India Behind Karachi Attacks

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And to deflect criticism by finger pointing at other nations shows the hollowness of your own position. If one were to agree with what you say, it would in no way justify the conspiracy theories propagated by some sections of the Pakistani media. In fact, one could argue that such a situation ends up hurting Pakistani society more.

That does not negate my point - which is that your argument about X number of people saying Y makes Y true is a logical fallacy.

Evidence about non state actors operating from Pakistan has been given. The GOP has agreed it has some validity. No where has the US or India said that the Government of Pakistan is directly responsible for the Mumbai attacks. Of course the GOP does share some culpability as it did not do enough to reign on these militants before.

I am not contesting the evidence or accusations against non-state actors, I am pointing out that the Indian political and military leadership has accused Pakistani institutions of supporting terrorists, though they have recently backed off.

The US has made similar claims, most recently with Hillary Clinton and their Ambassador and other diplomatic staff in Pakistan suggesting that the GoP knows where OBL is and where the Quetta Shura is.

Of course this does not include any of the rants by the Indian and US media, which make even more outlandish accusations, and which was the focus of my post. If you are going to accuse the Pakistan media of being 'uneducated and untrained' for pointing fingers at external State actors, then what excuse does the Indian and US media have?

Despite Pakistani accusations, no evidence has been shared with the rest of the world. The only thing we get is accusations and this -

No different than US or Indian accusations against the Pakistani State and its institutions.

and this -

Where he indicates evidence exists but may not be iron clad - fail to see what the issue is here. Nothing different from what the Indian political and military leadership has done.

India Says Pakistan?s ISI Behind Mumbai Attacks (Update1) - Bloomberg.com

Once again, India has provided proof. Pakistan has not.

Once again, India has not provided proof of the Pakistani State or its institutions being involved in terrorism, despite making accusations. The issue of 'non-state actors' being involved is no one I contested or am contesting.

If you would replace Pakistan with India, i think you would have an accurate assessment of the Pakistani media and government with regards to these allegations.

No I think it fits best as is.

 

[Nemesis]

That does not negate my point - which is that your argument about X number of people saying Y makes Y true is a logical fallacy.

My argument that was that it is a bit strange that almost all nations agree with Indian accusations however none agree with Pakistani accusations regarding India. Are you suggesting that all nations in question are inherently biased against Pakistan? I would think that the United States - a nation which needs Pakistani help in Afghanistan - would be liable to agree with Pakistan more than India.

I am pointing out that the Indian political and military leadership has accused Pakistani institutions of supporting terrorists,

Do you deny that the Pakistani government did not support Kashmiri militants earlier? I know that you're argument is that Kashmir is disputed territory and hence fair game. But keep in mind that these organizations are accused of having committed terrorism in other parts of India as well. For example -

Do you deny that the Pakistani government did not provide sanctuary to Jaish chief Maulana Masood Azhar after he was released in exchange for the hostages of IC 814? Masood Azhar was after all convicted of terrorist offenses in India. If Pakistan did not support terrorism against India, why was he not handed over? Why was he allowed to hold rallies in your cities and found an organization which has now been banned under UN resolutions?

Of course this does not include any of the rants by the Indian and US media, which make even more outlandish accusations, and which was the focus of my post. If you are going to accuse the Pakistan media of being 'uneducated and untrained' for pointing fingers at external State actors, then what excuse does the Indian and US media have?

You are deflecting the argument. Even if what you say is true, it does not justify the mudslinging against India in the Pakistani media - which is the purpose of the thread.

Once again, India has not provided proof of the Pakistani State or its institutions being involved in terrorism, despite making accusations. The issue of 'non-state actors' being involved is no one I contested or am contesting.

India's accusation has always been that Pakistan was providing material support to terrorism in India. (See Maulana Masood above). The government of India has acknowledged that since Pakistan's democratic transition, things might have changed. or rather are changing.

No I think it fits best as is.

I like my version better.

 

[Windjammer]

Funny you say that, because it is Pakistan that the world considers as the 'epicenter of terrorism' not India. Lets see you deny it.

No one believes a word coming out Islamabad, except maybe Pakistanis. The intl' community has joined India in pressing Pakistan to take action against their so called 'non state actors', not vice versa, so what are you talking about?

You live in the UK, you read the news, you don't need me to point this out to you. Never mind how or why anyone trusts India, the fact is that they do.

1: It was a terminology initiated by Jaswant Singh who was running around like a headless chickern to no avail, only to be bestowed the tiltle, "Sick man of Asia", since then it seems he has come into his senses.
2: Do they really?, I suppose the likes of Halbrook do the Islamabad rounds to deliver the Indian message, i see. By ignoring UN resolutions and not addressing UN reports, India must have become the darling of the West.
3: The bold reality is the world has come to realize that unlike how Bollywood portrays itself, India is not exactly honky dory.
The world only knows well that despite calling it'self a democracy, Sonia Gandhi was kept well out of PM's office, despite the portrayal of a secular society, ethnic cleansing of minorities is a common practice and above all no one is blinded by the India shining motto as the apartheid of cast system thrives.

 

[PlanetWarrior]

Even before the dead can be laid to rest and the authorities be given a chance to investigate the killings, Pakistani warriors rush off to attack India on the internet and Indian defenders pour out in their thousands to defend India. Shame on you. Out of respect for those who were killed in this act of terrorism let the authorities investigate the issue and let the GoP issue a statement. Pakistan is a mature enough country to have a mechanism in place which can pinpoint who the perpertrators are. So to all the anti Indian/Hindu/Nehru/BJP/Congress etc posts here..shame on you for using such a tragic incident to vent your hate. To all the anti Pakistani/Jinnah etc posters, please be mature enough to understand that Pakistan is undergoing a crisis and that the people need to vent. In memory of those people killed ,I ask you to address the issue and not issues which happened 60 some odd years ago. As an Indian and a Hindu nonetheless, my prayers remain with the innocent people of Pakistan who are being killed for barbaric reasons unknown. If India is proven to be the perpertrator of this attack (even though I as an Indian national cannot believe that the government of India will stoop to such a low level), my aforesaid statement remains unaltered

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

My argument that was that it is a bit strange that almost all nations agree with Indian accusations however none agree with Pakistani accusations regarding India. Are you suggesting that all nations in question are inherently biased against Pakistan? I would think that the United States - a nation which needs Pakistani help in Afghanistan - would be liable to agree with Pakistan more than India.

I would disagree that 'almost all nations' agree with Indian accusations over Pakistani state complicity in the Mumbai attacks or other terrorist attacks on civilians - at an official state level hardly anyone that matters has agreed with the Indian accusations. But my larger point is that even if they did, just because they agree does not mean the argument is true, only evidence can support that, and we have yet to see that evidence.

The lack of evidence (to support Indian allegations) is even more inexplicable if as you say 'almost all nations agree with India' in which case there should be nothing holding back 'almost all nations' from publicly presenting this evidence.

Do you deny that the Pakistani government did not support Kashmiri militants earlier? I know that you're argument is that Kashmir is disputed territory and hence fair game. But keep in mind that these organizations are accused of having committed terrorism in other parts of India as well. For example -

I do not consider Kashmiri militants fighting Indian security forces terrorists, so that does no apply, and the ones that have been accused of terrorism elsewhere in India, Pakistan has cut off or limited ties with.

Do you deny that the Pakistani government did not provide sanctuary to Jaish chief Maulana Masood Azhar after he was released in exchange for the hostages of IC 814? Masood Azhar was after all convicted of terrorist offenses in India. If Pakistan did not support terrorism against India, why was he not handed over? Why was he allowed to hold rallies in your cities and found an organization which has now been banned under UN resolutions?

We did not officially provide him sanctuary - he was let go in Afghanistan, not in Pakistan, under an Indian agreement with the hijackers. He committed no crime in Pakistan and India herself agreed to let him go free, so why blame us.

You are deflecting the argument. Even if what you say is true, it does not justify the mudslinging against India in the Pakistani media - which is the purpose of the thread.

This is part of the argument - if you are going to blame the Pakistani media for X, it is legitimate to ask whether you also hold others to the same standards. The original argument started out with comments about the media after all.

And yes, in an era where the media shape perceptions, Indian mudslinging and maligning of Pakistan in the media does justify the same response by the Pakistani media since the absence of such a response would mean that the Indian message is the only one shaping perceptions. Besides, it is not outlandish to speculate that the Indians are behind terrorism in Pakistan given Indian history of support for terrorists in East Pakistan and the LTTE.

India's accusation has always been that Pakistan was providing material support to terrorism in India. (See Maulana Masood above). The government of India has acknowledged that since Pakistan's democratic transition, things might have changed. or rather are changing.

See my response above -support for freedom fighters is not terrorism. And the link I posted clearly shows the Indian leadership blaming Pakistani institutions (without evidence) of supporting terrorism such as the Mumbai attacks. That debunks your argument that somehow the Pakistani leadership alone has been accusing India of supporting terrorism without evidence. Indian protestations on this count are, as I said, 'the pot calling the kettle black'.

I like my version better.

Too late.

 

[SMC]

I have talked about the problem with the argument that other countries with indian accusations against Pakistan and that argument keeps popping up again. Remember that not too long ago no one cared about indian allegations. Countries do what's in their interests and what's popular and if accepting indian allegations are part of that then they will do it, regardless of whether they are true or false.

 

[Kompromat]

India behind most terror attacks, says Malik

Thursday, 22 Oct, 2009



Interior Minister Rehman Malik stressed that militants are now aiming to create panic in the country and that innocent civilians are being targeted.


Pakistan not to give guarantee for Iranian gas flows to India
ISLAMABAD: Interior Minister Rehman Malik on Wednesday accused India of sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan, saying Delhi itself would be responsible for any terrorist attack if carried out in future on its soil.

‘We have solid evidence that not only in Balochistan but India is involved in almost every terrorist activity in Pakistan,’ the minister said after attending a meeting on security of educational institutions.

The interior minister’s statement that India was patronising terrorism in Pakistan raises a question why the interior minister had remained silent in the past and why the evidence of Indian involvement was not made public in the beginning.

Mr Malik asked his Indian counterpart Chadambharam to stop blaming Pakistan for terrorism in India, saying: ‘Mr Chadambharam should first take care of his own country and then blame Pakistan. Don’t threaten us. We can give better ones to you.’

APP adds: He said that the Indian interior minister should arrest culprits of Samjhota Express bombing, killers of Rajiv Gandhi and many more such incidents instead of blaming Pakistan for being incapable of coping with terrorists.

‘If we talk about composite dialogue, they (India) should not consider it our weakness at all,’ he added.

He said India had made it a practice to threaten Pakistan every three months, adding: ‘We are a nuclear state and not so weak. We better know how to retaliate.’

The minister referred to the Indian prime minister’s statement that more Mumbai-like attacks could take place in India and said: ‘I ask the Indian prime minister that if they have any information about more Mumbai-like attacks they should share these with Pakistan and we will look into them, but if India does not share anything with us then they would be responsible for any incident,’ he said.

‘I have time and again said there was Indian involvement in Balochistan and we have evidence, which could be shared with India, if they agree to come and sit with us,’ he claimed.

About Mumbai attack, Mr Malik said: ‘We have yet not received the seventh dossier, but we have arrested all seven accused of Mumbai attacks.’

Pakistan would definitely take action against Hafiz Saeed if he was found guilty, but the government could not take action against any citizen of the country without solid proof against him, the minister said.

In reply to a question, the minister said that Pakistan had earlier handed over 18 accomplices of Abdul Malik Rigi, including his brother, to Iran.

He, however, said that Rigi was not in Pakistan and said he was in Afghanistan and ‘we can even point out his exact location in Afghanistan’.

To a question about installation of biometric system at the Pak-Afghan border, he said around 50,000 people crossed the border daily.

‘We have installed a biometric system on the Pak-Afghan border to check the movement of the people and the matter has also been taken up with the Afghan government and they have also agreed to install a similar system at their side of the border.’

 

[Kompromat]

Non state actors behind Karachi Attacks
Saturday, January 02, 2010

Says police, Rangers could not perform their duties efficiently
KARACHI: Interior Minister Rehman Malik has said non-state actors are involved in the attack on the Ashura procession in Karachi. He added that initial reports had revealed that the police and the Rangers could not perform their duties efficiently, adding that the law-enforcement officers needed further training. Also, the markets were set ablaze with complete planning, he said, adding that fire brigade personnel were fired upon, which led to delays in initiating the relief operation.

Malik was talking to media persons here on Friday after a meeting held at the Rangers Headquarters with reference to the Karachi blast and target killings. MQM central leader Farooq Sattar was also present on the occasion.

The minister said non-state actors were behind the Karachi carnage, which has already been mentioned by President Asif Ali Zardari in his recent address. “I cannot say if the Ashura procession was targetted with a planted bomb or it was a suicide attack till investigations into the incident were concluded,” he added. He said the probe committee report would be received within 24 hours.

“We have 32 GB recording of CCTV cameras in connection with loot and arson spree. Those involved in this incident are clearly visible in the recording and action had been initiated against certain persons,” he pointed out.

He said initial reports of the Rangers revealed that the bomb blast was not a suicide attack, while further investigation was under way, which would be disclosed on Saturday. He said CCTV footages clarified that the subsequent arson attacks on various shops and buildings were premeditated. “It was all planned to destroy the shops and disturb the law and order situation in the city,” he added.

Malik said assistance from foreign experts might be sought, if required. He said two different committees had been formed to probe the blast and arson and violence after the explosion. The markets were set ablaze with complete planning, he said, adding the fire brigade personnel were fired upon, which led to delays in initiating the relief operation.

“We will look into the matter if the fire brigade had the potential to extinguish the fire. I will offer no comment unless the investigation report comes as any comment before the submission of a report can affect the inquiry proceedings,î he added.

The minister said Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani had voiced concern over the target killings in Karachi and he (the prime minister) had sent him in this connection. “An important meeting has been held. I have ordered the director general Rangers to take impartial action against those found involved in target killings. As many as 161 PPP workers have become the victims of target killings so far,” he said. Malik said traders should form their own funds to provide law-enforcement officers with advance equipment for their protection.

Responding to a question, he said arrangements were made for fire tenders to perform their duties but miscreants caused hurdles in their way. He said in acts of arson, the cloth shops were first set on fire and then plastic goods shops. He said markets were set on fire in an organised manner and investigation was underway as to why the fire in commercial markets could not be controlled.

Malik said not only the MQM workers were being targeted but the PPP workers were also being subjected to target killings and whosoever was involved would be nabbed.

Speaking on the occasion, MQM Central Leader Farooq Sattar said as many as 60 MQM workers were killed in target killings during 2009, including the two workers who were killed on the last day of 2009.

The land mafia and drug mafia are behind the target killings, he said. Terrorists of the MQM (Haqiqi) have built hideouts in the Sherpao Colony, he alleged. “We demand the police and Rangers to eliminate them,” he added.

 

[UchihaCG]

5. Why quraesi and other Pak leader keep requesting world that India is meddling in baloch but not one care.

I like that...

 

[SMC]

I like that...

We been over that again dude.. read my post on this page #81.

 

[Nemesis]

I would disagree that 'almost all nations' agree with Indian accusations over Pakistani state complicity in the Mumbai attacks or other terrorist attacks on civilians - at an official state level hardly anyone that matters has agreed with the Indian accusations.

Indian accusations have always been that Pakistani elements were responsible for the attacks in Mumbai. India's accusation that Pakistan sponsors terrorism in India stems from GOPs continued support, in the past, to terrorists in Kashmir. These terrorists/freedom fighters carried out attacks in other parts of India, not just Kashmir. Case in point - December 2001 attack on Indian Parliament, the Hijacking of IC 814, etc etc.

The lack of evidence (to support Indian allegations) is even more inexplicable if as you say 'almost all nations agree with India' in which case there should be nothing holding back 'almost all nations' from publicly presenting this evidence.

Indian evidence with regards to Mumbai has been presented. It is in the public domain.

See - The Hindu : Mumbai Terror attacks - Dossier of evidence

Where is the Pakistani dossier on Indian terrorism? None has been provided. None will be provided because no such evidence exists. Your accusations are purely for domestic purposes.

About Indian accusations of Pakistani state involvement in the past, your own words suggests that the GOP supported Kashmiri militant organizations. We call them terrorists, you called them freedom fighters.

I use the past tense as these so called freedom fighters - the JEM and the LET are now banned organizations even in Pakistan. Obviously, the current GOP also agrees with India on the issue.

I do not consider Kashmiri militants fighting Indian security forces terrorists so that does no apply, and the ones that have been accused of terrorism elsewhere in India, Pakistan has cut off or limited ties with.

Please give me the names of the organizations that are active only in kashmir and have not committed terrorists attacks in other parts of India? The JKLF is defunct. The LET and the JEM were/are the two most active groups in kashmir - you supported them before, now you call them terrorist organizations. Hence, Indian accusations were accurate.

We did not officially provide him sanctuary - he was let go in Afghanistan, not in Pakistan, under an Indian agreement with the hijackers. He committed no crime in Pakistan and India herself agreed to let him go free, so why blame us.

India agreed to let him go free to save the lives of innocent civilians. He was let go in Afghanistan, but did he not arrive in Pakistan immediately after that? was he not allowed to set up the JEM? did he not hold mass rallies in your biggest cities? As a convicted terrorist, Pakistan had a moral obligation to hand him over to us, instead of letting him set up his militant organizations. So yes, this in effect is providing sanctuary.

To use an analogy, if the current head of TTP were to flee Pakistan for Afghanistan, and from Afghanistan were to arrive in India. Do you think we would let him roam free? Would he not be arrested despite not having committed any crimes in India? Therein lies the difference.

This is part of the argument - if you are going to blame the Pakistani media for X, it is legitimate to ask whether you also hold others to the same standards. The original argument started out with comments about the media after all.

I do hold all media organizations to the same standard. While it is true that some media houses in India do engage in mudslinging, it is not true for all. The same cannot be said of the Pakistani media, (i thought "dawn" was an exception however reading some of their recent articles, they are clearly not). Secondly, Indian accusations about Pakistan, as shown above, have turned out to be true.

Has the GOI has admitted that non state actors in India were responsible for terror in Pakistan? has the Indian government banned Indian organizations for committing terrorism in Pakistan? Pakistan has.

And yes, in an era where the media shape perceptions, Indian mudslinging and maligning of Pakistan in the media does justify the same response by the Pakistani media since the absence of such a response would mean that the Indian message is the only one shaping perceptions.

So you would jeopardize the stability of Pakistani society so as to win a battle of perception with India?

By blaming India, and not the actual causes of extremism. Namely, ignorance, illiteracy and most importantly Pakistani governments support to these organizations in the past. You put the outcome of the war your army is fighting at risk.

"Those who never learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat it." If Pakistani society continues to blame India and does not accept culpability in the current militancy in Pakistan, you won't be able to defeat it. That is why conspiracy theories being made by the Pakistani media is not warranted.

Besides, it is not outlandish to speculate that the Indians are behind terrorism in Pakistan given Indian history of support for terrorists in East Pakistan and the LTTE.

Do you honestly think that India would support the TTP, despite facing the problems of religious militancy in our own nation? What stops the TTP from coming to Kashmir next? We are not that stupid.

That debunks your argument that somehow the Pakistani leadership alone has been accusing India of supporting terrorism without evidence. Indian protestations on this count are, as I said, 'the pot calling the kettle black'.

Regardless of whether you agree with what i wrote above or not, India has at least given evidence regarding the perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks. Pakistan has given no evidence. None. Not about Baluchistan and certainly not about the TTP. So no, it is not a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[notsuperstitious]

AM's persistence is commendable, but there's logical reasoning for concluding pak establishment's complicity in mumbai attacks. How?

1) Pak establishment banned lashkar e taiba after parliament attack, thus agreeing that LET was a terrorist group.
2) Then allowed LET, i mean the SAME people to operate freely from the SAME muridke LET headquarters only by chaning the name plate.

When you knowingly give a terrorist organisation the freedom to run as they please - then its a matter of time before the terrorists will strike again - thus making your complicity in the crime a fair deduction and not just something you can blame on indian media.

and i've not even touched upon the major cover up attempted by the pak govt and the common villagers in faridkot

 

[notsuperstitious]

The LET and the JEM were/are the two most active groups in kashmir - you supported them before, now you call them terrorist organizations. Hence, Indian accusations were accurate.

Absolutely. That concludes it. Thanks Nemesis.

 

[Hulk]

Need more support.
The hijackers of Kandahar was freely giving speech in Pakistan.
Unbelievable can you imaging elsewhere a person who Hijacks a plane kills fellow passengers and is living like state guest.

The evidence about India is only talked about, and every person does dirty work in the dark at night. Not many who do so openly and then claim to be victim at the same time.

What Pakistan is witnessing today is its own wrong doing.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

We're talking about Pakistan here, I don't care about Nixon. Pakistan supported Sikh separatists.

ah yes, the Khalistany ultra-nationalists

how can you deny Nixon/CIA??? They were the one with the funds!! We just facilitated. And besides, the Sikh khatris in holy Lahore needed our assistance. You should ask yourself why they resorted to militancy in the first place.

you cannot have wild mobs of religious fundamentalists going around destroying religious holy sites, and state apparatus going around carrying out target killings against a religious group.

the real problem was that 2-faced witch indira gandi....good goddam riddance. Honestly.

Exactly, but if Pakistan chooses war over diplomacy, India will respond in kind, disputed or not.

well, based on actions and bad-breath hot words coming from your side of border, we can see WHO is doing WHAT

Ah yes, the mukti bhani

Only you forgot to mention how many of them ended up in Kashmir.

once again, why do some of the local Kashmiris resort to violence?

Barn? with internet access? that's cool.

dinner strayed from across the Line of Control

What's to re-read, the GoP's reaction is there for all to see on the internet.

yeah that's true. But you see, india was acting as if state apparatus organized the attack. That is where they are dead wrong. We dont have extremists in politics in our country.

More than I can say about the neighbour country.

The people who attacked mumbai did no favour to Pakistan.

I don't understand why Pakistanis deny such things, everyone agrees on the truth, yet we have people claiming that it was an 'inside job' and even the GoP initially pretended like its never heard about India-specific terrorist outfits on its soil before. It just makes the ordinary Indian think that Pakistanis are duplicitous and support the attack.

things are not exactly how they appear.....rather, things are not how some people want us to see it.

My advice to you would be to first correct your blatant security failures. I thought mumbai was a very important city in india; security should have responded faster. How can 10 gunmen out-gun so many police officers and NSG guards for so long?

Learn your mistakes....Meanwhile in Pakistan, there are court proceedings going on against several suspects. Our courts are fully capable of delivering justice, provided proper evidence is given to the State. We will not carry out proceedings just by shallow indian leads and empty words. This is Pakistan.

India will create as many hurdles as possible. This is for certain.

well, the Ruskies totally ignored you regarding solutions for JF Thunders.

We have pretty warm relations with the Germans, especially on Naval front. U214 prospective is old (from Gen. (retd.) Musharrafs time). We do have other options; for now we already have diesel/air indep. propulsion submarine Agusta 90-Bs. Pakistan is also putting a lot of emphasis on anti-submarine warfare.


Keep creating the hurdles. We just jump over them. Beef good for calf muscles.

Any idea how old our existing carrier is? we'll make it last. .

lets see.....its from the soviet era, and it was moth-balled and not even operable prior to when work on it began to re-vitalize and modernize it

A little background first. The Gorshkov is one of four carriers built by the erstwhile Soviet Union during the Seventies at the height of the Cold War. The first three, the Kiev, the Minsk and the Novorossyisk, saw operational service in the Soviet Navy during the late Seventies and the Eighties.

When the Cold War ended the Russians no longer could sustain a fleet with so many carriers and they were all sold for scrap in the early Nineties.

The Gorshkov, earlier called the Baku, was the last to be completed and did not become operational until 1986. Her operational career was cut short, however, when a devastating fire crippled the ship. Although she was repaired, the Gorshkov never saw operational service thereafter.

In the late Eighties, the Indian Navy began to look for options to replace the ageing Vikrant and Viraat. The original idea was to build one in India. Various actions were taken towards that goal.

Apparently wanting to get into the act, the Russians offered the Gorshkov to the navy in 1994. The purchase had many difficulties. The ship was far bigger that what the navy was looking for. At 45,000 tons and with a deep draught, the ship was not capable of entering Mumbai harbour, which was the logical place for basing it if the navy wanted it primarily as an air defence ship for the Western Fleet.

The navy also did not have adequate facilities to carry out major repairs. But though the price was more than ten times what the navy had paid for the Viraat, it was still worth consideration at Rs 1,000 crore. Many in the navy were for the deal.

But when the navy dilly-dallied, the Russians hit upon a new gambit.

"We will give you the carrier free, they said. Just take it away and do what you want with it. "

Naval eyes lit up at the word 'free'. When the navy and defence ministry were truly and properly hooked, the Russians slowly let in the rider. You will, of course, need to modify and refit the ship for use in India. We will do it for you. It will only take a couple of years and cost you Rs 3,000 crore.

And of course you will require a squadron or two of our latest carrier-based fighter, the MiG 29K. Cost? Another 6,000 crore. Thus the total cost of this rather doubtful acquisition is anywhere between Rs 6,000 crore and Rs 10,000 crore.

In his first term as India's defence minister, George Fernandes promised to bring in greater transparency in India's arms deals. Yet these remain as opaque and unfathomable today as they ever were. No one can make head or tail out of the Gorshkov purchase. Why is a poor nation so intent on seeing through this exorbitant deal? And where is the Indian Navy, with an annual budget of only 3,000 crore, finding the money to pay for all this? Can the job not be done much more cheaply?

The purchase of the Gorshkov at this price will also bring many other headaches to the navy. Apart from the basing and refitting problems, there will be operational problems. No naval chief will ever be willing to risk such a high-value ship in the Arabian Sea in any conflict with Pakistan. Karwar will not be ready for another 10 years and basing the Gorshkov on the east coast will create other difficulties.

In today's charged atmosphere, a conflict can erupt at short notice and be over before the mighty Gorshkov arrives to deliver her punch. The purchase will also require the navy to mortgage its capital expenditure for the next several years. Indeed, it will be a millstone around the necks of the next two chiefs.

Viewed from all sides, if the prime minister inks the Gorshkov deal during his visit to Moscow, it will be the most illogical purchase ever between India and Russia.

With the Indian economy in the doldrums, or at least not as bright as it once was, the last thing we want is a profligate armed force. The Indian Navy cannot expect the nation to give it everything it wants at the cost of the nation's economy. Alternatively, the navy has to live within its budget. Cheaper alternatives to the Gorshkov must be considered.

Traditionally, naval ships have been painted a shade of dark gray. If the Gorshkov is purchased, the Indian Navy might make an exception and paint the ship white. For the aircraft carrier is bound to be the biggest white elephant in the navy's fleet.

read this also

AFP: Soviet warship turns into India's white elephant

We're desis dude, we even wrap the remote control in plastic

best comment so far in this thread.....

Naxals? they're a menace but in the end they're angry villagers/tribals with homemade weapons, they didn't kill a 100 people in one bombing, they're nothing like the TTP.

yes the death-tolls are different, as TTP is a more sophisticated adversary. But their actions are still alike, and unlike Pakistan --I am not seeing any substantial anti-naxal operations

just from January 4th:


bombed school
Maoists blow up another school building in Orissa | Siasat

targetting politicians
fullstory

using improvised explosives
fullstory

No one cares to listen anyway, to be quite honest. Every country on the planet has rubbished Pakistan's claims of India supporting terrorism in the country.

post some articles.....I'm ignorant on this subject

Kuch hua? Did anyone utter a word against India? Does any country support Pakistan's claim?

it isnt convenient to yet. Wait till withdrawal time. Remember to contact me during this period; so I can say "told you so"

PS: India being used?!?

yes

Nuclear deal < 'frontline ally' ??

still doesnt negate the fact that IAEA officials will be carrying out stringent monitoring and checks of your civilian-run facilities.

i do hope you sign MoU on nuclear safe-guarding. The current breaches at your facilities have some people a bit jittery.



thanks.