India: Let Kashmir go

[ajpirzada]

y cant kashmir be a common territory bw india and pakistan lik how northern ireland is bw uk and ireland.??

 

[Always Neutral]

The withdrawal of Pakistani troops was also linked with the Indians withdrawing when a certain threshold had been met, to an agreed upon number. This issue has been discussed in the UN resolutions thread quite extensively, and it has been shown that India backtracked on the numbers agreed upon in the UNSC resolutions, and wanted to leave behind more troops that scuppered the withdrawal process.

Another clever attempt to confuse the issue. Whether India or Pakistan with draws or not is not the issue. The issue is where in the accord does it say that the territory has to be given to China but I guess you have no answer for that ?

Regards

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Another clever attempt to confuse the issue. Whether India or Pakistan with draws or not is not the issue. The issue is where in the accord does it say that the territory has to be given to China but I guess you have no answer for that ?

Regards

I take then that we are agreed that the UNSC resolutions do indeed only offer two options - accession to Pakistan or accession to India by a resort to a referendum.

The paragraph you included talked about 'withdrawing troops', with a question by you on whether that referred to China or Pakistan - I answered your question in the context of the troop withdrawal, and why it never took place.

On the issue of territory adjusted with China - the history behind it, as I have already pointed out, is complicated. However, even the adjustment of the territory (barren and unpopulated as I pointed out) was subject to a final resolution of the J&K dispute.

From the Sino-Pak agreement on the territory:

"Article 6: The two parties have agreed that after the settlement of the Kashmir dispute between Pakistan and India, the sovereign authority concerned will reopen negotiations with the Government of the People's Republic of China on the boundary as described in Article. Two of the present agreement, so as to sign a formal boundary treaty to replace the present agreement, provided that in the event of the sovereign authority being Pakistan, the provisions of the present agreement and of the aforesaid protocol shall be maintained in the formal boundary treaty to be signed between the People’s Republic of China and the Islamic Republic of Pakistan."

That clearly indicates that both China and Pakistan accepted that the final status of the territory would be subject to negotiations on demarcation between China and the nation in whose favor Kashmir was settled.

 

[Khuda Baksh]

Letting go of Kashmir will not buy India any peace. Kashmir is an excuse - even if India lets go of Kashmir, they have other excuses such as Hyderabad, Babri Masjid, Junagad, the Bangladesh liberation war, etc. Take a look at the statements of the leaders of the ISI-founded LeT/JuD terrorist group:

• "There can't be any peace while India remains intact. Cut them, cut them — cut them so much that they kneel before you and ask for mercy"

• "The Hindu is a mean enemy and the proper way to deal with him is the one adopted by our forefathers, who crushed them by force."

• "To set up mujahideen networks across India is our target. We are preparing the Muslims of India against India, and when they are ready it will be the start of the disintegration of India."

• "The Jihad is not about Kashmir only. It encompasses all of India… We will not rest until the whole India is dissolved into Pakistan."

• "Christians, Jews and Hindus are enemies of Islam … it is the aim of the Lashkar to unfurl the green flag of Islam in Washington, Tel Aviv and New Delhi"

 

[Omar1984]

Letting go of Kashmir will not buy India any peace. Kashmir is an excuse - even if India lets go of Kashmir, they have other excuses such as Hyderabad, Babri Masjid, Junagad, the Bangladesh liberation war, etc. Take a look at the statements of the leaders of the ISI-founded LeT/JuD terrorist group:

• "There can't be any peace while India remains intact. Cut them, cut them — cut them so much that they kneel before you and ask for mercy"

• "The Hindu is a mean enemy and the proper way to deal with him is the one adopted by our forefathers, who crushed them by force."

• "To set up mujahideen networks across India is our target. We are preparing the Muslims of India against India, and when they are ready it will be the start of the disintegration of India."

• "The Jihad is not about Kashmir only. It encompasses all of India… We will not rest until the whole India is dissolved into Pakistan."

• "Christians, Jews and Hindus are enemies of Islam … it is the aim of the Lashkar to unfurl the green flag of Islam in Washington, Tel Aviv and New Delhi"

Where's your source for this BS? And we dont want Hyderabad or any part of India. Kashmir is not part of India its a disputed territory, we could care less about your hyderabad. Pakistanis and Kashmiris dont consider themselves to be Indians, but I know you "Muslims" who live in India consider yourself to be Indian. Kashmiris are not like Indian "Muslims".

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Letting go of Kashmir will not buy India any peace. Kashmir is an excuse - even if India lets go of Kashmir, they have other excuses such as Hyderabad, Babri Masjid, Junagad, the Bangladesh liberation war, etc. Take a look at the statements of the leaders of the ISI-founded LeT/JuD terrorist group:

• "There can't be any peace while India remains intact. Cut them, cut them — cut them so much that they kneel before you and ask for mercy"

• "The Hindu is a mean enemy and the proper way to deal with him is the one adopted by our forefathers, who crushed them by force."

• "To set up mujahideen networks across India is our target. We are preparing the Muslims of India against India, and when they are ready it will be the start of the disintegration of India."

• "The Jihad is not about Kashmir only. It encompasses all of India… We will not rest until the whole India is dissolved into Pakistan."

• "Christians, Jews and Hindus are enemies of Islam … it is the aim of the Lashkar to unfurl the green flag of Islam in Washington, Tel Aviv and New Delhi"

Credible links for the above please.

However, assuming the above to be true, the sentiment expressed is the result of animosity over perceived occupation of Kashmir and atrocities committed upon the occupied Kashmiri people by India.

You would not expect those sympathizing with the plight of the Jews during the holocaust to have pleasant words for the Nazi's or Germany would you?

A similar dynamic is at work here, though the validity of the alleged atrocities perpetrated by India is arguable according to Indians, for those vested in the Kashmir freedom movement, those atrocities are every bit as vile and barbaric as claimed.

Beyond the simmering down of tensions and animosity through the removal of the 'occupation and atrocities on Kashmiris' argument, these groups will have extremely limited room to function within Pakistan as Pakistanis refuse to condone their methods and struggle in the absence of an occupation of Kashmir. The state would then have all the room it needed, to act against these groups, if they continued on a path of violence..

 

[Goodperson]

Credible links for the above please.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/08/opinion/08french.html?pagewanted=all

 

[Omar1984]

All of you Indians have gone crazy. No one in Pakistan wants India, we dont even consider Indian "Muslims" as our people, we refer to you guys as hindustan kay muslimaan, but we dont consider Kashmiris as Indians/hindustanis, Kashmir is a disputed territory not part of India, and they themselves dont consider themselves indians or hindustanis.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/08/opinion/08french.html?pagewanted=all

Also:

He regards democracy as “a Jewish and Christian import from Europe,” and considers suicide attacks to be in accordance with Islam.

Pakistanis have said time and time again how they abhor the opinions Saeed espouses here. He has support right now solely because of the occupation of Kashmir and his perceived role in fighting it.

Support for him, if he continues with violence and challenging democratic freedoms, will vanish instantly if Kashmir is resolved, and therefore so will his authority and influence.

 

[Khuda Baksh]

Here are the sources:


• "There can't be any peace while India remains intact. Cut them, cut them — cut them so much that they kneel before you and ask for mercy"

NY Times Op-Ed, Dec 8, 2008 by Patrick French


• "The Hindu is a mean enemy and the proper way to deal with him is the one adopted by our forefathers, who crushed them by force."

The Hindu : Front Page : Sanctions on 4 top leaders a bid to decapitate LeT

• "To set up mujahideen networks across India is our target. We are preparing the Muslims of India against India, and when they are ready it will be the start of the disintegration of India."

The Hindu : Front Page : Sanctions on 4 top leaders a bid to decapitate LeT

• "The Jihad is not about Kashmir only. It encompasses all of India… We will not rest until the whole India is dissolved into Pakistan."

MSNBC: Pakistani militants deny role in Mumbai terror attacks - Deep Background

• "Christians, Jews and Hindus are enemies of Islam … it is the aim of the Lashkar to unfurl the green flag of Islam in Washington, Tel Aviv and New Delhi"

The Guardian: William Dalrymple | Comment is free | The Observer

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Why are you Hindutva ***** interlapping the whims of minor resistance outfits with those of the official institutions of Pakistan and the will of the Kashmiri people?

How sick, cowardly, ill-educated, brainwashed, and smelly of you and your zionist articles. What can they know about Kashmir? They're not the ones being pillaged by Indian forces.

While quite colorful, KB's raises a valid point.

The resolution of the dispute will be between two nations - India and Pakistan, not between India and a militant group or leader, nor is there any indication that these militant leaders enjoy any kind of broad political support in Pakistan or Kashmir.

The support they currently have will be gone when Kashmir is resolved - notice how strongly the Mumbai attacks were condemned in Pakistan.

The entire argument of 'extremists will take over Kashmir' is a canard raised to distract from the actual issue of a resolution between two states on the basis of the will of the Kashmiri people. As I pointed out, a resolution of Kashmri will weaken the extremists, not strengthen them.

 

[Khuda Baksh]

Why are you Hindutva ***** interlapping the whims of minor resistance outfits with those of the official institutions of Pakistan and the will of the Kashmiri people?

These are not "minor resistance outfits". The Lashkar/Jamaat terrorist group was founded by the ISI. As the ongoing cover-up over the origins of Ajmal Kasab demonstrates, these groups are basically an extension of the Pakistani state.

Pakistani children are indoctrinated with this kind of mindset from an early age through official school textbooks.

Nevertheless, I do believe that a majority of Pakistanis are smart enough not to be swayed by such indoctrination. Yet the minority who do buy into this ideology are vocal, violent, and dominate the discourse.

The real enemy of Pakistanis is the Army-ISI-Jihadi nexus. As the recent election in Bangladesh demonstrates, it is not impossible for the people to break free. Yet Bangladesh was blessed with a Army chief who had the wisdom to let the will of the people prevail, and also a credible political party (the AL) with a clear anti-extremist stand. These conditions do not exist as yet in Pakistan, but hopefully they can be created over time.

 

[donrahul]

^^^ dont gripe about "the Bad Taliban" when they kill your leaders and blast away your luxury hotels and destroy girls' school. They all are of the same mold and with people supporting such scum, no wonder they have become a force to reckon

 

[donrahul]

Dont call me a Hindutva. I am not one.

On a lighter note where is the proof? Hand me the evidence and the Government will act.

 

[donrahul]

^^^ Saw your msg, but I was not able to send one to you and so posted in my own scrap book. but arent these the kinda evidences usually discounted by GoP right now?