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India being left out of Afghan matrix

Yes, I am talking about public, they have a very very negative idea of pakistan, and the pakhtoons you are talking about are not majority but the largest ethnic group which are 2 different cocepts. And abdullah? he is himself a Pashtoon but has his bases among Tajiks which are the second larget group in Afghanistan. Karzai himself a pashtoon is not fond of pakistan. Yes, people of afghanistan have life in pakistan due to their long stay in that country, but that will never change their mind about the negative policies of paksitan, especially pashtoons who consider NWFP as their own land which was stolen by paksitan, so stop ethnicizing the issues when you deal with afghanistan, otherwise you'll lose it all. you guys have already pushed non pashtoons away and the pashtoons dont like you because of durand line anyway.

is this a joke? Learn the ground realities. The people of NWFP/FATA are proud Pakistanis. This is as much our land as it is for Baluch/Punjabi/Sindhi/Kashmiri brothers & sisters. In fact, I have spoken to common people in Peshawar (shop-keepers, traders, cart-pushers even); it is Pakistanis who have the grievances - when Afghans come to this city hanging their flag and thinking this is their playground. On the other hand, I've met Afghans who now call themselves Pakistanis (a lot of them are born, raised, clothed and fed here).

Who are you to speak on behalf of Pakhtuns? There are more here in Pakistan than in Afghanistan!! Ask any Pakistani --he/she will tell you that their heart bleeds for Afghanistan and we want it to stablize. It's in our own geo-political and economic interests. But it annoys the Pakistani when you abuse our hospitality.

People like Karzai, and other Afghans may or may not like Pakistan; maybe you can collect statistics and evidence, since you speak with such conviction. :-)rolleyes:)

They come to Pakistan and take jobs; they settle here as permanent refugees (3-4 million of them). So if Afghans hate Pakistan, why do they come here then?



you sure you aren't indian yourself? :flame::D
 
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Telling us what?the caught RDS?medicine?surgical equipment?indian made weapons?or bas...d spies like kashmir singh?or sabarjeet bastard who killed several innocent people in blasts?or the facts that terrorists like balach and harbiyar confessing of being supported by some terrorist bas...ds from kabul on national tv?
If thats the djin then Heil naked indian swami snake charmer sitting under a banyan tree.moun mein ram ram baghal mein churi.:hitwall:

Refer to confirmation of hindustany meddling, by Ehsanullah Aryanzai -- an advisor to Afghan government


http://pakobserver.net/200904/02/news/topstories08.asp
 
I would direct you to Afghanistan's Ariana TV but maybe you'd also call that biased?

learn about the Jirga that took place, all the info is online
 
Ejaz u r wrong million percent,

let me set the record stright for you from now own.

Talibans were created on the request by you know who, and as we were requested we could only do it if we recognised them, do you not understand that how could Pakistan ask a group of people to fight one of the best Army in the world and not recognise them.
Sorry, I didn't get you here. Are you implying Americans or Saudis? The Taliban started of as an independent force but soon after, they were being backed by Pakistani agencies, GoP and then Saudi Arabia and American companies later. Please clarify what you mean here.


India was a full supporter of Russians invation and now it is plying a clever game that if they were always for Afghans and it is two face by not stepping up to tell that Russia duing their invation killed 2.5 million afghans were wrong and that India was wrong in suporting Russians in their failed adventure, how can India live with itself.
I guess you mean USSR if your talking about the soviet invasion. Indira Gandhi was in power, she should have condemned it outright, it was blatant aggression that India should have opposed and I am 100% against the stand taken by India at that time. But GoI couldn't do that because USSR was the biggest provider of aids and arms to India.

That is the problem you run into when you are taking aid from other countries and become a mute follower of the country that provides aid to you. But nevertheless, there was extensive condemnation by the public. There were protests in front of Russian embassy in India.
Interestingly the PM during '79 was Morarji Desai and he had also expressed to USSR his reservation on the invasion and was a bit more vocal against it. However, he lost the elections to IG later.

And materially as well India did not contribute anything so a "full supporter" is wrong label. With Pakistan being armed with the latest US weapons for practically free and the open tilt US had shown to Pakistan in '71. GoI had to find other "friends" to help it out.

However, coming to the Taliban era post '93-94 then there was some active intervention by India. But it was still minimal when compared to Iran or CARs one of the reasons being the long supply lines.

Iran was opposed for its interests about shia/sunny problem created by those who like to see disunity in Muslims. And play their game like puppets. CAR is part of the same game.
CARs are sunni majority. Ahmed Shah Massod was sunni. it might have played some part for Iran. But the main reason was that Taliban was perceived as a Pakistani/Saudi/US proxy for some countries and on top of that it was the most brutal regime Afghanistan had seen, although some might say that the brutality was needed to bring Afghanistan back to peace.


Let me ask u a question?

What did Pakistan gain out of Talibans, other than thousands of pakistani killed. We had our heart at the right place for not allowing Russians, a communist entity to take over Afghanistan, of coarse our brothers, Pashtuns played a big role in it. But they been doing this for this area for centuries.
My view is Pakistan did not gain. Some others might differ. But how many Pakistanis realise that? Some (including Pakistanis) would say that one of the reasons why the Afghan Foreign Policy failed was because it was concentrated only in the hands of the army and agencies and the elected civilian gov.t never really had any input or a debate on what to do. A moral of the story here is that Pakistan foreign policy particularly for its neighbors should be given to its elected representative rather than being discussed and decided upon in closed rooms by agencies and army. Otherwise the decision made by few will result in entire nation to suffer.

I have not read Rashid's book but if he undermined Talibans, he is not right. I also think that the whole world should have stepped up and recognise talibans, this mess would have not taken place had they done this, but they left this mess only for Pakistan to tackle.


Now I am not a suporter of Talibans, but if they tell me the truth I will accept it, and the truth starts when Europeans consorsium came to Afghanistan to help them during their rule and instead of promising help to feed hungry childern and built school.

They decided to repair Statues, now i am all for preserving history, but first thing first and that is to feed childern, talibans in their anger destroyed Statues, I donot condone their action of destroying statues, they did not however destroy all of the statues, there are still many left.

But why would Europeans consorsium commit to statues, when urgent help is needed for living. This kind of act i would say will not win people over, they had a differant agenda than the one neccesary to solve the problem at hand.

He wrote this book in 2000-2001. It was before the 9/11 attacks. It is quite balanced. I also agree that nowadays a "section" of the public likes to indulge in Islam bashing for no justifiable reason and link Taliban to some "pure Islam" when that is far from the truth. There are plenty of regimes that have done worse human rights violations and atrocities than the Taliban but now Islam is in the spotlight.
But one of the reasons is because a section of Muslims themselves kept calling it a sharia state and a Islamic regime confusing non-Muslims even further.


LET ME PUT UP AN ARTICLE BASED ON TRUTH,FACTS AND VALUES.
IT IS A MUST READ FOR ALL WHO UNDERMINE ISLAM AND PAKISTAN.

Dr. Munir Elkassem exposes world hypocrisy regarding reaction to Taliban

READ THIS TRUE EVALUATION AND THAN TALK TO ME.

An interesting article but not completely accurate. He rightly says that Islam does not allow the things that the Taliban are doing and don't be hypocritical when you equate Taliban actions to Islam and declare that they are the worst when there have been even worse cases of HR violations. He also correctly points out some positive acts the Taliban did but there are some inaccuracies in that as well.

Ahmed Rashid who has been reporting from Afghanistan and Pakistan for 25 years would have certainly more knowledge than this person.

Secondly, there is no reason to link Islam and Pakistan when we are discussing state policies. Or like the author did the Taliban with Islam. The mistakes made by Pakistan has nothing to do with Islam so why do you want to do that. Is criticizing Pakistani policies equivalent to criticizing Islam?No
I am a proud Muslim and I have always defended Islam against unjustified allegations and clarified misconceptions. So no need to bring Islam here
 
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I would direct you to Afghanistan's Ariana TV but maybe you'd also call that biased?

learn about the Jirga that took place, all the info is online

He is the head of Ariana TV, so it would be helpful to come up with another source. I know that there was some issues about involvement in Baluchistan but nothing related to TTP. Still very hard to find credible detailed info on this.
 
India needs to stay out of Afghanistan and let the U.S./NATO/UN do their jobs. India is nothing but a nuisance in Afghanistan.
 
is this a joke? Learn the ground realities. The people of NWFP/FATA are proud Pakistanis. This is as much our land as it is for Baluch/Punjabi/Sindhi/Kashmiri brothers & sisters. In fact, I have spoken to common people in Peshawar (shop-keepers, traders, cart-pushers even); it is Pakistanis who have the grievances - when Afghans come to this city hanging their flag and thinking this is their playground. On the other hand, I've met Afghans who now call themselves Pakistanis (a lot of them are born, raised, clothed and fed here).

Who are you to speak on behalf of Pakhtuns? There are more here in Pakistan than in Afghanistan!! Ask any Pakistani --he/she will tell you that their heart bleeds for Afghanistan and we want it to stablize. It's in our own geo-political and economic interests. But it annoys the Pakistani when you abuse our hospitality.

People like Karzai, and other Afghans may or may not like Pakistan; maybe you can collect statistics and evidence, since you speak with such conviction. :-)rolleyes:)

They come to Pakistan and take jobs; they settle here as permanent refugees (3-4 million of them). So if Afghans hate Pakistan, why do they come here then?



you sure you aren't indian yourself? :flame::D

Dear Abo Zolfiqar,

Where did I question the patriotism of Pakistani Pakhtuns? There might be some pakistani pakhtuns who have nationalistic ideas of separating NWFP, but vast majority of them are pakistanis first then pakhtuns, i can strongly see it in this forum and other places. That was not my point. I had another point that if pakistan tries to ethnicize(which is already doing) the issue of afghanistan and if they try to have ethnic based policies in Afghanistan then it will not be good for pakistan, becuse this policy will boost ethno nationalism among the ethnicities in Afghanistan and the pashtoons of afghanistan will have their eyes even more on NWFP. There was a survery recently by BBC which showed absolute majority of afghans didnt favour pakistan. I am not talking on behalf of pashtoons of afghanistan, thats what they say, i dont say anyting.
 
Afghanistan: India digs in



Intelligence Sees ISI Hand In Bid To Drive Indians Out


TIMES NEWS NETWORK



New Delhi: On February 26, when a suicide assault team attacked hotels and guesthouses predominantly used by Indians in Kabul, the first reaction was that this was a Taliban operation.

But as Afghan intelligence officials began to piece things together, they discovered something else. In their initial contacts with both Taliban and al-Qaida, both groups were ignorant of the attack.

That was surprising enough. But a few hours later, Zabiullah Mujahid, a Taliban spokesperson from the Haqqani network, said they had done it.

For Afghan officials, the trail led directly to Pakistan and to the ISI’s favourite terror group, Lashkar-e-Taiba, which prompted Afghan security officials to ascribe responsibility for the attack early on. Later, they found that the attackers spoke Urdu.

India is now convinced its people are being “stalked” in Afghanistan by Pakistan-supported groups so as to get India out of Afghanistan, and fast. The Kabul attack has complicated a lot of things for India, but leaving Afghanistan is not one of them. In fact, India will be investing in a lot of security assets in Afghanistan, so that prevention of terror attacks against Indian interests are easier to interdict or foil.

As Pakistan becomes more determined to remove India from Afghanistan, by attacking the most vulnerable part of India’s presence, Afghanistan also risks becoming a theatre of India-Pakistan conflict. It’s easy to see why the US would find this troubling or complicating its war there. In Islamabad on Thursday, Afghan President Hamid Karzai referred to this as well. He particularly focused on India-Pakistan relations and Iran-US relations, both of which are being played out in his country.

‘India close friend, Pak conjoined twin’

In a delicate balancing act, Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai on Thursday described India as a “close friend” while referring to Pakistan and Afghanistan as “conjoined twins.” In an attempt to assuage Pakistan, Karzai said his country would never allow its soil to be used for activities directed against Pakistan. TNN
 
Dear Abo Zolfiqar,

Where did I question the patriotism of Pakistani Pakhtuns? There might be some pakistani pakhtuns who have nationalistic ideas of separating NWFP, but vast majority of them are pakistanis first then pakhtuns, i can strongly see it in this forum and other places. That was not my point. I had another point that if pakistan tries to ethnicize(which is already doing) the issue of afghanistan and if they try to have ethnic based policies in Afghanistan then it will not be good for pakistan, becuse this policy will boost ethno nationalism among the ethnicities in Afghanistan and the pashtoons of afghanistan will have their eyes even more on NWFP. There was a survery recently by BBC which showed absolute majority of afghans didnt favour pakistan. I am not talking on behalf of pashtoons of afghanistan, thats what they say, i dont say anyting.


it's in Pakistan's interests for there NOT to be ethnic tensions or sectarian or other violence in Afghanistan. In fact, for years we have been hoping for an end to the carnage, as it has destabilizing factor for us as well; indians dont share a border with the land-locked country, so i dont even see what they need to (try) proving

secondly, the average Pakistani I'm sure has no ill feelings towards Afghans; not even the ones who have less of a chance getting a job since 4 million Afghans came and settled in refugee camps here.
; not even the ones who know that illegal food herders were sending huge flocks of wheat rice & sugar to Afghanistan which helped cause price increase and shortages


I personally couldnt care less. My mind is more focused on economy; and I know that Afghanistan needs us badly for our ports....and we need Afghanistan (a stable one) badly since it gives us direct access to land-locked Central Asian republics. Already we have access to Eurasia thanks to Isloo-Istanbul railways link.

All we need really is proper leadership, and favourable security environment. People to people contacts and suspicion end when everybody is gaining from one another and there are mutual gains.
 
Has US left India out of the loop on ******?



Complaints On Arms Supply To Pak Go Unheard


Chidanand Rajghatta | TNN



Washington: The atmospherics are good but the ground realities are unfavourable. India is struggling to stay relevant and advance its geo-political equities with the United States at a time Washington is buffeted by domestic pressures and international crises that are undercutting its resolve to put ties with New Delhi on a higher plane. Good intentions, broad agenda, and packed schedules notwithstanding, Indian diplomatic foray into Washington this week was notable for gripes and grievances than any significant advancement towards the stated goal of achieving a strategic relationship with the US, foreign secretary Nirupama Rao had a series of meetings on Tuesday, including a drop-in by secretary of state Hillary Clinton at a state department meeting with her counterpart William Burns, but in the end there was no meeting of minds on the most fundamental security issue of the times.

India and US disagree on Afghanistan and Pakistan. That much became clear towards the end of the foreign secretary’s visit although elaboration on this issue was foiled by the cancellation of Rao’s wrap-up press meet (Indian Embassy said she was unwell).

At a time when Washington is searching for an exit strategy from the A f-P ak region, a statement released at the end of her visit (in lieu of the cancelled press conference) tersely noted that “she (Rao) reiterated India’s long-held position that it was important for the international community to stay the present course in Afghanistan for as long as it is necessary.’’ The international community on the other hand wants to get the hell out of Afghanistan — yesterday.

There were other unresolved issues. Rao’s engagement was also partly torpedoed by the withdrawal by the government of the nuclear liability bill in Parliament hours after her arrival here. As a result, there was little progress on tying up loose ends of the civilian nuclear deal including an agreement on reprocessing although there were brave words about the deal being on track and on schedule.

Most notably, on the issue of high-tech cooperation, the Indian side was still pleading for removal of some its organizations from the so-called Entities List, seven years after the establishment of the group. “The Indian side requested the US department of commerce to review US export controls applicable to India and update them to bring them in keeping with the changed political realities that contextualize India-US strategic partnership today,’’ the concluding statement said.

To say India has become a mere sideshow in Washington would be overstating it (besides meeting Clinton, Rao also called on the NSA Jim Jones and two key lawmakers on a day Washington was awash with the health care issue and the US-Israel spat). There were important advances in bilateral matters, including setting the stage for external affairs minister S M Krishna’s visit to Washington shortly leading in turn to President Obama’s visit to New Delhi later this year.

But on the A f- Pak issue, India is clearly out of the loop. Pakistan is again the new game in town. Even as the Indian foreign secretary made the rounds of a capital in political and legislative ferment (over the health care bill), diplomatic corridors were abuzz with Afghan president Hamid Karzai’s own outreach to the Taliban through his brothers and Pakistan’s effort to impose itself on that engagement.
Rao meanwhile was telling think-tankers that Taliban remained untouchables for New Delhi. India’s gripe about US arms to Pakistan also went largely unaddressed. In fact, even as Rao was complaining about the potential use by Pakistan of US-supplied weapons against India, Washington had delivered from its base in Jordan a squadron of 14 AH-1 Cobra advanced helicopter gunships to Pakistan.
 
NSA: India to continue its relief work in Afghanistan


TIMES NEWS NETWORK



New Delhi: Dispelling any doubt over Indian engagement in Afghanistan in the face of rising threat perception, national security adviser Shivshankar Menon said on Wednesday that India is going to continue with its relief and reconstruction programme. Menon said that what India was doing in the country was in keeping with the hopes and aspirations of the Afghan people.

‘‘What we are doing in Afghanistan is in response to what the people there want. We will continue to do what we are doing — restore economy and democracy and help the Afghan people lead normal lives. We will find ways to do it,’’ said Menon, while releasing the book ‘India’s National Security Annual Review 2009’ by Satish Kumar. Since the attack on Indians in Kabul on February 26, there has been constant speculation over whether or not India is going to scale down its operations. India has pledged $1.3 billion in assistance to Afghanistan.

When asked about the status of engagement with Pakistan after the recent foreign secretary-level talks, Menon ruled out the resumption of composite dialogue anytime soon. The former foreign secretary quoted Albert Einstein to say that ‘‘if we knew what we were doing we wouldn’t call it research’’. ‘‘Just going back to composite dialogue doesn’t make sense; We are talking to explore what we can do but it needs two hands to clap,’’ said Menon.
 
well as USA said many time India can play full role but they have send troops in Afghanistan
 
Afghanistan's brother Pakistan trumps friend India
By Uddipan Mukherjee
Column: Machine GunPublished: March 17, 2010TOOLBAR

Kolkata, India — It’s time for India to pack up and leave Afghanistan, as no one wants it to stay there anymore. The Taliban and the Pakistani government never wanted it in the first place, and now even its friend Afghan President Hamid Karzai – admittedly under pressure – no longer wants India to interfere in the country’s affairs. It is just a matter of time now till India withdraws; only the modalities need to be sorted out.
Karzai’s visit to Pakistan on March 10, during which he agreed to arrange a series of peace “jirgas” – decision-making assemblies with male elders or tribal leaders – with “active Pakistani involvement” made it clear that finally U.S.-Pakistan camaraderie in the global war on terror is bearing true fruit.

The United States has disbursed the Kerry-Lugar aid package – financial assistance to strengthen Pakistan's civilian institutions – to the civil administration of Pakistan. In return, the Pakistani authorities have acted with energy in tightening the noose around the Taliban by pumping in resources to the country’s Federally Administered Tribal Areas in order to continue the military offensive.

Ground operations in Pakistan’s Swat valley have also gone forward with enthusiasm. And to add to the list of accomplishments, several top Taliban commanders have been arrested in Pakistan, the big fish being Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, second in the hierarchy to Mullah Mohammad Omar, the Taliban’s top leader.

Pakistan should be praised for its cunning diplomatic moves. It has appeased the Americans by acting against the Taliban without totally alienating the Taliban.

Moreover, the civil administration seems to have handled pressures from the judiciary well, at least for the time being. Furthermore, President Asif Ali Zardari and Prime Minister Syed Yousaf Raza Gillani configured proper arrangements with the chief of army staff Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, evident from the service extension of Ahmad Shuja Pasha, the chief of Pakistan’s spy agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence.

India, however, appears to have bungled its own diplomatic initiatives. It did invest substantial finances in rebuilding war-torn Afghanistan, even completing the 200-kilometer Delaram-Zaranj highway. But it was never unambiguous in its approach.

What did India actually want to achieve in Afghanistan? Did it want to thwart Pakistani efforts to establish strategic depth? Did it wish to use Afghanistan as a springboard into resource-rich Central Asia? Or was it just an economic venture? Only India’s foreign policy establishment can answer these queries.

Nevertheless, today even Karzai has come to terms with reality. He knows that in order to entrench himself in the seat of authority, he has to do three things.

First, he should be on mutually agreeable terms with the Americans. Thus, he must negotiate with the Pakistani government.

Second, he needs to bring the Taliban – either the “good” or the “bad” or both – to the discussion table. To implement that, he must again appeal to the Pakistanis because of their close links with key Taliban leaders.

Third, in order to make the first two issues a reality, he must not alienate the Pakistani civil-military elite in any manner. Thus, a natural corollary is to maintain a safe distance from the Indians.

All of the above three moves would directly hurt Indian interests in the region.

Actually, India’s calculations regarding Afghanistan were spectacularly misleading. It probably believed, definitely on an emotional note, that the United States could be bought by the nuclear deal, its vote against Iran, stalling the Indo-Iran gas pipeline and other nice rhetoric.

But the United States wanted a far stronger ally, which could bring not only finances but also military might into Afghanistan if needed. And India vacillated on this point, torn by Gandhi-Nehru doctrinal ideology and post-Cold War realities.

Finally, India succumbed to indecision, which has been the hallmark of Indian foreign policy ever since the country gained independence.

So when the India-educated Karzai says, “India is a close friend of Afghanistan but Pakistan is a brother of Afghanistan. Pakistan is a twin brother. We are conjoined twins, there’s no separation,” India surely must shiver.

In fact, this was inevitable and the signs were long apparent, at the London Conference on Afghanistan in January for example. India just did not pick up the signals on its radar, or perhaps simply did not heed the vibrations on the screen – which seems most likely.

--

(Uddipan Mukherjee has a doctorate in physics from the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research in Mumbai, India. He writes on international relations and security issues pertaining to India. He blogs at: Machine Gun. ©Copyright Uddipan Mukherjee.)


Afghanistan's brother Pakistan trumps friend India - upiasia.com
 

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