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India-China rivalry

Hey HK bro, you guys are superb:

Last time I checked, in terms of % of population that are rich,
rank No. 5 in $ millionaires,
and No. 1 in $ billionaires,
in the world!

Top 10 Weathiest Nations of the World


得闲多D出黎食个包吹下水...:-)
how come a Shanghainese can speak Cantonese better than me...:mad:...:cry:

2) Also, people please stop posting like if China is paying any attention (e.g. wary, jealous, annoyed, cautious, lift an eyebrow, reach to, protocol breaking ....) or anything pre-sumptious about China's feel on India, because the fact is that there is no love/hate, no attention, no feel, no discussion, nothing from China regarding India. India is almost invisible except occasionally being used as laughing stock (no trolling, go Chinese forums and see the fact for yourself). The state-run media occasionally run a few pieces on India for diplomacy, or just news reporting, boring stuff not much important, that's it.
indeed. especially in public discussions in China India got very little attention.
however, India is not that invisible. recently some India-China comparison studies come out in academic fields, but from what i read they basically end up making the same conclusion: there is no comparison. the two are fundamentally different on all levels that i doubt Chinese experience can help India in any significant way, both politically and economically speaking.
 
Thank You!
That's quite a good explanation and perfectly logical as well.

Actually China has been very important for India and its consciousness from the very start. I know for a fact that normal Chinese don't think as much about India, and hold no specific feelings towards India, especially not that of hostility. I was very surprised that the feelings here towards India are very very hostile, much more hostile than even say the United States.

Let me tell you the evolution of the feelings of Indians regarding Chinese.

1. Indians consider themselves (at least the vast majority) to be the descendants of ancient culture and Civilization which has always existed. We are similar to China in this sense that we associate ourselves with our past history a lot, and in our heart of hearts, many Indians still consider India (I'm not commenting on the correctness of this belief) to be an ancient civilization which was very very huge and successful, in no way lesser than Chinese Civilization, even better than them, which emcompassed a lot of land.
Then the Muslim invaders came, and laid havoc on our land, changed our religion, and caused great damage. After that the British came, and finally left a divided country.

2. Pakistan was born for Muslims based on 2-nation theory. Most Indians have trouble understanding it, and still consider it illegitimate, the division of the country. This has a lot of emotions attached to it. Not only this after the division Pakistan started out "occupying" Kashmir, something that is definitely ours. On top of that they regularly support all kinds of terrorists, and separatist movements in India. So Pakistan is the ultimate villain, not least because the country itself is considered illegitimate by many people, but when they see any terrorist attack which the whole media is swift in denouncing Pakistan for, the emotions are flamed. Media, Movies and everything surrounding re-enforces this thing.

3. Many Indians have this tendency (completely ridiculous, I know) of proclaiming deep connections, even ownership of lands that have Buddhism. They somehow think that people who are Buddhist should either belong to them, in kind of hegemonic way, ( like Tibet ), or be grateful to them.

4. Indian consciousness starts with the memory that our first Prime Minster wanted India and China to be serious friends, who gave the slogan of "Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai" ( Believe me this narrative is so strong that every Indian knows this. This means India China Brothers Brothers, and it rhymes in Hindi). They are told to believe that we tried doing a lot to establish friendship, even "gave up" Tibet to them, yet in 1962 they suddenly attacked and took away our land including Aksai Chin.

5. They consider this a big betrayal. On top of it they think that China is constantly helping their biggest enemy Pakistan, funding terrorists almost literally, which is terrible.

6. They see and meet Tibetans (meeting tibetans in exile though a rarity still happens. I myself have 2 Tibetan friends in my place of study), hear stories in which Tibetans proclaim how they have nothing to do with Chinese and they are closer to Indians which reinforces point 3 above. They also hear stories of missing Lamas, self-immolations and all kinds of stories reinforcing 7.

7. Media and other groups keep talking about China's conflicts with other countries. The whole media erupts like anything if there are border intrusions, as perceived by India (which are mainly because there is no well-defined borders, and hence can't really be considered intrusions, but who will explain it to normal folks?) or China claims Arunachal, and start playing up that. People get furious. Already the freedom loving brigade hasn't given a good name to China, this further portrays China as an expansionist empire which is oppressive.

8. Indian envy China, because as stated in opening, they don't consider themselves less, and hence get furious as well as jealous about the difference. Yet, they secretly admire and respect China and its acheivements and it is often presented as an example. Yet, the common narrative of a back-biting betrayal in 1962 still remains. Our humiliating loss further ashames us. I have seen this as a counter-intuitive thing in politics and relations that often it is the humiliating loss that is hard to forget and forgive for, rather than the victory. On top of that we see you helping our nemesis Pakistan, who is made us bleed on many occasions.

So in short these are the biggest reasons:
1. Help to Pakistan
2. Border disputes, and intrusions
3. Narrative of betrayal, and expansionism
4. Our own envy at being left behind

I know the narrative is incorrect, but this is what it is. I will also discuss in future posts how this was made up by politicians and media, and how it is sustained. We need to work to get over this narrative.


You did a good job summerizing the Indian narrative with regard to the 1962 border war. Several generations of Indians have grown up on that narrative. To us Chinese it is complete falsehood. There are a few things that I would like to clarify.

Indi-Chini Bhai-Bhai was a thing of the early 1950s. Sino-Indian relations started to deteriorate even before the 1959 tibetan rebellion. During the rebellion India allowed CIA overflight to supply the rebels in Tibet. Immediately afterwards Nehru permitted the Dalai Lama to set up a government-in-exile in india. It defies logic to insist that there were no warning signs before the 1962 border war. What led to the war was Nehru's forward policy. It was a disaster for Nehru. The Indian narrative after the war was a carefully spun web of falsehood to exonerate Nehru. He had to appear as innocent as Snow White, being the father of India and all.
 
You did a good job summerizing the Indian narrative with regard to the 1962 border war. Several generations of Indians have grown up on that narrative. To us Chinese it is complete falsehood. There are a few things that I would like to clarify.

Indi-Chini Bhai-Bhai was a thing of the early 1950s. Sino-Indian relations started to deteriorate even before the 1959 tibetan rebellion. During the rebellion India allowed CIA overflight to supply the rebels in Tibet. Immediately afterwards Nehru permitted the Dalai Lama to set up a government-in-exile in india. It defies logic to insist that there were no warning signs before the 1962 border war. What led to the war was Nehru's forward policy. It was a disaster for Nehru. The Indian narrative after the war was a carefully spun web of falsehood to exonerate Nehru. He had to appear as innocent as Snow White, being the father of India and all.
Dalai Lama was sent by CCP not CIA.
1962 war was to liberate Chinese territory occupied by India just PLA could not insist on the war for rather a longer time even a single month on that harsh terrain in winter.
 
You did a good job summerizing the Indian narrative with regard to the 1962 border war. Several generations of Indians have grown up on that narrative. To us Chinese it is complete falsehood. There are a few things that I would like to clarify.

Indi-Chini Bhai-Bhai was a thing of the early 1950s. Sino-Indian relations started to deteriorate even before the 1959 tibetan rebellion. During the rebellion India allowed CIA overflight to supply the rebels in Tibet. Immediately afterwards Nehru permitted the Dalai Lama to set up a government-in-exile in india. It defies logic to insist that there were no warning signs before the 1962 border war. What led to the war was Nehru's forward policy. It was a disaster for Nehru. The Indian narrative after the war was a carefully spun web of falsehood to exonerate Nehru. He had to appear as innocent as Snow White, being the father of India and all.

Absolutely! I wrote in that answer itself, that many things are total fabrications or misrepresentations, but unfortunately in today's world narratives are many times more important than facts.
And I have a brilliant way in which we can change the narrative. That can be done. I have already changed the narrative of quite few of my friends.
 
Dalai Lama was sent by CCP not CIA.
1962 war was to liberate Chinese territory occupied by India just PLA could not insist on the war for rather a longer time even a single month on that harsh terrain in winter.

Please do me a favor by posting your remarks in Chinese.
请用中文回复即可。
 
Please do me a favor by posting your remarks in Chinese.
请用中文回复即可。
为什么要用中文呢?你的英文好不好我不知道,但似乎你很自信。
 
Absolutely! I wrote in that answer itself, that many things are total fabrications or misrepresentations, but unfortunately in today's world narratives are many times more important than facts.
And I have a brilliant way in which we can change the narrative. That can be done. I have already changed the narrative of quite few of my friends.

i appreaciate your optimism. I tend not to be as optimistic. The Indian narrative has taken root among Indians. Besides, any change will come as a shock to the Indian population and will also weaken Indian positon on the disputed border.
 
Most of the rivalry / provocations are india initiated
Examples:
  • India helped the Japanese during ww2
  • India is still occupying our land at S Tibet. They should thank the Brits for it
  • India started the 1962 war against us because of the stupid "forward policy" but was soundly defeated
  • Harbouring Dalai and his followers.
  • Taking opposing positions on SCS issues
  • The former Indian PM wanted Mumbai to surpass Shanghai but failed before the end of his last term
  • CWG's chief claimed India's commonwealth games would be better than BJ Olympics - failed again
  • India has test-fired missiles that are dubbed as "China Killer"
  • India claimed they have beaten China in space race to Mars and they said
"India beat rival neighbour China, whose first attempt flopped in 2011 despite the Asian superpower pouring billions of dollars into its programme."
India's spacecraft beams back first Mars photos - World - DAWN.COM
and the stupidest part is highlighted

Numerous India's cultural things which are undesirable and I am not going further into these. Some of those have already been set as fourm rules on PDF

China may not see India as a peer rival, but I'm sure they will treat India with every bit of respect that they deserve.

I am not sure "every bit of respect" is sound in the light of the above points, and particularly, they are still occupying our land without showing any bit of backing down

@twocents @Tractor
Pretty good brief summary of what was going on in respect of Dalai's exit and the 1962 war in post #49 and 50 respectively. Tractor's c omment @50 was right. Our internal concerns have stopped PLA from advancing further despite total victory was in sight
5f6ce3df7d1190008d36a025f54ae15b.gif
 
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@xunzi @ChineseTiger1986 @Yizhi

Hey bros, yeah a lot of people in China do have negative emotions towards Japan. Understandable, nothing wrong with this emotion especially when the right-wing hawks are taking center stage in Tokyo now. China just need to see the fact that they are indeed strong in a lot of aspects (undeniable facts), and comparison being made with them is fine for motivating us to keep advancing in the right direction, and China is fast re-claiming its rightful position am I right bros? Also, China should keep an eye on Japan's true potential capabilities especially when the revival of imperial militarism is not an impossible event.

Similar attitude can be extended to the culturally/genetically close/identical economies like HK, TW, SG and SK, where such negative emotion does not even exist. So let's avoid arrogance, do some pragmatic comparison, that serves China's betterment. "Blood is thicker than water".
Notice our strategic calculation is mainly aim at the United States, not Japan. You know why? I will tell you why. Our thinking is simple, if you can defeat the USA, you can defeat Japan. Why bother taking the small fish when you can benchmark against the bigger fish?
 
Notice our strategic calculation is mainly aim at the United States, not Japan. You know why? I will tell you why. Our thinking is simple, if you can defeat the USA, you can defeat Japan. Why bother taking the small fish when you can benchmark against the bigger fish?

Yeah bro, the bigger fish we gonna fry for sure is the US, no doubt. In that sense I wanna say Japan of course is a smaller fish, that's one school of thought. ... :tup:

But how about another school of thought? i.e. big or small it is not even a fish for us to fry? How about while we are the bigger fish for US, Japan is the small fish for US to fry?

Japan can't change its location that's close to us, can't change its culture which is originated from us, can't change the fact that trading is getting reliant on us, can't change the fact that it is way smaller in all natural resources than us, can't ignore the fact that its tech-economic structure is complimentary with us. So, what's our best game plan?

We need to pull East Asia back into the core of Sinosphere like before, not push them out. Dropping our point-less arrogance towards the smaller but currently more advanced East Asia economies is not just a pragmatic attitude, it's a must-do to counter US hegemony in the long run. Let's embrace an East Asia century bro! :-)
 
Frankly I think there is two distinct views in China.One is from young generation,another is from old generation.
Now the development of cyber is too fast but we just could get some paritial and unilateral information from the internet such as forum.
In views of my parents,India is a great and centuried country.A lot of Indian TV plays was loved and they think Indian man is handsome and especially Indian girl is beautiful.Before we hardly got negative information from TV.So we were more positive to India.But now for young generation,the trend is changed.Because we pay more attention to the dispute on territory and we always discuss the negative news of India.But my parents still don't know more about this dispute and they are not cynical like young generation.
If the territory dispute could be resolved,I think Chinese and Indian will become friendly again.Because in our mind,we hope the relationship of two giants could be more better.In addition,even though we have dispute on territory,if Indian doesn't follow the step of America,we are ok as well.We hope Indian diplomacy could more independent.
 
Frankly I think there is two distinct views in China.One is from young generation,another is from old generation.
Now the development of cyber is too fast but we just could get some paritial and unilateral information from the internet such as forum.
In views of my parents,India is a great and centuried country.A lot of Indian TV plays was loved and they think Indian man is handsome and especially Indian girl is beautiful.Before we hardly got negative information from TV.So we were more positive to India.But now for young generation,the trend is changed.Because we pay more attention to the dispute on territory and we always discuss the negative news of India.But my parents still don't know more about this dispute and they are not cynical like young generation.
If the territory dispute could be resolved,I think Chinese and Indian will become friendly again.Because in our mind,we hope the relationship of two giants could be more better.In addition,even though we have dispute on territory,if Indian doesn't follow the step of America,we are ok as well.We hope Indian diplomacy could more independent.
It's true many Chinese don't know the border issue between India and China especially about that large amount of our territory are now under Indian control.When I told some old people about the truth they didn't want to believe it.
 
Frankly I think there is two distinct views in China.One is from young generation,another is from old generation.
Now the development of cyber is too fast but we just could get some paritial and unilateral information from the internet such as forum.
In views of my parents,India is a great and centuried country.A lot of Indian TV plays was loved and they think Indian man is handsome and especially Indian girl is beautiful.Before we hardly got negative information from TV.So we were more positive to India.But now for young generation,the trend is changed.Because we pay more attention to the dispute on territory and we always discuss the negative news of India.But my parents still don't know more about this dispute and they are not cynical like young generation.
If the territory dispute could be resolved,I think Chinese and Indian will become friendly again.Because in our mind,we hope the relationship of two giants could be more better.In addition,even though we have dispute on territory,if Indian doesn't follow the step of America,we are ok as well.We hope Indian diplomacy could more independent.

I think most of those people were rural village farmers who were ignorant and havent seen much of the world and the news about India
My grandparents / parents et al never have shown an interest in those films let alone adoring their actors /actresses
For foreign language films, they like Hollywood productions which are far better in quality
e10c8cbcf73ab408cfcda8ea11da1a3f.gif
 
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I have a lot of HK and Guangdong friends living in Shanghai ... always go tea res (茶餐厅) ... :-)

Also a lot of the richest Hong Kongers were originally from Shanghai as well. :enjoy:

(I have a few Shanghainese friends here too).

Do you notice when you count to 10 in Cantonese it sounds a bit similar to Shanghainese?
 

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