In a first, Indian tank brigades to defend China border

[Xeric]

@Xeric
About taking things on face value is right. We can't assume it.

About fingering China,
I think China already set the wheel in motion when they invested billions in railways and roads in Tibet for fast deployment of troops and armored divisions near Indo-China border within few days/ I think India is being more reactive in this case. Stronger borders have become necessity of peace.

i concur.

But then the right reason cited for positioning your forces against China should be what you have said above, not that india dont consider Pakistan as an adversay now. Also there is a thing for the comsumption of the Western audience, that hey see, we are there to counter China for you guys, if need be, if you know what i mean.

About shifting from Pakistan to China,
in case of war with China, we have to do it as China is way tougher to counter than Pakistan. If Pakistan tries to take advantage of it, other players will jump jump in case especially US. Nuclear threat can work in case of Pakistan not China. BUT, any confrontation resulting in intensive skirmish between India and China will destabilize the entire region along with massively affecting world economy.

Again correct.

But one should keep in mind that when an adversary is a nuclear power, you cant just remove it from the threat equation. One cannot be 'tougher' or 'weaker' than the other if both are capable of playing up the nuke card.

Also, the statements by your chief like 'India is Ready for Two Front War' and the doctrine of Cold Start doesnt help you guys in this matter either, as it only strenthen our belief that india still is obsessed with Pakistan. So the Pakistan factor is always there, though india dont like to talk of it lately.

Now i know, jingiotics will argue that these statements and doctrines are just there to keep Pakistan on toes and keep us guessing about your real plans, but the reality is different.

 

[Armstrong]

@Xeric
About taking things on face value is right. We can't assume it.

About fingering China,
I think China already set the wheel in motion when they invested billions in railways and roads in Tibet for fast deployment of troops and armored divisions near Indo-China border within few days/ I think India is being more reactive in this case. Stronger borders have become necessity of peace.

About shifting from Pakistan to China,
in case of war with China, we have to do it as China is way tougher to counter than Pakistan. If Pakistan tries to take advantage of it, other players will jump jump in case especially US. Nuclear threat can work in case of Pakistan not China. BUT, any confrontation resulting in intensive skirmish between India and China will destabilize the entire region along with massively affecting world economy.

I will lead an army of Buttts to the border myself and then well see whose 'way tougher to count' !

P.S Aur kaisaa hai itnai time se nazar nahin ayaaa !

P.P.S Yeh jo tumhari Indo-Pak Behan hai na (Ajtr) is ko samjhaa du ke rest kareii warnaa hubby ko abhi mein phone lagaaa dunn ga ! Koi Zainab bittyaaa ka hi khiyaal rakh laitaa hai !

 

[Paan Singh]

Though i agree with what you have said, but then you ahev self-contradicted a few times in your post.

One one hand you say that as india can raise 'new' forces so the ones already against Pakistan should stay there but then you also say that as you guys consider Pakistan incapable to taking indian territory (as if Akhnud Bharat was our brain child) so the forces are no more required and can move up towards China.

Please make up your mind for once.

If india will increase force structure towards China by getting into new raising and without reducing the force projection on its western side, it will invariably mean that you guys are concerned with Pakistan.

But then if you consider Pakistan 'incapable' of a certain action that is a figment of an indian mind, then why dont you guys just shift the paraphernalia from the West to the North and leave us alone?

One one hand you say that as india can raise 'new' forces so the ones already against Pakistan should stay there but then you also say that as you guys consider Pakistan incapable to taking indian territory (as if Akhnud Bharat was our brain child) so the forces are no more required and can move up towards China.

Forces needs to be kept towards pakistan coz pakistan have suicidal attitude unlike china and there are different standards of enemies too.You are managed by army who can do anything to hide its failures or to rule country.
Yes,its also certain that you cant get an inch but india too dont consider P0k as pakistani part and standard of issues towards pakistan are different from china.

 

[DARKY]

Though i agree with what you have said, but then you ahev self-contradicted a few times in your post.

One one hand you say that as india can raise 'new' forces so the ones already against Pakistan should stay there but then you also say that as you guys consider Pakistan incapable to taking indian territory (as if Akhnud Bharat was our brain child) so the forces are no more required and can move up towards China.

Please make up your mind for once.

If india will increase force structure towards China by getting into new raising and without reducing the force projection on its western side, it will invariably mean that you guys are concerned with Pakistan.

But then if you consider Pakistan 'incapable' of a certain action that is a figment of an indian mind, then why dont you guys just shift the paraphernalia from the West to the North and leave us alone?

They have been trying to make the Army more mobile--modern and flexible to address the two front scenario.
C-17, CJ-130 etc are being ordered in big numbers... Besides improving the transport system by laying rail line and making tunnels through the hills... in order to improve mobility and transport.
The position of Pakistan is a matter of concern... had it been 80s.. it were better off... today things are out of control there... hence more part of the force is dedicated towards Pakistan.

China is more stable and time can be taken in order to improve the position on the Indo-Chinese border... as for your constant argument..i.e... can India make its troops stationed towards west move and take position towards East is flawed in-itself..... the East hardly gives area for such heavy deployment... the Chinese have a large Tibetan pleatue on their side... hence they can deploy are large amount of force... same cannot be said for India.. which has Himalayas... on their side... hence more emphasis is being made on the ability to transport or mobilize the troops upto the borders... Unless our troops move inside Tibet... 300 000-400 000 troops cannot be deployed on the Indian side.

About the armor brigade... two are just a beginning and they would have as many as 6 in near future... there were tanks deployed in Laddakh region previously... this is new as it talks of moving the front line T-90S tanks.

 

[Xeric]

Okay, so after getting valuable input from so many indian friends i can safely say that we all agree that india is indeed obsessed with Pakistan and in turn do keep a hefty presence of land forces poised againt it.

Guud!

Tomorrow we will learn how india keeps its Air Power poised against Pakistan.

 

[rashtriya.rifles]

Okay, so after getting valuable input from so many indian friends i can safely say that we all agree that india is indeed obsessed with Pakistan and in turn do keep a hefty presence of land forces poised againt it.

Guud!

Tomorrow we will learn how india keeps its Air Power poised against Pakistan.

Don't know about us.. but u sure as hell need some learning ASAP

 

[KRAIT]

@ajtr
Hope you remember what was happening in 1971. US USSR and China all were set to interfere. US even asked China to help Pakistan but it was Indira Gandhi and our Top Army brass perfect timing of launching the attack in winter which blocked the passages through which China could have helped. USSR deployed its SSBN to deter USS Enterprise which was going to interfere. USSR told China not to interfere. The situation might have been completely different if these "assumptions" weren't considered by our policy makers.

According to you, Pakistan should have fought its own war back then and not asked US and China to enter in the equation. You an think of the outcome.

I agree with you that we have to fight our own war, we always do, but not using diplomatic measures and allies on time of crisis is idiotic.

Foreign policy is not made on emotions and I have said it many times. You invest, make pacts both defense and economic, cultural exchange for certain reasons. If you don't understand it, may be more time should be invested.

Fight your own war but sometimes its better to hire guns for your work, Its more beneficial. That's called sound tactics and call, one meeting can change the world.

When Chamberlain met Hitler, he failed to spot the tell and call his bluff when Hitler told him that Germany won't attack UK. It is a well known meeting specially mentioned in Importance of Behavior Analysis and Lie Detection techniques.

So if any confrontation do occur, one call to Washington or Moscow can avoid war, loss of lives and billions of money going down the drain.

 

[Paan Singh]

@ajtr
Hope you remember what was happening in 1971. US USSR and China all were set to interfere. US even asked China to help Pakistan but it was Indira Gandhi and our Top Army brass perfect timing of launching the attack in winter which blocked the passages through which China could have helped. USSR deployed its SSBN to deter USS Enterprise which was going to interfere. USSR told China not to interfere. The situation might have been completely different if these "assumptions" weren't considered by our policy makers.

According to you, Pakistan should have fought its own war back then and not asked US and China to enter in the equation. You an think of the outcome.

I agree with you that we have to fight our own war, we always do, but not using diplomatic measures and allies on time of crisis is idiotic.

Foreign policy is not made on emotions and I have said it many times. You invest, make pacts both defense and economic, cultural exchange for certain reasons. If you don't understand it, may be more time should be invested.

Fight your own war but sometimes its better to hire guns for your work, Its more beneficial. That's called sound tactics and call, one meeting can change the world.

When Chamberlain met Hitler, he failed to spot the tell and call his bluff when Hitler told him that Germany won't attack UK. It is a well known meeting specially mentioned in Importance of Behavior Analysis and Lie Detection techniques.

So if any confrontation do occur, one call to Washington or Moscow can avoid war, loss of lives and billions of money going down the drain.

But now mosco n washington are both with us now where pakistan call

 

[trendmaker1]

After China’s military build up, India to deploy artillery along NE borders | Firstpost


Against the backdrop of Chinese military build-up along its boundary with India, the Army is planning to deploy artillery and tank brigades along the borders in northern and northeastern regions.

In recent times, the force has also proposed to increase its strength by one lakh soldiers along with the raising of a Mountain Strike Corps.

To upgrade the fighting capabilities in the region, the plan is to set up armoured brigades with Russian-origin tanks and Infantry Combat Vehicles in the Ladakh and northeastern region, Army sources said here.

The Army is also planning to deploy two independent armoured brigades in Uttarakhand and Ladakh. As part of the plans to upgrade military strength, an additional 10,000 troops are planned to be deployed in the

Andaman and Nicobar Islands where the Army currently has an amphibious brigade.

The modernisation and expansion plan also includes setting up of new airstrips and helipads in remote locations around the Chinese boundary.

After a major military infrastructure buildup by China in its territory, India has been taking a large number of steps to develop its own capabilities.

It has been building strategic roads along the border with China and has deployed its supersonic BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles in Arunachal Pradesh and the Su-30MKIs at bases in Assam.

It has also started revamping its old air strips in Ladakh and the northeast for operations of both transport and fighter aircraft from there.

PTI

 

[trendmaker1]

http://twocircles.net/2012sep17/sri_lanka_no_stage_indiachina_rivalry_envoy.html


New Delhi : Amid New Delhi's concerns over growing military ties between Beijing and Colombo, Sri Lanka's envoy Prasad Kariyawasam has said there is no zero-sum game between India and China. He said his country will not be reduced to a stage for the two rising Asian powers to play out their "rivalry".

"We are not in the habit of looking at our relations with India and China as a zero-sum game," the envoy told IANS in an interview here.

"We will not allow our land or sea to be used for any inimical purpose by one country against the other," the envoy said.

Kariyawasam was responding to a question on the recent visit of Chinese Defence Minister Gen. Liang Guanglie to India, which saw the two sides declaring their resolve to enhance defence cooperation in different areas, including non-traditional security.

The visit was preceded by a slew of announcements that included China pledging $100 million for the construction of facilities in Sri Lanka army camps to be set up in the the north and east, and around $600 million for phase II of the Hambantota port project, envisaged as an international hub to consolidate Sri Lanka's status as a container trans-shipment centre in South Asia.

The envoy rejected concerns raised by sections of the strategic community in India about Colombo's growing military and economic ties with Beijing, especially after the end of the war with the rebel Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam. Security analysts were concerned that the heightened China-Sri Lanka cooperation in military and commercial matters could be detrimental to New Delhi's interests in the island nation.

"Why should there be rivalry? We want to use the best commercial opportunities that emanate from the growing economies of both India and China," the envoy said.

In anticipation of India's concerns, Gen Liang had clarified during his visit to Sri Lanka that China's military ties with the island nation were not targeted at any third country.

The envoy underlined that Sri Lanka was just trying to leverage new opportunities thrown up by the rise of India and China and wanted to retain its historic role as a hub of trade in the Indian Ocean region.

"Sri Lanka wants to be a hub of trade in the Indian Ocean, like we always have been in history. The first country to benefit from this approach will be India," he said.

"India and China are today the most powerful and leading countries in Asia. They have managed their relationship without much difficulty.

"Our expectation is that these powers will have the capacity to manage their relations in such a way that the Indian Ocean will remain a zone of peace, a region of peace. That's how Sri Lanka views the Indian Ocean and our relations with our close friend and neighbour India and our friend China."

Underscoring the special relationship between India and Sri Lanka that is rooted in history and culture, the envoy said that the fates of the two neighbours were linked.

"If India is in trouble, we will be in trouble. If Sri Lanka is in trouble, India will be in trouble," he said, plainly.

The envoy's assurances, however, will not calm apprehensive analysts in India.

Chinese military participation in the Sri Lanka joint services exercise "Cormorant III," which started Sep 10 and will go on till Sep 25 in Eastern Vakarai in the Eastern Province has only added to the concerns.

Troops from China, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Pakistan and the Maldives are participating in "Cormorant III,". While Indian troops are not participating, it is an exercise Indian observers will keenly watch.

 

[dearone4u_22]

Okay, so after getting valuable input from so many indian friends i can safely say that we all agree that india is indeed obsessed with Pakistan and in turn do keep a hefty presence of land forces poised againt it.

Guud!

Tomorrow we will learn how india keeps its Air Power poised against Pakistan.

India need heavy presence there to check the cockroaches that crosses the border to spread terrorism & smack them

 

[KRAIT]

@Xeric
You are right about playing tune of neutrality with slight tilt to the West. West is important for India more than ever because our economy is dependent more on west than China. Russia is always in the equation and will happily play middle role between India and China. All these statements are for general masses who don't read and research and understand geo-politics like you or anyone on this forum do. For them govt. statement is the absolute truth. They care more about watching Indo-Pak match then India buying 126 Rafale.

About nuke card.
Yes, there is no one weaker and tougher but in coming decades the scenario might change due to deployment of ABM systems and that will push Pakistan to build more. Same is for India regarding China. Overwhelming the enemy with missiles is the best attack. Sharp acceleration to nuclear threshold is always there due to sensitivity. That's why India and Pakistan initiated measures to avoid sudden approach to nuke trigger due to any reason.

Cold Start is already debunked. Tactical nukes of Pakistan will be the best attack for fast advancing IA. Two front war is for avoiding protest against defense spending otherwise opposition can use this increase against the ruling govt. They will say millions of people are dying and we are buying plane worth millions.

As for obsession of Pakistan. It has been good alternative to unite people in time of crisis. Hatred for and threat of India, has been used in Pakistan to come to power. India justifies its troops in Kashmir even when IA is getting tainted with increasing number of suicides by soldiers, rapes, extra-judicial killings etc. People in rest of the India don't care. For them, New Delhi is India. J&K, NE and Naxalite affected region means nothing for most of these people.

 

[Xeric]

@Xeric
You are right about playing tune of neutrality with slight tilt to the West. West is important for India more than ever because our economy is dependent more on west than China. Russia is always in the equation and will happily play middle role between India and China. All these statements are for general masses who don't read and research and understand geo-politics like you or anyone on this forum do. For them govt. statement is the absolute truth. They care more about watching Indo-Pak match then India buying 126 Rafale.

i wont say much about it because that's your internal issue, but would only add that there's much more than 'our economy is dependent more on west than China' and i am sure a person like your knowldege must be fully aware of it.

About nuke card.
Yes, there is no one weaker and tougher but in coming decades the scenario might change due to deployment of ABM systems and that will push Pakistan to build more.

And why do you think we test fired another Babur today?

Same is for India regarding China. Overwhelming the enemy with missiles is the best attack. Sharp acceleration to nuclear threshold is always there due to sensitivity. That's why India and Pakistan initiated measures to avoid sudden approach to nuke trigger due to any reason.

Yaar, there wouldnt have been any need for these measures if it had not been for india to opt for a 'Limited War' strategy per se.

But know you there are people on both the sides who cant just stay put.

After we both went nuclear, the common understanding was that both india and Pakistan can go there way and let each other live, but with issues like TFW, Ltd War, CS etc, things got complicated. Though you still say that it was for pubic consumption and i beg to differ.

Cold Start is already debunked.

Debunked, may be.

Still probabale, yes.

War games are a seperate thing, but exercising those war games is entirely different.

Tactical nukes of Pakistan will be the best attack for fast advancing IA.

Correct, but tac nukes were an answer to your strategy, not a first from our side.

So, yes, CS did have an influcne on our thinking and hence my point of debate here.

Two front war is for avoiding protest against defense spending otherwise opposition can use this increase against the ruling govt. They will say millions of people are dying and we are buying plane worth millions.

As for obsession of Pakistan. It has been good alternative to unite people in time of crisis. Hatred for and threat of India, has been used in Pakistan to come to power. India justifies its troops in Kashmir even when IA is getting tainted with increasing number of suicides by soldiers, rapes, extra-judicial killings etc. People in rest of the India don't care. For them, New Delhi is India. J&K, NE and Naxalite affected region means nothing for most of these people.

i think i have answered these, above.

 

[trendmaker1]

@Xeric
You are right about playing tune of neutrality with slight tilt to the West. West is important for India more than ever because our economy is dependent more on west than China. Russia is always in the equation and will happily play middle role between India and China. All these statements are for general masses who don't read and research and understand geo-politics like you or anyone on this forum do. For them govt. statement is the absolute truth. They care more about watching Indo-Pak match then India buying 126 Rafale.

About nuke card.
Yes, there is no one weaker and tougher but in coming decades the scenario might change due to deployment of ABM systems and that will push Pakistan to build more. Same is for India regarding China. Overwhelming the enemy with missiles is the best attack. Sharp acceleration to nuclear threshold is always there due to sensitivity. That's why India and Pakistan initiated measures to avoid sudden approach to nuke trigger due to any reason.

Cold Start is already debunked. Tactical nukes of Pakistan will be the best attack for fast advancing IA. Two front war is for avoiding protest against defense spending otherwise opposition can use this increase against the ruling govt. They will say millions of people are dying and we are buying plane worth millions.

As for obsession of Pakistan. It has been good alternative to unite people in time of crisis. Hatred for and threat of India, has been used in Pakistan to come to power. India justifies its troops in Kashmir even when IA is getting tainted with increasing number of suicides by soldiers, rapes, extra-judicial killings etc. People in rest of the India don't care. For them, New Delhi is India. J&K, NE and Naxalite affected region means nothing for most of these people.

i agree with ur overall thinking...!!!

people in india do think about rest of the country. they even doesn't lack the will power to change the situation.

problem is that they avoid taking responsibility till the problem starts disturbing themselves individually..

 

[Storm Force]

80% of india,s military is focused. orientated, towards Pakistan ...

100% CORRECT and any sensible person with half brain will understand why this is the case.

India is and has AND ALWAYS will be PREPARED for a FAR MORE LIKELY border confrontation with pakistan then it ever will be with CHINA.

indo china relations are no where near as hostile or intense as that between indo pakistan.

IT MAKES SENSE TO HAVE 80% FOCUS on the region where trouble is more likely