India? Another Chernobyl Waiting to Happen?

[rangbaaz]

This reactor has its benifits.The reason why we are goin for it is beacuse they are more efficient.Now i agree with u there have been issues about safety,but our scientists believe that they have been able to overcome those.The reactors that are beeing built may very well be the safest fast breeders ever.
We can only speculate,but scientist's dont

Ok let's talk abt some key points here:

You mentioned that scientists are able to overcome those issues, well you have to have safety systems in place regardless of what void coef you have. Even if you have -ve void coef, that doesn't mean that the reactor won't require safety systems.

Now question arises why am I being against the +ve void coef when the both reactors (whether they have -ve or +ve vc) would require the same safety systems. In this case, safety systems are in place to make sure that reactor power doesn't reach / pass the critical limit.

Having -ve VC would just increase the safety of reactor itself. Anytime there's a case of loss of coolant accident, the design itself would shutdown the reactor, which means this feature is helping other safety systems to suppress the reactor power. Whereas +ve VC would be a burden on safety systems. In that case, safety systems would have to work a lot more to keep the reactor under control. They need to control the original power of the reactor + the increase in power (which is immense in this case) caused by the +ve VC. If this is the case, reactor power would be increase by factors of thousands within a few seconds. That's what happened at Chernobyl. The reactor went out of control just within a few seconds.

The question is why would you put so much burden on the safety systems when, with a better design, you can simply help the safety systems. It's all about the safety. I agree that there are benefits of that reactor but there are always pros and cons of every technology. We just need to compare them and make an educated decision based on the analysis/results.

P.S. I know you hate science :p but it certainly affects our life (if not ours by may be our future generations).

 

[rangbaaz]

This is the first time i have had a 1 on 1 debate with anyone on PDF and its on nuclear tech!lol i used to hate science.
we got a good debate going on here,lets keep it that way

Yes, it's getting very scientific


cheers

 

[Relucent]

The safety systems would have been set up keeping in mind the stress they are gonna face in a situation of void,and moreover the design in itself ensures that a situation of void has minimum probability.Therefore there is no question about over loading them.
Well our scientists believe that this design provides a reasonable amount of security.They would have thought of it a million times before deciding to go ahead with it.
India’s first 40 MWt Fast Breeder Test Reactor (FBTR) attained criticality on 18 October 1985.Our scientists are familier with the working of fast breeders.
And remember development is a never ending process,a lot of lessons have been learnt from past experiences,and in future better and safer reactors will be based upon the knoledge we gain from these.
If it succeeds the glory is ours,if it dosent so are its consiquences.
In this case the chances of glory are more,therefore the dicision to go ahead.
Abt goin into more details,ill be honest i am no scientist.I was studyin taxation when i started with this thread.Let the technicalities be left to the scientists.
All we can do is hope for the best

I gotta go to bed, my moms killing me lol.Hope i have been able to clear your doubts.
stay cool

 

[rangbaaz]

Dude my msg was on the basis of risk factors of something (i.e. the probability of occurrence of something X the consequences)

Anyhow I let you study your taxation

Goodluck

 

[Vassnti]

Koodankulam Nuclear Power Plant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

misleading article spreading lies

I think the article in question is refering to the Kalpakkam reactor.

(DAE). 500MWe Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor (PFBR) is the forerunner of the future fast breeder power reactors and is expected to provide energy security to the country. The PFBR is being built with the design and technology developed at the Indira Gandhi Center for atomic research (IGCAR), also located at Kalpakkam, and is expected to go on stream by 2010.

Not the Koodankulam reactor.

 

[booo]

I think the article in question is refering to the Kalpakkam reactor.

Not the Koodankulam reactor.

Kalpakkam reactor is not Russian its Indian. The author is talking about Russian reactors built in India.

Reactor Core Sodium Void Coefficient
Core void coefficient of reactivity is an important parameter with regard to safety. The whole core net sodium void coefficient is positive and estimated to be 3.7 $. Detailed calculations
show that void coefficient is negative at top regions of core where
boiling is likely to commence under temperature transients. Voiding of
core is highly improbable because of multiple coolant entries preventing blockage in fuel subassemblies and
avoidance of gas entrainment in sodium.
Gas release from failed pin is insignificant from void reactivity considerations. Whole core sodium void coefficient is of concern only in the case of hypothetical core disruptive accident (CDA). The magnitude of void coefficient has a bearing on the magnitude of energy release during CDA. Studies have shown that the energy release is not sensitive if void coefficient is kept below 5$. In view
of this, a positive void coefficient of 3.7$ in the case of PFBR is considered admissible.

http://www.dae.gov.in/ni/nimar04/design.pdf

 

[Join]

Sour grapes...lol

 

[jbond197]

these people don't even know what this term "void coefficient" means, useless to discuss with them. you discuss with those who posses knowledge

OK lets discuss it, please tell me how much positive void coefficient the Indian reactors will have? please do back up any of your claims. I want the numbers so please do not post any BS the reactors will have positive void coefficient or so.

To start with the small 40 MW FBR India had developed didn;t had any positive coefficient so how is any claims regarding positive coefficietn justified. BTW the two guys who wrote the article are not Indian scientists they are American scientists and the reactors in question are being built with Russian collaboration and nobody apart from scientists from two partner countries can have access to the end designs. I hope this will help everybody understand that the article is based on certain assumptions and guesses and obviously is away from reality.

 

[destiny]

Koodankulam Nuclear Power Plant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


VVER - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Void coefficient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


misleading article spreading lies

no buddy PFBR has +ve void coefficient. This type of accident is called Loss of Coolant Accident. The reactor will heat up and the core will melt if this happens.

 

[destiny]

The safety systems would have been set up keeping in mind the stress they are gonna face in a situation of void,and moreover the design in itself ensures that a situation of void has minimum probability.Therefore there is no question about over loading them.
Well our scientists believe that this design provides a reasonable amount of security.They would have thought of it a million times before deciding to go ahead with it.
India’s first 40 MWt Fast Breeder Test Reactor (FBTR) attained criticality on 18 October 1985.Our scientists are familier with the working of fast breeders.
And remember development is a never ending process,a lot of lessons have been learnt from past experiences,and in future better and safer reactors will be based upon the knoledge we gain from these.
If it succeeds the glory is ours,if it dosent so are its consiquences.
In this case the chances of glory are more,therefore the dicision to go ahead.
Abt goin into more details,ill be honest i am no scientist.I was studyin taxation when i started with this thread.Let the technicalities be left to the scientists.
All we can do is hope for the best

I gotta go to bed, my moms killing me lol.Hope i have been able to clear your doubts.
stay cool

Of Course. While designing everything is taken into account even a missile attack! India has a lot of experience of operating fast breeder reactors and has an impeccable record as of now. Due to confidence in this experience India is going for PFBR which is of 500MWe.

 

[destiny]

Ok let's talk abt some key points here:

You mentioned that scientists are able to overcome those issues, well you have to have safety systems in place regardless of what void coef you have. Even if you have -ve void coef, that doesn't mean that the reactor won't require safety systems.

Now question arises why am I being against the +ve void coef when the both reactors (whether they have -ve or +ve vc) would require the same safety systems. In this case, safety systems are in place to make sure that reactor power doesn't reach / pass the critical limit.

Having -ve VC would just increase the safety of reactor itself. Anytime there's a case of loss of coolant accident, the design itself would shutdown the reactor, which means this feature is helping other safety systems to suppress the reactor power. Whereas +ve VC would be a burden on safety systems. In that case, safety systems would have to work a lot more to keep the reactor under control. They need to control the original power of the reactor + the increase in power (which is immense in this case) caused by the +ve VC. If this is the case, reactor power would be increase by factors of thousands within a few seconds. That's what happened at Chernobyl. The reactor went out of control just within a few seconds.

The question is why would you put so much burden on the safety systems when, with a better design, you can simply help the safety systems. It's all about the safety. I agree that there are benefits of that reactor but there are always pros and cons of every technology. We just need to compare them and make an educated decision based on the analysis/results.

P.S. I know you hate science :p but it certainly affects our life (if not ours by may be our future generations).

whatever you have said is exactly right. +ve void coefficent isn't a good thing in reactor. I think the reactor will shut down when there is loss of coolant.

As far as chernobyl is concerned, the operator there bypassed all the safety systems and hence that incident happened

 

[booo]

no buddy PFBR has +ve void coefficient. This type of accident is called Loss of Coolant Accident. The reactor will heat up and the core will melt if this happens.

Reactor Core Sodium Void Coefficient
Core void coefficient of reactivity is an important parameter with regard to safety. The whole core net sodium void coefficient is positive and estimated to be 3.7 $. Detailed calculations
show that void coefficient is negative at top regions of core where
boiling is likely to commence under temperature transients. Voiding of
core is highly improbable because of multiple coolant entries preventing blockage in fuel subassemblies and
avoidance of gas entrainment in sodium.
Gas release from failed pin is insignificant from void reactivity considerations. Whole core sodium void coefficient is of concern only in the case of hypothetical core disruptive accident (CDA). The magnitude of void coefficient has a bearing on the magnitude of energy release during CDA. Studies have shown that the energy release is not sensitive if void coefficient is kept below 5$. In view
of this, a positive void coefficient of 3.7$ in the case of PFBR is considered admissible.

http://www.dae.gov.in/ni/nimar04/design.pdf

canadian CANDU reactors have +ve coefficient. they've been running for years.

CANDU reactors have positive void coefficients that are small enough that the control systems can easily respond to boiling coolant before the reactor reaches dangerous temperatures (see References).

Void coefficient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[destiny]

http://www.dae.gov.in/ni/nimar04/design.pdf

canadian CANDU reactors have +ve coefficient. they've been running for years.

Void coefficient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

yes I know that BWRs like CANDU also have +ve void coefficient but that doesn't mean the reactor is unsafe as I think you implied from my post. The PFBR is fully safe with multiple levels of safety. As I told in my other post that we have a long accident free experience in operating reactors. So no need to worry.

 

[lhuang]

Does India have Heavy Water Reactors?

 

[praveen]

Does India have Heavy Water Reactors?

its the largest producer of heavy water google it out