IN Sea Harriers - How this Old Dog compares with the Subcontinent's Newest

[MiG-21]

Most people are unaware of Indian Navy's Sea Harriers, even though they are serving the IN from 1983 to 2012, and they will be retired around 2014-2015. That's 32 years of service for the Indian Armed forces!! So I hope this topic will help improve awareness about this fine fighter.

The Royal Navy Operated the FA2's while the Indian Navy Operated the FRS.51 Variant. Both of them are more or less the same except in the avionics department.
However the Harriers crash record is not very praise worthy. Of the 29 Harriers bought by the Indian Navy, 17 crashed or were seriously damaged while landing. So there are only 12 Harriers jets in the IN as of Today. That's a crash rate more than the IAF MiG-21s.

In any case, here are some of the Basic Facts of the Indian Navy Harriers-

Empty Weight - 6374kgs
Maximum thrust - 9730kgf(non-Afterburner)
Payload - 3630kgs
Max Speed - Mach 0.96
Service Ceiling - 16,000 m
Ferry range: 3,600km

Compare that with LCA's Specs
Empty Weight - 6560kgs
Maximum thrust - 8660kgs(Afterburner), 9160kgf(Emergency Afterburner) - F404-GE-IN20
Payload - 4000kgs
Max Speed - Mach 1.6 (target Mach 1.8)
Service Ceiling - 15,000 m (target 16km)
Ferry range: 3,000km

Mind you, those are the specs of the Airforce variant, the LCA MK1. The Naval Variant is much heavier and its specs will be spectacularly lower than what is given above. The Harrier's engine doesn't have afterburner and so that speed is the maximum speed with dry thrust, not afterburner. The Airforce's LCA first flew in 2001 whereas the Airforce varient of Harrier flew in 1967! Not to mention the fact that Harriers are VTOL jets, while the rest are CTOL jets.

Just to make it fair, here is the JF-17's Specs
Empty Weight - 6586kgs
Maximum thrust - 8300kgs(Afterburner), 8700kgf(Emergency Afterburner) - RD-93
Payload - 3629kgs
Max Speed - Mach 1.6
Service Ceiling - 16,700 m
Ferry range: 3,480km

The Harriers were upgraded with Elta EL/M-2032 radar with a range of 150km(sorry no accompanying RCS). The aircraft is BVR capable with Israeli Derby missile(range of 50km).

Like the JF-17 and J-10, the harrier too most probably can't fire the BVR missile from its inner most wing Hardpoint. But to compensate that, the Harrier like the J-10, carriers 2 Derbys on a dual rack, so it can carry a total of 4 BVR missiles, just like the J-10. However this capability of J-10 has entered operational service after testing is completely over is still not known. The JF-17 can only carry 2 BVR missiles at the moment. But is the BVR integration of JF-17 fully complete is still not known. The Dual racks most probably will make its way to JF-17 but it will surely take some time.

Harrier with Dual racks

So with just 3 years to go for retirement after 30 years of service, Harriers are still a worth opponent after all these years, and most definitely not something to be taken lightly.

 

[sexy gun]

basically u are saying IN will give a bloody nose to PAF

 

[T90TankGuy]

any one interested in defense does know about the harrier mate. and how they equipped two of our aircraft carriers in the late eighties.

 

[black_jack]

Sea Harriers intercepting ....

 

[Abingdonboy]

Most people are unaware of Indian Navy's Sea Harriers, even though they are serving the IN from 1983 to 2012, and they will be retired around 2014-2015. That's 32 years of service for the Indian Armed forces!! So I hope this topic will help improve awareness about this fine fighter.

The Royal Navy Operated the FA2's while the Indian Navy Operated the FRS.51 Variant. Both of them are more or less the same except in the avionics department.
However the Harriers crash record is not very praise worthy. Of the 29 Harriers bought by the Indian Navy, 17 crashed or were seriously damaged while landing. So there are only 12 Harriers jets in the IN as of Today. That's a crash rate more than the IAF MiG-21s.

In any case, here are some of the Basic Facts of the Indian Navy Harriers-

Empty Weight - 6374kgs
Maximum thrust - 9730kgf(non-Afterburner)
Payload - 3630kgs
Max Speed - Mach 0.96
Service Ceiling - 16,000 m
Ferry range: 3,600km

Compare that with LCA's Specs
Empty Weight - 6560kgs
Maximum thrust - 8660kgs(Afterburner), 9160kgf(Emergency Afterburner) - F404-GE-IN20
Payload - 4000kgs
Max Speed - Mach 1.6 (target Mach 1.8)
Service Ceiling - 15,000 m (target 16km)
Ferry range: 3,000km

Mind you, those are the specs of the Airforce variant, the LCA MK1. The Naval Variant is much heavier and its specs will be spectacularly lower than what is given above. The Harrier's engine doesn't have afterburner and so that speed is the maximum speed with dry thrust, not afterburner. The Airforce's LCA first flew in 2001 whereas the Airforce varient of Harrier flew in 1967! Not to mention the fact that Harriers are VTOL jets, while the rest are CTOL jets.

Just to make it fair, here is the JF-17's Specs
Empty Weight - 6586kgs
Maximum thrust - 8300kgs(Afterburner), 8700kgf(Emergency Afterburner) - RD-93
Payload - 3629kgs
Max Speed - Mach 1.6
Service Ceiling - 16,700 m
Ferry range: 3,480km

The Harriers were upgraded with Elta EL/M-2032 radar with a range of 150km(sorry no accompanying RCS). The aircraft is BVR capable with Israeli Derby missile(range of 50km).

Like the JF-17 and J-10, the harrier too most probably can't fire the BVR missile from its inner most wing Hardpoint. But to compensate that, the Harrier like the J-10, carriers 2 Derbys on a dual rack, so it can carry a total of 4 BVR missiles, just like the J-10. However this capability of J-10 has entered operational service after testing is completely over is still not known. The JF-17 can only carry 2 BVR missiles at the moment. But is the BVR integration of JF-17 fully complete is still not known. The Dual racks most probably will make its way to JF-17 but it will surely take some time.

Harrier with Dual racks

So with just 3 years to go for retirement after 30 years of service, Harriers are still a worth opponent after all these years, and most definitely not something to be taken lightly.

Your pint about the N-LCA having "spectacularly" lower specs to AF version is incorrect. The N-LCAs that enter service will be based on the Mk.II version adpmd as such will have a more powerful GE engine so the specs will not be significantly different to Mk.I AF versions.

And why no inclusion of the Mig-29K which is in service and is actually replacing the Harriers?

 

[GR!FF!N]

i saw a great documentary on Harrier many years ago..it showed about Folkland war.may criticised Harrier for being slow and Migs were fast.The Harrier pilots said.."as fast they come to us,they will be shot down faster"..exactly that thing happened.in Folkland war,Harrier shot down Migs without a single casualty..

 

[atulya]

at all the case it will be far more better than j7 or jft or mig 21 and may be equal to mig 29...(In my opinion)

 

[Fazlu]

Replacing the Harierrs are the MiG29k. Please post an appropriate comparison including the MiG.

 

[cyphercide]

More than half the fleet has crashed on routine sorties, not even on battle scenarios,so it's better not to sing praises on the platform....ever again since the 80's.

 

[subincb]

i saw a great documentary on Harrier many years ago..it showed about Folkland war.may criticised Harrier for being slow and Migs were fast.The Harrier pilots said.."as fast they come to us,they will be shot down faster"..exactly that thing happened.in Folkland war,Harrier shot down Migs without a single casualty..

I don't think Argentina had any Migs.. They lost one Mirage III to sea harrier. Harriers stand no chance again Mig-29's. From what I know its one of the hardest aircraft to handle. (I know someone who crashed 2 in IN Navy both due to aircraft fault and ejected safely)

 

[cyphercide]

^^^ Oye yaar, this is something routine carried out by our members to remind the Pakistanis that our junk is as good as their cutting edge tech. Take it with a pinch of salt,Dear Sir.

 

[sancho]

So with just 3 years to go for retirement after 30 years of service, Harriers are still a worth opponent after all these years, and most definitely not something to be taken lightly.

Only if we ignore that the LCA and JF 17 have better flight performance, lower RCS, bigger noses for radars with bigger diameter and longer detection range, the better avionics and so on. Having the same radar and BVR missile as LCA doesn't make it as capapable!
Today they are more useful in the strike role like we have seen in Afghanistan and Libya and would have formed a good mix with INs Mig 29K, even better than N-LCA.

 

[cyphercide]

Only if we ignore that the LCA and JF 17 have better flight performance, lower RCS, bigger noses for radars with bigger diameter and longer detection range, the better avionics and so on. Having the same radar and BVR missile as LCA doesn't make it as capapable!
Today they are more useful in the strike role like we have seen in Afghanistan and Libya and would have formed a good mix with INs Mig 29K, even better than N-LCA.

Aint yet with all your graciousness, you do not pit them the against VSTOL fighters of the 80's...

 

[GR!FF!N]

I don't think Argentina had any Migs.. They lost one Mirage III to sea harrier. Harriers stand no chance again Mig-29's. From what I know its one of the hardest aircraft to handle. (I know someone who crashed 2 in IN Navy both due to aircraft fault and ejected safely)

my bad..yup..those were mirages..i'm finding a video on that..will post later..

 

[lilaspr]

Why Mig 29 is not included in this list... i guess in coming years Mig 29 will be the front line plane for Indian navy.