India finalizing plans to order three more Scorpene submarines

[Bharat_Bhakt]

Hello Friends New Here

one question what is projected price of these proposed new subs ?

 

[Gen Padmanabhan]

We need to learn something from China. Untill the heavier version is available we should keep churning out the present design .
Like China is doing with their Type052Ds. They are working on Type055 , but untill it is available they're not sitting, they are producing more Type052Ds.

MDL & GRSE going to busy with P-17A & P-28A after P-15B, no they are not sitting idle.

 

[Archie]

When I said we will operate at least 4-5 aircraft carriers by 2030-35, every body laughed.

As of now even IAC 2 is at least 10 years away
By the time IAC 3 enters service, Vikramaditya would be over 50 years old and will be on its way out

Their is no point in having more than 3 carriers since we are never going to project power beyond Indian Ocean Region

 

[Echo_419]

This news literally made my day although i read it yesterday in ***!!India must allocate close to 3% of our GDP to the armed forces and increase the CAPEX budget of the navy by at least 2 times the present if we really want to have a blue water navy!!


Nah,as far as i have heard something like the Ticonderaga class,having a displacement of around 10,000-12,000 tonnes displacement.Personally i think we should co-operate with Russia's new Project 23560E or Shkval (Squall) class cruiser.

Army needs funds too

 

[[Bregs]]

IAF & Army seriously needs to take some classes from Indian Navy on how to acquire newwarships smoothly and in time despite budgetary constraints, babudom and other hiccups. Hats off to Indian Navy planners. such is the planning of our navy that even dismal performance of UPA in defence has not been able to stop there plans and newer acquisitions

 

[PARIKRAMA]

According to PSK, Cruiser is not he feels is the correct term but rather Project 18 Destroyer DDG. Firepower is 32 LACM and 60 LRSAMs


He says and i quote
Prasun K. Sengupta said...
As far as Project 18 goes, it will be a DDG. Due to miniaturisation of most on-board systems & higher degrees of automation, mass/volume reductions are possible today. Consequently, a DDG today is able to deliver as much offensive firepower as a CG. All that is confirmed about Project 18 DDG so far is that it will be equipped with an integrated mast with varying types of APAR sensors & jammers; it will have an all-electric propulsion system that does away with reduction gearboxes; & that it will have about 32 LACMs on-board along with 60 LR-SAMs. Laser-based CIWS will also be incorporated. It will also be capable of simultaneously controlling up to four autonomous vehicles (each equipped with a dunking sonar & thermal imager) capable of undertaking persistent ASW surveillance.
ASCMs on board will be the 16 lighter & sleeker BrahMos-NGs. First P-18 DDG could enter service by 2025.

 

[Abingdonboy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/672337510563901440

This was always going to happen it was just silly to set intial orders so low.

And buy some Ka27s in meantime if you all are finding it difficult to do the deal for s70b at present.

1) Ka-27/8s are outdated tech why bother inducting them now?
2) The S-70B needs to come and is being finalised as we speak and the issues/difficulties are entirely self-inflcited by the MoD (as usual) so don't make the IN suffer with inferior products because of the incompetance and self-serving nature of their civlian masters.

Nah,as far as i have heard something like the Ticonderaga class,having a displacement of around 10,000-12,000 tonnes displacement.Personally i think we should co-operate with Russia's new Project 23560E or Shkval (Squall) class cruiser.

Because that has worked out so well for India in the past decade or so.

The IN is more than capable of designing such ships in house (NDB) and Indian shipyards are capable of building it- they are doing so for aircraft carriers right now!

When I said we will operate at least 4-5 aircraft carriers by 2030-35, every body laughed.

I've been saying the same. You only need to look at what the IN's top brass have said in the late 90s/early 00s- many seem to think that the current ambition of the IN is to have 3 ACCs but this is actually the minimum they require to operate 1 AC off either coast with 1 in refit. 5-6 has always been their longterm ambition.

And some idiots are saying that it will take 15 years to make the IAC-2, work on the IAC-2 will begin in 2017 and she will be in sea trails by 2024/5 at the latest.

https://twitter.com/x/status/672337510563901440

No.s of P15B should not be increased rather newly design destroyer be constructed

They are not mutually inclusive events. But that way the IN has worked before- order a very small number of vessels of one class (IAC-1, P-17, P-28 etc) before capping the number and moving on to the next class is increidbly counter productive. The P-15Bs with the MF-STAR, an improved VSR (fingers crossed for the RAN-40L), more use of the extensive real estate for addtional firepower (hopefully >60 LR-SAM in VLS ready to fire, a cell of Nirbhays and 24 Bhramos) will be outrageously capable machines and ordering addtional units is a no-brainer- ordering 4 is a joke.

More P-15Bs can be ordered and in production as design work is being done on the next generation of destroyers for the IN. We aren't talking about decades into the future, the first P-15B will be in service in 2018 and nothing is really going to have changed between now and then making the P-15Bs more than relevent for the foreseeable future.

A further 4-6 P-15Bs with 3-4 P-17As (on top of exsisting orders) will be a monumentally sound decsion.

mark my words the extra ships ordered will be going to A&N command........3 talwars, 3 scorpenes, 2 LHD's, 1 AC, and 2 squadrons of mig 29k and also 2-3 nuclear subs that will loiter in the region with proper cover....


this ship looks very promising and has huge potential in indian navy......they can be our yamato or our bismarck.....

It doesn't make much sense to foreward deploy an AC at the A&N islands when the ENC's bases are not all that far away and mega bases are being built for that specific purpose. Fair enough to deploy Corvettes, ASW assets like helos and MPA, and perhaps even a detatchment of IN fighters for QRA but definetly not an AC. The A&N themselves can be transformed into an unsinkable aircraft carrier and should the need arise one of the ENC's ACs can be down there with a day's sailing.

Same design is fine but the tonnage should be Increased to 10k and more heavy firepower is going to give a Paranoia to the enemy

Given the size of the P-15As and extensive free deck space there is ample room for these beasts to "bulk up". By the end of their lives they will all be touching close to 10,000 tons IMHO after MLUs and such. The IN has built these vessels with growth in mind.

I don't think IN will exclusively place LHD/LPD in A&N in near future.But These LHDs will operate with A&N in mind.There are massive possibility that majority of these will find its place in Eastern Command,just like Jalaswa.

Exactly. Remember the A&N is its own command (ANC) so if you are saying "deploy an AC/LHD" to the A&N this would mean that asset being under the command of the ANC. To date they have only had FICs, OPVs and a few LSTs under their command. This is being ramped up ( NOPVs and P-28s are to be deployed by the ANC) an LHD is a massive step up for the ANC but in the long run I can see it happening given that the A&N islands are India's premier amphibious warafre training grounds. I just don't see the A&N islands having AC permenatly deployed to them- it makes no sense whatsoever.

Yes, something on that lines. Or maybe an enlarged version of P-17A but nuclear powered, with VLS, and capability to carry 5-6 helicopters in an enclosed hangar.

The IN has trouble filling even 2 hangers on their top-end warships (destroyers and frigates) today and you are talking about 5-6 hanger spaces per ship?

Anyway the above will be addressed in the next 5 years so I'm kidding but I don't see much utility in 5-6 helos per ship (excluding LHD/LPD/AC of course) 2 state of the art helos like the S-70B are more than enough.

N Fleet and 5-6 ACC is a good threshold for IN.
For Cruisers, i think instead of N powered Cruiser, India should buy out the plans for SLAVA class Battle Cruisers from Russia and upgrade them. IF N powered Battle cruiser is really planned then it has to be similar to Kirov.

Personally i feel Slava Class (Moskva) suits us better as there is a massive scope of some design augmentations and changing of more modern armaments. See this below

{1000View attachment 276815

We can do few tinkers like
1. Replacing S300P with S400 triumf. Even with S300 the range provides us an awesome coverage -64 such missiles in 8x8 config

2. Replacing P1000 supersonic with at present Brahmos (later needs longer ranged brahmos to have similar range). Also can be checked if Shaurya can have Anti Shipping capabilities. With lower warhead size of 180kg and a range of 1900 kms, if we could design Shaura anti ship variant we are looking at a very high caliber missile. We can also look at subsonic Nirbhay fitted into this role. The advantage of K15 variant if we can develop is range and speed over Nirbhay.
The P1000 missile length is 11m and width of 0.88m . 16 such missiles in 8x2 config is there is Slava.

3. OSA -M SR SAM has space for 20x2- 40 such missiles but specs are length of 9m, width of 2.75 m . Barak 8 length is 4.5m and width of just 0.54 m implying we can fit at least 3-4 barak 8s in place of 1 heavy OSA-M (weight 17 tonnes old technology). This implies we may be able to place approx 120-160 barak 8 SAMs.

1-2 such battle cruiser per CBG and few more for western and eastern command and you have another BMD which is floating and is heavily defending types.

Of course we can do more customizations...
Slava being an old design platform should not be too costly for blue prints and since most of the armaments is almost readily available, we can start building it and make quite a good number in 10-12 years.

It is well within India's abilty to design and build such ships in house my friend.

 

[ni8mare]

They are not mutually inclusive events. But that way the IN has worked before- order a very small number of vessels of one class (IAC-1, P-17, P-28 etc) before capping the number and moving on to the next class is increidbly counter productive. The P-15Bs with the MF-STAR, an improved VSR (fingers crossed for the RAN-40L), more use of the extensive real estate for addtional firepower (hopefully >60 LR-SAM in VLS ready to fire, a cell of Nirbhays and 24 Bhramos) will be outrageously capable machines and ordering addtional units is a no-brainer- ordering 4 is a joke.

More P-15Bs can be ordered and in production as design work is being done on the next generation of destroyers for the IN. We aren't talking about decades into the future, the first P-15B will be in service in 2018 and nothing is really going to have changed between now and then making the P-15Bs more than relevent for the foreseeable future.

A further 4-6 P-15Bs with 3-4 P-17As (on top of exsisting orders) will be a monumentally sound decsion.

IN already ordered total 7 kolkatas so thats, that .........

And there aren't so much space for nibhays or additional brahmos unless a major design is included ..even the P15Bs are going with same design of P15As as can be seen from satellite pics 32 LRSAM 16 AShM

The last P15B will be inducted in 2023-2024 that's 8/9 years why go for a design that will be not efficient rather going for efficient design will be better

 

[Abingdonboy]

Army needs funds too

*Army needs a reality check.

Perhaps the IA's top brass can be shamed into making the cuts required to their manpower when they see just how far ahead the IN and IAF are compared to them. Then they won't be able to use the tradtional, and incresingly grating, line of "it's all the bureaucracy's fault and we don't get enough funds". Yes the civlians and bureaucracy have a part but the IN and IAF are showcasing what you can do with proper foresight and, just as importantly, lean organisations.

I'm telling you if you keep throwing money at the IA (which the GoI doe) without challenging them on how they are going to spend it they will keep expanding! The IA already has the highest budget of all the three forces but- BY FAR- the most abysmal OPEX:CAPEX ratio (I mean it's just appaling). I just don't have the same kind of faith in the top brass of the IA as I do in the IN's or IAF's and it is an endemic issue thar represents the very nature of the three forces (navies around the world are known for being the most technical branches followed by airforces).

I am thankful attention has shifted from what used to be a land-centric outlook with in the MoD to more attention being given first to the IAF and now increasingly to the IN. For now the IA is a blackhole- most funds given to them is like releiving yourself in the wind, the IN and IAF will make much better use of such funds.

IN already ordered total 7 kolkatas so thats, that .........

The P-15As and P-15Bs are similar but different vessels. The P-15Bs aren't even reffered to as Kolkata class. So there are 3 P-15As and only 4 P-15Bs.

And there aren't so much space for nibhays or additional brahmos unless a major design is included ..even the P15Bs are going with same design of P15As as can be seen from satellite pics 32 LRSAM 16 AShM

Nonsense, every analysis done on these ships so far has shown there is ample free deck space for further weapons to be installed and given the P-15Bs will be making use of more automation and applyig lessons learnt from the P-15A it is only logical to conlude that there will be signifcant space savings incurred and thus more scope for weapons.

The last P15B will be inducted in 2023-2024 that's 8/9 years why go for a design that will be not efficient rather going for efficient design will be better

The P-15B will have many efficencies over and above the P-15As of course and whilst the P-15B production is running the next generation of destroyers can be designed. It makes little sense to be constantly designing these beautiful and capable vessels but inducting so few. The P-17s are a perfect example, such capable warships but just 3 ordered and the gap between the last P-17 entering service and the first P-17A being commisioned will be a decade- this should never be the case. The gaps should be 2-3 years at most thus have your production line running churning out serious numbers of vessels whilst you finalise and get clearance for their successors.

 

[vikiiiiiii]

Very threatening for small countries in IOR.

You country can take help of somalian pirates

 

[Abingdonboy]

According to PSK, Cruiser is not he feels is the correct term but rather Project 18 Destroyer DDG. Firepower is 32 LACM and 60 LRSAMs


He says and i quote
Prasun K. Sengupta said...
As far as Project 18 goes, it will be a DDG. Due to miniaturisation of most on-board systems & higher degrees of automation, mass/volume reductions are possible today. Consequently, a DDG today is able to deliver as much offensive firepower as a CG. All that is confirmed about Project 18 DDG so far is that it will be equipped with an integrated mast with varying types of APAR sensors & jammers; it will have an all-electric propulsion system that does away with reduction gearboxes; & that it will have about 32 LACMs on-board along with 60 LR-SAMs. Laser-based CIWS will also be incorporated. It will also be capable of simultaneously controlling up to four autonomous vehicles (each equipped with a dunking sonar & thermal imager) capable of undertaking persistent ASW surveillance.
ASCMs on board will be the 16 lighter & sleeker BrahMos-NGs. First P-18 DDG could enter service by 2025.

Nothing here is pie in the sky thinking- it is all very acheivable and many such features will be present on the P-15B/IAC-1/2/P-17A etc- it is basically a "super" P-15B.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

List of Major Shipyards in India(capable of delivering naval solutions to Indian Navy)
Public
1. Mazagon Dock Limited-Mumbai( At present building Project 15B and Scorpene Class submarines )
2.Cochin Shipyard Limited(Building INS VIKRANT, and Boats for Coast Guard. Also performs repairs and midlife upgrades on ships.)
3.Hindustan Shipyard Limited- Visakhapatnam( Arihant Class SSBN and a missile testing ship and repair of a Kilo class)
4.Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers- Kolkata(Building Karmorta class and Amphibious Landing ships.)
5.Goa Shipyard Limited( Building OPVs)
6.Shalimar Works (1980) Ltd( Auxiliaries)

Private
1.ABG Shipyard Limited( pollution control ship and cadet training ship)
2.Bharati Shipyard Limited( Auxiliaries)
3.Pipavav Defence and Offshore Engineering company Limited(OPVs)
4.L&T (Arihant class)


Now be frank and say are we utilizing their capability even 50% now?
Apart from MDL and GSL,all other Government shipyards do not have their hands full.
And in private sector, they are just idleing.

And I have listed only those who have the capability at present.


If we go by numbers, the difference between China and our is not much, but they are churning out ships at a good rate. While we idle and waste our capability.


And from now on, PLEASE DONT SAY, OUR SHIPYARDS have their hands full.

 

[Echo_419]

*Army needs a reality check.

Perhaps the IA's top brass can be shamed into making the cuts required to their manpower when they see just how far ahead the IN and IAF are compared to them. Then they won't be able to use the tradtional, and incresingly grating, line of "it's all the bureaucracy's fault and we don't get enough funds". Yes the civlians and bureaucracy have a part but the IN and IAF are showcasing what you can do with proper foresight and, just as importantly, lean organisations.

I'm telling you if you keep throwing money at the IA (which the GoI doe) without challenging them on how they are going to spend it they will keep expanding! The IA already has the highest budget of all the three forces but- BY FAR- the most abysmal OPEX:CAPEX ratio (I mean it's just appaling). I just don't have the same kind of faith in the top brass of the IA as I do in the IN's or IAF's and it is an endemic issue thar represents the very nature of the three forces (navies around the world are known for being the most technical branches followed by airforces).

I am thankful attention has shifted from what used to be a land-centric outlook with in the MoD to more attention being given first to the IAF and now increasingly to the IN. For now the IA is a blackhole- most funds given to them is like releiving yourself in the wind, the IN and IAF will make much better use of such funds.


The P-15As and P-15Bs are similar but different vessels. The P-15Bs aren't even reffered to as Kolkata class. So there are 3 P-15As and only 4 P-15Bs.


Nonsense, every analysis done on these ships so far has shown there is ample free deck space for further weapons to be installed and given the P-15Bs will be making use of more automation and applyig lessons learnt from the P-15A it is only logical to conlude that there will be signifcant space savings incurred and thus more scope for weapons.



The P-15B will have many efficencies over and above the P-15As of course and whilst the P-15B production is running the next generation of destroyers can be designed. It makes little sense to be constantly designing these beautiful and capable vessels but inducting so few. The P-17s are a perfect example, such capable warships but just 3 ordered and the gap between the last P-17 entering service and the first P-17A being commisioned will be a decade- this should never be the case. The gaps should be 2-3 years at most thus have your production line running churning out serious numbers of vessels whilst you finalise and get clearance for their successors.

No one wants to Shame army right now,for any minister or political party it is a political suicide.we need some behind the scenes stuff,something like what our ancestors did

 

[Abingdonboy]

No one wants to Shame army right now,for any minister or political party it is a political suicide.we need some behind the scenes stuff,something like what our ancestors did

Exactly, India's poltical landscape isn't ready to have a frank conversation on this matter- India is FAR too caught up in "government jobs" right now.

This is why the situation will persist for decades, I hope Parrikhar's "trimming the fat" comments translate into something but they won't be enough no matter what happens that is clear from the outset.

 

[Indian Jatt]

It doesn't make much sense to foreward deploy an AC at the A&N islands when the ENC's bases are not all that far away and mega bases are being built for that specific purpose. Fair enough to deploy Corvettes, ASW assets like helos and MPA, and perhaps even a detatchment of IN fighters for QRA but definetly not an AC. The A&N themselves can be transformed into an unsinkable aircraft carrier and should the need arise one of the ENC's ACs can be down there with a day's sailing.

yes sir i agree with you.....AC can loiter their for day's sailing, but why cant A&N be transformed into a full fledged naval command???we need to put some serious power their, the game is turning towards the chinese, and can we keep SSN's or SSK's their after 2020???

I don't think AC will be berthed in A&N can't rule out the LHD's.. there's more possibility of Kamorta being placed in A&N than LHD's

yes i agree with you sir......but past 2025 their is possibility that it may be converted to a full fledged naval command like pearl harbour.....yes it is disadvantage too as these ships will be fighting first, but if they hold up may be our ENC can contribute and take the fight closer to chinese home land.....