertain.

India lost in Afghan endgame » Indian Defence Review


This is really weird writeup.


What the heck is meant for India to win in Afghanistan.

And if you can't define that, then there is no point in talking about its defeat.


Just another BJP bhonpoo.

We are now 10 months into 2014 and Indian presence in Afghanistan has been the same. So much for your prediction. :lol:


OP write-up is goofy

And so are the jingoistic postings by some of the Pakistani and Indian posters.
 
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SAIL-led consortium to develop Hajigak assets in phases in Afghanistan - The Hindu: Mobile Edition

Will it suffice for lost end game ??? or will it take a decade more of unrest in Pakistan due to part of 2 billion $ channeled for.........

it doesnt matter how long it lasts, we have endured it for last 20 years and have courage to endure it bit longer if it comes to that. Remember the headlines and jubilation in indian news papers and news channel, counting months before Pakistan falls to pieces, not realizing history in this region and that because this region was never part of greater India and you dont know these people. Worst thing here is that India couldn't do much when everything was in her favor to destroy Pakistan, this aint 71, they have realized it and now wait for the storm to turn the tides and it will have to be, there is not other way.
 
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@Horus

What does winning in afganistan looks like?

c740f2c4ef03b0755a2b55f1bddf3d24.jpg



or

7222ae078686b6cedebe4bd6b53de092.jpg




If this is winning to you, let me be the first to congratulate you

This is really weird writeup.


What the heck is meant for India to win in Afghanistan.

And if you can't define that, then there is no point in talking about its defeat.


Just another BJP bhonpoo.




OP write-up is goofy

And so are the jingoistic postings by some of the Pakistani and Indian posters.

Ensuring Pakistan backed Taliban doesn't re-emerge in Afghanistan is winning for India... the general sentiment is India will lose and old allies of pakistan will come back to power...
 
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