India-China rivalry

[Shotgunner51]

Frankly I think there is two distinct views in China.One is from young generation,another is from old generation.
Now the development of cyber is too fast but we just could get some paritial and unilateral information from the internet such as forum.
In views of my parents,India is a great and centuried country.A lot of Indian TV plays was loved and they think Indian man is handsome and especially Indian girl is beautiful.Before we hardly got negative information from TV.So we were more positive to India.But now for young generation,the trend is changed.Because we pay more attention to the dispute on territory and we always discuss the negative news of India.But my parents still don't know more about this dispute and they are not cynical like young generation.
If the territory dispute could be resolved,I think Chinese and Indian will become friendly again.Because in our mind,we hope the relationship of two giants could be more better.In addition,even though we have dispute on territory,if Indian doesn't follow the step of America,we are ok as well.We hope Indian diplomacy could more independent.

Bro I agree with some of your views, like their interesting singing & dancing movies (but my parents have never watched one), and especially about Indian girls, really gorgeous OMG! But seriously I beg to differ on two main points:

1) The "giant" myth. People got this based on one and only one parameter - population size. But if you factor in other elements like poverty, unnourishment, health/physique, life expectancy, education, literacy, etc., the "effective" population is much smaller, the "ineffective" population could even be a burden to a country. In fact if you check productivity data/outcomes, India is smaller than China not by margin but by order of magnitude. I cannot speculate on the future, no one knows, but now India is not a giant, just a lot of people.

2) The "territorial dispute" myth. Chinese would simply think that this is the only obstacle in bi-lateral relationship, the fact is not that simple. Indians are obsessed with Chinese, that's the true underlying reason. But why? Indians have been colonialized for centuries, and thus naturally there is an inferiority complex towards white (e.g. Our Sunita complex... ). And this complex will naturally seek refuge by trying to find superiority over other non-whites (victim-victimizer symptom). Who then? Blacks are too far, Arabs have oil, Japanese and other E Asians are too advanced, so why not commie China? Similar population size, same dirt poor or even worse, that will help comfort some inferiority complex. But that's a huge delusional thought, it turns out that mainland Chinese despite being commie just did exactly what they should do like the East Asians. Now that India is left lonely behind, the more successful China become, then more envy, and more hate. If they don't break this delusion that China is not the same people as them, the hate will just continue to grow while compounded by the "giant" myth.

Sorry bro there is no way out.

Also a lot of the richest Hong Kongers were originally from Shanghai as well.

(I have a few Shanghainese friends here too).

Do you notice when you count to 10 in Cantonese it sounds a bit similar to Shanghainese?

Actually 6, 7, 8 are closer ...

 

[Yizhi]

Bro I agree with some of your views, like their interesting singing & dancing movies (but my parents have never watched one), and especially about Indian girls, really gorgeous OMG! But seriously I beg to differ on two main points:

1) The "giant" myth. People got this based on one and only one parameter - population size. But if you factor in other elements like poverty, unnourishment, health/physique, life expectancy, education, literacy, etc., the "effective" population is much smaller, the "ineffective" population could even be a burden to a country. In fact if you check productivity data/outcomes, India is smaller than China not by margin but by order of magnitude. I cannot speculate on the future, no one knows, but now India is not a giant, just a lot of people.

2) The "territorial dispute" myth. Chinese would simply think that this is the only obstacle in bi-lateral relationship, the fact is not that simple. Indians are obsessed with Chinese, that's the true underlying reason. But why? Indians have been colonialized for centuries, and thus naturally there is an inferiority complex towards white (e.g. Our Sunita complex... ). And this complex will naturally seek refuge by trying to find superiority over other non-whites (victim-victimizer symptom). Who then? Blacks are too far, Arabs have oil, Japanese and other E Asians are too advanced, so why not commie China? Similar population size, same dirt poor or even worse, that will help comfort some inferiority complex. But that's a huge delusional thought, it turns out that mainland Chinese despite being commie just did exactly what they should do like the East Asians. Now that India is left lonely behind, the more successful China become, then more envy, and more hate. If they don't break this delusion that China is not the same people as them, the hate will just continue to grow while compounded by the "giant" myth.

Sorry bro there is no way out.



Actually 6, 7, 8 are closer ...

it's painful for me to write long reply like yours, i'm jealous now.

 

[Shotgunner51]

it's painful for me to write long reply like yours, i'm jealous now.

Come on don't flatter me, you are the sophisticated guy ...

I just hope more Chinese bros here see the fact, fact behind the fact, no delusion, get pragmatic and prevail.

By the way this "切戒高傲浮躁、认清事实本质、沉实积累力量、全盘从长计议、上合纵下连横、待天时择地利、全力一击制胜" can you help translate? I may post my signature in English

 

[Yizhi]

Come on don't flatter me, you are the sophisticated guy ...

I just hope more Chinese bros here see the fact, fact behind the fact, no delusion, get pragmatic and prevail.

By the way this "切戒高傲浮躁、认清事实本质、沉实积累力量、全盘从长计议、上合纵下连横、待天时择地利、全力一击制胜" can you help translate? I may post my signature in English

i'm the civilian nerd... not sophisticated at all....
i grew up in Shenzhen yet can't speak Cantonese...... so don't put too much faith in my language skills....

Don't know why you say the 'India China rivalry game' is West-invented.It's not true.

i'm looking beyond geopolitics, not the 1962 thing or border issue. check how it started post 2000.

the new round of 'China India competition' was basically a creation of Western economists looking at China's growth, then thought about India -- 'the largest democracy', 'more than 1 billion people', 'freedom and diversity' -- India could do it too. the 'India model' represented many values that West celebrated while the Chinese one looked alien to them. there was vested interest in the West to keep the 'race' on.

India bought every word coming out of bullish Western economists, which i'm not sure was a good thing for India. the cheer-leading Western reports certainly boasted India's confidence level, but also gave many Indians the wrong impression that somehow they could challenge China or gain 'superpower status' automatically thanks to 'younger bigger future population' or 'huge potential in the future' or 'being a democracy'.

we know very well what it takes to bring prosperity to over 1 billion people. it's never that easy as presented.

 

[Tractor]

Some context first.

1. We usually come to hear of China in our school text books as kids while reading the phrase " hindi chini bhai bhai" roughly translated as "Indi chini Bros bros". That is still the first introduction a child gets in india when they are taught about chinese.
Then comes the war of 1962. Needless to say Nehru is glorified and Chinese are not exactly shown in a flattering way.
The narrative then shifts to Pakistan, West, Indian growth or lack of it, pollitics etc. etc. Simply put china doesn't occupy that much mindscape of common indian to be paid much attention.

One thing one might note is that though our boundaries are common we have no similarity in culture, habits, language and our customs are poles apart. Chinese are sometimes seen as dog and cat eaters, basically who will eat anything. We are selective in our food habits. so that is a point of discussion.

Only recently Chinese have been getting more aggressive with india in form of regular flareups and 'camping' issues. This has quite recently taken the opinion of educated middle class away from somewhat indifference to a slight negative.

2. Chinese are also known as an ancient civilisation, as rich as ours. So there is an element of respect for 'Chinese culture'. Also Buddhism spread from India to china hence there is a sense of brotherhood as well. (That gets lost in boundary issue now a days)

Different style of government, arrogant, catching up with US, P5 country are other things that come to mind. So overall sweet n sour. A palatable concoction I would say.



Not really. Those amongst more educated who have made an effort to understand the boundary issue to our east realise the need of course correction and a more authentic representation of the events. Also those in government usually have a more nuanced view of the relationship.
Lastly Nehru story was the result of congress rule over a period of 60 years. Do not think much about it. Of course he will stay as the imagery is needed but thats it.

attitude is everything

 

[Shotgunner51]

i'm looking beyond geopolitics, not the 1962 thing or border issue. check how it started post 2000.

the new round of 'China India competition' was basically a creation of Western economists looking at China's growth, then thought about India -- 'the largest democracy', 'more than 1 billion people', 'freedom and diversity' -- India could do it too. the 'India model' represented many values that West celebrated while the Chinese one looked alien to them. there was vested interest in the West to keep the 'race' on.

India bought every word coming out of bullish Western economists, which i'm not sure was a good thing for India. the cheer-leading Western reports certainly boasted India's confidence level, but also gave many Indians the wrong impression that somehow they could challenge China or gain 'superpower status' automatically thanks to 'younger bigger future population' or 'huge potential in the future' or 'being a democracy'.

The quality of some Western so-called economists are truly doubtful, remember decades ago they compared Ghana or Philippines vs Korea? I always wonder why they called Singapore or Korea economic miracles, but take Belgium or Netherlands for granted? We have to see the rationale behind.

Even if you don't take geopolitics into account, hyping such seems stupid comparison is good for the West, it's a lot of money. They need to find markets for their arms. Africa? Ok but too poor, no much profits. India is perfect for them, easy to manipulate public opinion (ex-colony, hate China), easy to talk government (you know the drill), no competition (weak industrial base), though poor per capita but volume is very good, who else can be a more ideal market?

 

[Yizhi]

The quality of some Western so-called economists are truly doubtful, remember decades ago they compared Ghana or Philippines vs Korea? I always wonder why they called Singapore or Korea economic miracles, but take Belgium or Netherlands for granted? We have to see the rationale behind.

Even if you don't take geopolitics into account, hyping such seems stupid comparison is good for the West, it's a lot of money. They need to find markets for their arms. Africa? Ok but too poor, no much profits. India is perfect for them, easy to manipulate public opinion (ex-colony, hate China), easy to talk government (you know the drill), no competition (weak industrial base), though poor per capita but volume is very good, who else can be a more ideal market?

oh...Africa...speaking of the 'aid', that's a Western design too. seriously, in 70s China and India are poorer than Africa, and we didn't get those 'aid'. it's 60 some years after independence in most African countries now, it's not good.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

1. We usually come to hear of China in our school text books as kids while reading the phrase " hindi chini bhai bhai" roughly translated as "Indi chini Bros bros". That is still the first introduction a child gets in india when they are taught about chinese.
Then comes the war of 1962. Needless to say Nehru is glorified and Chinese are not exactly shown in a flattering way.

Yet according to India's own internal military report (the Henderson-Brooks report), it was India that started the 1962 war with China? While we were in the middle of the worst famine in our history no less?

It wasn't China, but Nehru who declared 1962 war - The Times of India

According to India's own generals who fought in the 1962 war, Nehru ordered the construction of military posts far BEYOND the MacMahon line, in pure undisputed Chinese territory. Then Nehru ordered the Indian Army to "throw out the Chinese" from our own land!

But despite being leaked, the Indian Government still refuses to declassify the Henderson-Brooks report, they still want to teach that China was the aggressor, even though their own generals said the opposite.

That's out of our hands, nothing we can do about this.

 

[arbit]

Yet according to India's own internal military report (the Henderson-Brooks report), it was India that started the 1962 war with China? While we were in the middle of the worst famine in our history no less?

It wasn't China, but Nehru who declared 1962 war - The Times of India

According to India's own generals who fought in the 1962 war, Nehru ordered the construction of military posts far BEYOND the MacMahon line, in pure undisputed Chinese territory. Then Nehru ordered the Indian Army to "throw out the Chinese" from our own land!

But despite being leaked, the Indian Government still refuses to declassify the Henderson-Brooks report, they still want to teach that China was the aggressor, even though their own generals said the opposite.

That's out of our hands, nothing we can do about this.

Most of us know what you have stated. For a newly independent country such as ours Nehru was a name which gave India its identity in its early years. His wrong decisions, blunders indeed were kept hidden, lest the idol crumble to dust.

India of now is different, a lot of things are out in the open and nehru and his policies are open to discussion. Indeed many people are aware that the plebiscite issue in UN regarding kashmir was nehru's doing.
He messed up the relations with China as well.
This further resulted in China's support to Pakistan to keep india in check and things went downwards from there. Quite unfortunate. Lets see if we can reestablish the trust.

Don't choke on the toothpaste, you're the one who got riled up. You started it first!
Cow Dung Toothpaste Has Taken India by Storm! Would You Try It?

Unlike backward one, sophisticated cuisine experience with the exotic food. Bull testicles: Rocky Mountain oysters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is a delicacy in Europe and America.

It's all about the sophisticated culinary skill involved. That is why India is obsessed with Chinese food.

LOL took you a long time googling. I will not reply in kind to this one.
Lets pull our punches. What say? (Also i might add, I have enjoyed reading your posts elsewhere)

P.s- I like chinese food as well.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

@Fattyacids @arbit let's get back to the topic please.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Most of us know what you have stated. For a newly independent country such as ours Nehru was a name which gave India its identity in its early years. His wrong decisions, blunders indeed were kept hidden, lest the idol crumble to dust.

India of now is different, a lot of things are out in the open and nehru and his policies are open to discussion. Indeed many people are aware that the plebiscite issue in UN regarding kashmir was nehru's doing.
He messed up the relations with China as well.
This further resulted in China's support to Pakistan to keep india in check and things went downwards from there. Quite unfortunate. Lets see if we can reestablish the trust.



LOL took you a long time googling. I will not reply in kind to this one.
Lets pull our punches. What say? (Also i might add, I have enjoyed reading your posts elsewhere)

P.s- I like chinese food as well.

This is what my strategy is. These days already Nehru has a very nasty image. We can easily change the narrative and put all the fault on him and congress. (Which is actually true)

 

[Keel]

Most of us know what you have stated. For a newly independent country such as ours Nehru was a name which gave India its identity in its early years. His wrong decisions, blunders indeed were kept hidden, lest the idol crumble to dust.

India of now is different, a lot of things are out in the open and nehru and his policies are open to discussion. Indeed many people are aware that the plebiscite issue in UN regarding kashmir was nehru's doing.
He messed up the relations with China as well.
This further resulted in China's support to Pakistan to keep india in check and things went downwards from there. Quite unfortunate. Lets see if we can reestablish the trust.

If India wants to re-establish / deepen relationship with China by recognising the blunders in the past, then in one whole lot, recognise your illegal occupation of S Tibet as well, ie vacate S Tibet. Throw them all into the dust bin.
I dont know if Indians are tired of buck passing, which is a common feature in fallible democracies.

However, Pakistan is not negotiable. Pakistan is an independent counttry which has her dignity. Pakistan is not a commodity for trade.

We are going to invest billions in India, the ball is now in your court

 

[arbit]

If India wants to re-establish / deepen relationship with China by recognising the blunders in the past, then in one whole lot, recognise your illegal occupation of S Tibet as well, ie vacate S Tibet. Throw them all into the dust bin.
I dont know if Indians are tired of buck passing, which is a common feature in fallible democracies.

However, Pakistan is not negotiable. Pakistan is an independent counttry which has her dignity. Pakistan is not a commodity for trade.

We are going to invest billions in India, the ball is now in your court

As to your last line and your plan of buying us with your 'billions of dollars' of investments. Not happening.

For the rest of the post, we have a vexing boundary issue that I believe can be solved with mature leadership from both sides. I have confidence in both Xi and Modi. Lets see if they can pull a rabbit out of the hat !

Lastly Pakistan! Ah! That is your prerogative on how to deal with them. Its your sovereign right to have relations with any country as you deem necessary. Our concern lies elsewhere.

 

[Keel]

As to your last line and your plan of buying us with your 'billions of dollars' of investments. Not happening.

For the rest of the post, we have a vexing boundary issue that I believe can be solved with mature leadership from both sides. I have confidence in both Xi and Modi. Lets see if they can pull a rabbit out of the hat !

Lastly Pakistan! Ah! That is your prerogative on how to deal with them. Its your sovereign right to have relations with any country as you deem necessary. Our concern lies elsewhere.

There are news on Huawei and Xiaomi which are going to set up projects in India
I think the bottom line wont change and India has to admit the land was gifted by Brits at China's expense
We can live with our countries in peace together; for all of S Asia and also SCS
We can be masters of our own fate - not falling into traps of hegemonies

 

[SrNair]

Yeah really. Why would China compare with a shit hole like india?

Then what was your concern about us when POTUS visit this shithole nation ?