India joins elite missile tech club today

[Mav3rick]

ok even if agree what you said in the first part who gonna stop us developing a new range of missiles on owr existing weapons or buying the better ones from USA , France , Israel , Russia

You were already developing ICBMs and SLBMs........you can get better missiles from the west but you don't need to do that when you can produce them inhouse and get better at it.

Ofcourse, the choice is now wider and your own. Let's see where you take it.

 

[GURU DUTT]

You were already developing ICBMs and SLBMs........you can get better missiles from the west but you don't need to do that when you can produce them inhouse and get better at it.

Ofcourse, the choice is now wider and your own. Let's see where you take it.

we need more compact and light and road mobile or air launched versions of what we have and devloping and alos many kinds of sub and air launched cruise missiles where we are weak and MTCR will give us much needed tech exposer to do the same

 

[neem456]

First of all, let me state once again that NO, you cannot test any additional range of Brahmos or any other missile that has been co-produced. You can repaint it as a new indigenous missile. However, you cannot just say that Brahmos has a larger range but we lied to the world until we signed MTCR.

Secondly, there are many member states that support Pakistan's inclusion in NSG including Russia. And since we were not a signatory to NSG, there was no binding on us not to proliferate nuclear technology. However, it is in the interest of the world that Pakistan becomes a member of NSG as then it cannot transfer any Nuclear related technology to any interested state.........and there are many states that would love Nuclear Technology.

You are right that it is in utmost interest of the world to admit pakistan into NSG, as soon as possible without losing any further time.
Hence at special plennary pakistans case was rigorously discussed for day and night.

While india's case was not even discussed as no body bothers if india is aadmitted into NSG.
I feel embarassed and insulted that indias case was not even discussed.

 

[Blue Marlin]

no sir bhramos full range or say classified range is around 200-225 miles with a 300 Kg warhead which will increase to 250-275 miles with a 200Kg warhead so i guess MTCR members states wont have any problem with

Well since it’s based of the p800 and the full fat version of that is 600km the brahmos would be around the same. I don’t believe Russia would give the tech of giving India the ability to build India a long range variant of the brahmos. Remember what the mtcr is. It prevents the sale of missiles and technology that would allow a country to have a missile with a range of more than 300km and a warhead weight of 500kg. You can buy tech for missiles with in mtcr reg’s but not above. If you want to go long range you must do it on your own or get third party components with in mtcr regs and work on improving it so it can be supported to make longer range missile. Also do note it not about having the longer range missile. You may as well have a penis measuring contest and see whose is bigger. What the mtcr allows is for India to purchase parts that would make their missiles more robust and sophisticated. Personally if you want my take on it won’t bring much to India as India is making their own stuff the luxury of the mtcr would be to acquire kit that India can’t build.

Now since this is a Pakistani forum I shall drag them into this as well here. And they.......... don’t really care.
Why???.... They can buy them of the shelf and is able to modify them to their needs. They have china, mectron and denel who have deep history with Pakistan. They can go into a joint development in with them and share tech on standard aam's or agm's and it won’t violate the mtcr kind of like what India did with the brahmos. Denel has the marlin bvraam which is a good contender to buy parts of from. They can buy the active radar seeker or the dual pulse motor. And no one will be able to complain. Why? If they said it out loud countries (obviously India) will complain, but if kept quiet then no one is the wiser and its happy days. For both parties and nothing was violated. but Pakistan being the country what it is will only make wont it can’t buy (@Oscar makes that very clear) and if it can buy missiles and they do not like it they can change it. Possibly violating the mtcr in the process.

 

[zebra7]

really? full range being 600km do you think the mtcr woulds allow india to build such a missile with such a range. also would even give you the tech to allow the missile reach it true range

MTCR will allow the members of that group, to supply the limit of 300 km and 500 kg warhead. Thus the Brahmos Aerospace JV of India and Russia, will have no problem in releasing the full range of the Brahmos which is around 550 KM.

Well since it’s based of the p800 and the full fat version of that is 600km the brahmos would be around the same. I don’t believe Russia would give the tech of giving India the ability to build India a long range variant of the brahmos. Remember what the mtcr is. It prevents the sale of missiles and technology that would allow a country to have a missile with a range of more than 300km and a warhead weight of 500kg. You can buy tech for missiles with in mtcr reg’s but not above. If you want to go long range you must do it on your own or get third party components with in mtcr regs and work on improving it so it can be supported to make longer range missile. Also do note it not about having the longer range missile. You may as well have a penis measuring contest and see whose is bigger. What the mtcr allows is for India to purchase parts that would make their missiles more robust and sophisticated. Personally if you want my take on it won’t bring much to India as India is making their own stuff the luxury of the mtcr would be to acquire kit that India can’t build.

Now since this is a Pakistani forum I shall drag them into this as well here. And they.......... don’t really care.
Why???.... They can buy them of the shelf and is able to modify them to their needs. They have china, mectron and denel who have deep history with Pakistan. They can go into a joint development in with them and share tech on standard aam's or agm's and it won’t violate the mtcr kind of like what India did with the brahmos. Denel has the marlin bvraam which is a good contender to buy parts of from. They can buy the active radar seeker or the dual pulse motor. And no one will be able to complain. Why? If they said it out loud countries (obviously India) will complain, but if kept quiet then no one is the wiser and its happy days. For both parties and nothing was violated. but Pakistan being the country what it is will only make wont it can’t buy (@Oscar makes that very clear) and if it can buy missiles and they do not like it they can change it. Possibly violating the mtcr in the process.

Janab MTCR nation could not supply those tech to the non MTCR nations, but could supply among each other. Not so difficult to understand.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Janab MTCR nation could not supply those tech to the non MTCR nations, but could supply among each other. Not so difficult to understand.

the word tech is the problem here. no they will not sell fellow mtcr members violating missiles. then it would just be a group where they all have the ability to make their own non mtcr compliant missiles. i stand by what i said. feel free to disagree

 

[Stephen Cohen]

the word tech is the problem here. no they will not sell fellow mtcr members violating missiles. then it would just be a group where they all have the ability to make their own non mtcr compliant missiles. i stand by what i said. feel free to disagree

MTCR country can easily Trade with another MTCR country

That is the SIMPLE gain by joining MTCR

So India Russia deals can now come out in the open
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India has officially joined the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) as a full member, three days after its failed NSG bid due to stiff opposition from China and other countries like South Africa, Norway, Brazil, Austria, New Zealand, Ireland and Turkey.

As India becomes the 35th member of the MTCR, here are seven things that you should know:

Benefit to ISRO: During the cold war years, Russia denied cryogenic technology to India. However, in a welc ..

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

 

[topgun047]

Does this mean we can increase the range of Brahmos to 800 km?

 

[dray]

the problem is NSG is something else MTCR you guys are mixing a billions dollars NSG witht this MTCR . simply because you failed in NSG so now covering up with MTCR .there is no proplem to join MTCR for anyone in fact they will be happy to see missile countries in. NSG is something else not MTCR . signing MTCR - NPT - CTBT is always welcomed .

China is trying to get into MTCR since 2004 (they applied for it in 2004), but yet to get it.

The Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) is an informal and voluntary partnership among 35 countries to prevent the proliferation of missiles

they will never join it they have missile market and they export it . why should they join and self ban ?

It actually removes certain bans!

The problem at hand was, however, that under NSG guidelines which China pledged to adhere to when it joined the group in 2004, China agreed not to export nuclear reactors to Pakistan. Before China joined the NSG, it signed contracts to set up two PWRs at Pakistan’s Chashma site, as provided by a pre-NSG Sino-Pak cooperation agreement. According to people who were on hand when China joined the NSG in 2004, Beijing then even spelled out to NSG participating governments that it had no intention to sell any more power reactors to Pakistan beyond Chashma-1 and -2, and that China enumerated what was on its list of goods that it had committed itself to export to Pakistan under that old trade agreement.

The NSG’s other 45 members last year did not have a common response to China’s resolve in exporting two more reactors to Pakistan. During the 2010 NSG plenary meeting, a number of states—including the U.S.—requested clarification from China about its intentions. Chinese officials provided only vague assurances that all current and future Chinese exports would follow NSG guidelines—suggesting to many at the meeting that China tacitly implied that the new exports to Pakistan were “grandfathered” under the old trade deal. Last spring, the US Department of State spelled out it would certainly take issue with that version of events.

Is there any provision in NSG under which a violating member can lose its membership?

 

[ghauri05]

If that was the logic China should not have joined NSG either as they already had a nuclear market in Pakistan. But the fact was China made many commitments to the then NSG members including that it would not sell any further nuclear reactors to Pakistan other than the grandfathered ones. Its a different matter that China reneged those promises once it joined NSG by selling additional nuclear reactors to Pakistan in complete violation of the commitments it gave to NSG.

what's a problem in selling a nuclear reactor???? China is aso making one for britain.
You buy nulear reactors from USA n Russia......seriously enlighten me what's the problem here??? or is it just China-Pak cooperation that's bothering u???

 

[dadeechi]

And just as I had said before, and following China's stance, the new Nuclear plants were a part of the pact that China and Pakistan signed before China's entry into NSG and so China has to provide Pakistan with the new power plants.

The fact is only Chashma I & II were part of the negotiation and agreement between China and the then NSG members. Chashma III, IV & V were not. It's immaterial what China and Pakistan claim as they would be considered as back dated agreements. No one is going to take these claims seriously.

 

[dadeechi]

what's a problem in selling a nuclear reactor????

The problem is, as per NSG rules, China, which has been an NSG member since 2004, is prohibited from selling nuclear reactors to Pakistan, which is a non NSG member. Its about China not adhering to and breaking rules of NSG

China is aso making one for britain.

Both China and UK are members of NSG while Pakistan is not.

You buy nulear reactors from USA n Russia......seriously enlighten me what's the problem here???

India is able to buy as it has NSG waiver since 2008.

or is it just China-Pak cooperation that's bothering u???

Bothering me? Take it easy my friend...

 

[dadeechi]

Is there any provision in NSG under which a violating member can lose its membership?

Yes

 

[Local_Legend]

India joins Missile Technology Control Regime. Top 5 things to know

MTCR chair at The Hague said India would enjoy participation in the activities of the club
In a boost to its non-proliferation credentials, India on Monday joined the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) at a ceremony in South Block, attended by Foreign Secretary S Jaishankar and diplomats from the Netherlands, France and Luxembourg missions.

The Ministry of External Affairs said India’s MTCR membership would help in “furtherance of international non-proliferation objectives,” even as a statement from the MTCR chair at The Hague said India would enjoy “full participation in organisational activities, including the October 2016 plenary of the regime in South Korea.”

India had intensified efforts at gaining membership of the MTCR, the NSG, the Australia Group and Wassenaar Arrangement since getting a waiver at the NSG in 2008.

Membership of these groups would help India trade more effectively in critical high tech areas.

MTCR: Top five things to know



» MTCR membership will enable India to buy high-end missile technology and also enhance its joint ventures with Russia.
» MTCR aims at restricting the proliferation of missiles, complete rocket systems, unmanned air vehicles and related technology for those systems capable of carrying a 500 kilogramme payload for at least 300 kilometres, as well as systems intended for the delivery of weapons of mass destruction (WMD).
» India’s efforts to get into the MTCR also got a boost after it agreed to join the Hague Code of Conduct, dealing with the ballistic missile non-proliferation arrangement, earlier this month.
» India’s membership had been blocked in 2015 by Italy, which seemed to link it to the standoff over the detention of the Italian marines. With the return of the second marine, Salvatore Girone, to Rome on May 29, the sources said, “Italy is no longer blocking the consensus.”
» China, which stonewalled India’s entry into the 48-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) at the just-concluded Seoul plenary, is not a member of 34-nation MTCR.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/india-to-become-full-member-of-mtcr-today/article8778729.ece

 

[Akasa]

Admittance to the MTCR would have been a major political victory for the Chinese during the 1990s and/or early 2000s, when its missile, space, and aerospace programs were taking their baby steps and when they needed foreign platforms off which they could boost their domestic R&D.

Much has changed since then, both with respects to their domestic weapons programs (which have been headed by both intra-competitive private and state-funded enterprises) and their attitude towards arms exports/imports. Substantial progress in the development of missile and space-based platforms, much of which was a direct precipitant of inter-corporate competition, has nullified most significant needs for foreign platforms. Ironically, the European and American embargo on arms exports to the Chinese diminishes any major advantage that a MTCR membership would bring.